MardiganX

What Act are you in?

This might be a stupid question, but why would Rocksteady focus on Suicide Squad as the protagonists and the Justice League as the antagonists in a game? I agree the image is fantastic and raises some really interesting questions about the direction of this game but why have JL as the bad guys when it would be much better to play as them. Is there a license issue limiting what Rocksteady can work with? The only, ONLY Superman based game that has been any good is The Death of Superman on the SNES (and even that was just Streets of Rage in a Superman skin) so the thought of Rocksteady, off the back of the industry leading work they did with the Arkham games, having Superman in a game and not being playable is actually quite sad. But then its Rocksteady, so I have faith!

Pretty much the same thoughts from me @teddymeow An incredible game that coming straight off the back of LoUII had an almost impossible act to follow but did it with some absolutely beautiful visuals, brilliant gameplay and bangin outifts. I will continue playing it for hours and while I may eventually Platinum it (it would be my first), that would be through coincidence rather than design. Post Act III thoughts - A GOTY contender that was on a hiding to nothing with the timing of its release alongside LoUII but confidently delivers a fun to play and absolutely stunning visual experience.

I dont think it does. Clearing an Act just opens up the locations of left over Mongol camps, forts, etc. but the fog is still present on areas you haven't been. Its only when you fully liberate all the areas that the fog completely disappears... I think I finished the main story last night. Played on lethal from about half way through Act II until the end and every single battle, encounter, assassination party and duel was fantastic. Will post more thoughts later but if it wasnt for LoU II this would comfortably be my GOTY.

I'll go further. I'll step out, because this started with a discussion around Ellie apparently being robbed of the 'choice' she wanted around what to do with her immunity and is now whatever suits you to justify further replies.

She is unconscious from the point the Fireflies find Joel and her in the sewer until she wakes up in the back of the car. How the fuck does she know why Joel took her out of there? There is no disputing that Ellie has doubts over what Joel tells her but its not because she has some hidden knowledge that she doesn't reveal to Joel.

If you took that from the end of the first game then fair enough. But it feels like a hell of a stretch for that moment to be Ellie running things through in her end to the point where she dies, especially when at at point she has no idea that the procedure to make a cure would in fact kill her. Again, its still a different 'choice' from what was discussed earlier where it was about her being able to choose what to do with her immunity.

I got it It took a while to re-set my 'approach' to the game as I had forgotten how tactical you really have to be with the power consumption, stealth, etc. whereas most FPS just have you running and gunning like a madman. Even with all the incredible powers and weapons you can die very quickly due to the very clever AI. Its looks delightful on the Switch and playing mostly handheld the sticks do take a lot of getting used to with the aim-assist being very light but its paying off now a few hours in. I will never tire of hearing "MAXIMUM ARMOUR" and "CLOAK ENGAGED" as I move about the jungle picking off confused and terrified soldiers

Which is the exact thing @Talk Show Host and I had different views on, but it was never about Ellie doubting having a choice about what to do with her immunity. That bit you refer to is Ellie asking herself what she is going to do with the fact that she doesn't quite believe what Joel tells her. In the end she decides to trust him, to put her faith in him because whether she blindly believes him or chooses to ignore the doubts, the pain of confronting it at that point would be devastating to them both. Plus that is a different 'choice' you are now referring to. Where before the 'choice' was about Ellie wanting to decide what to do with her immunity, as if she is the one that controls the decision. Now you are saying the 'choice' is Ellie deciding whether or not to trust Joel or to go back and giver herself up for the Fireflies. Those are two very different things.

All this speculation about what Ellie did and didn't want is irrelevant. At no point in all the conversations with Joel or anyone else does she say anything about wanting a 'choice' or having it taken away from her. If that is what she wanted (The 'choice' between dying to save humanity or saying "fuck you world" and living) why didn't she say that? I get all the points about survivors guilt and how important her immunity could have been to the world but its never portrayed as there being a 'choice' she was robbed of. Its the act of dying to save humanity and her life meaning something that she repeatedly refers to having had taken away from her, not that she lost the ultimate decision over what to do with it. To say that Ellie deep down wanted a choice about what to do with her immunity suggests there is a part of her that would have told the Fireflies "thanks guys, but I'm just going to pass and carry on living a miserable existence while the world burns". The ending of the first game is so good because Joel makes that selfish choice that Ellie as a person in any stage of her life would never have made. It is what sets her apart from him as a character and what makes her almost becoming Joel in the sequel so important. @Talk Show Host and I discussed this exact thing at length before the sequel was released, that everything we have known and have seen of Ellie in the first game all but confirms that there is no 'choice' to make for her. She would simply sacrifice herself and its that fact which is fundamental to her entire journey across both games. Of course, you can insinuate (and that's what it is) that as a typical human being she would question herself over what to do, but nothing about her at any point in either game suggests she would hesitate to give her life to save someone she loved, let alone the entire world.

What was 'destroyed' has absolutely nothing to do with the Fireflies in Ellie's mind. It has everything to do with Joel robbing Ellie of the one chance she had for her life and her immunity to matter and for it to mean something. Whether the Fireflies would have given her the choice or simply killed her does not matter to Ellie. The Fireflies, either by letting Ellie choose or by killing her before she woke were going to give Ellie what she wanted... for her life to have mattered. In Ellie's mind, either as a young girl or the mature, slightly fucked up woman we meet in the sequel the Fireflies were her one chance to make a difference, to matter, to mean something, basically all the shit she says all the way through the story and Joel took that away from her.

Ellie's fundamental desire is that she wants / wanted her immunity to mean something. She says this and similar things on several occasions throughout the story. The fireflies killing her to create a cure is irrelevant for her as them doing that would give her exactly what she wants / wanted. In her own words her '"life would have mattered". There are multiple and repeated signs that Ellie had already made her choice and that choice is she would be willing to do "whatever it takes" for her journey and immunity to mean something. The fact Joel took that away from her and then lied about it for years is the only thing that matters to her.

Ellie isn't pissed off about not having a choice. She is angry at Joel for not letting her 'make a difference' as her sacrifice would have meant something. She says something along these exact lines both in the flashback when he tells her what really happened and then again on the porch. The fireflies were actually going to give her that, but Joel took that away and lied to her about it.

This is the overarching point that seems to be getting missed. Ellie's revenge and Abby's redemption path's are internal to the wider path... Ellie forgiving Joel. The entire story, from the moment Ellie says "Ok" at the end of the original game, to the moment Joel sitting on the porch flashes in Ellie's mind as she is about kill Abby is the real 'path'. Abby's path is effectively a self contained revenge and redemption story wrapped up inside the bigger picture and her actions actually take Ellie away from what she always really needed for her to be at peace... until she sees Joel on that porch again Ellie remembers that night before Joel died she opened herself up to forgiving him and its that memory that saves them all.