kensei

ARRRGHH! THAT'S. THE. POINT. What we are saying is that in 1-2 gens time, the next jump isn't more pronounced, because of diminishing returns. It might be a big jump, but relative to everything that has gone before, it is not as pronounced. It might be even a big technical jump, but to 99% of the population if you subjectively measured it (there is science for this, btw), they would be unable to tell any tangible difference. Please, go think on it for half an hour and then come back if you still don't understand. I will attempt a diagram.

DIMINISHING RETURNS! DIMINISHING RETURNS! FUCKING LISTEN TO ME! The point is 5 years will not be enough to make a tangible difference to 99% of the population. No one will care about the extra graphics quality, because it simply won't be PS1 --> PS2. Think along the lines of GC -> Xbox. Those geeks pore over the pictures and yak on a lot, but I can't tell the difference 99% of the time. Hell, half the time I can't even tell with the PS2 version. So 5 years and no-one cares. Or at least the massmarket doesn't, which is the only thing that counts. It might take 10 or 15 or 25 years to have a true quantum leap that actually looks tangibly better to most people. It might take a change in TV technology to facilitate it. Do you understand?

Are there bots? I have 0% chance of playing a LAN or Online, ever, so this is quite important.

Separation of the technology from the game design is perfectly possible, if desired. An ad addedum to all that would be "let the consumer pay". Is ANYONE listening to what I said about hardware gens and diminishing returns? Anyone?

Earthbound. Utterly insane, and utterly brilliant. The Wind Waker: So good, you forget about the graphics. F-Zero GX: Mind bendingly brilliant, especially when you are going "Can't... take.. it anymore...." speeds. Yoshi's Island: The brilliantist graphics ever.

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If you are a geek. If you are a dude on the street, they are both CG animated movies and they both look pretty nice. Why would anyone want to pay for slightluy better. It's as simply as this anyway: if people don't see the difference they aren't buying anything new, and the answer is made up for us. In 2-3 gens we might not be at pure photo realism and physics but i) we'll be close enough for 99% of the population ii) The impotant point you all need to get in your head is that an additional generation is not going to be quatum leap that we are used to, because of diminishing returns. It might take 3 gens, or 5 gens to be at that stage, so in the emantime it makes a lot of sense to have a standard. R&D in software is perfectly capable of continuing without additional hardware. New hardware might open more avenues with new architecture, but it is not going to harm current research in any way shape or form. FFS the basis of computer science was done without any computers.

Christ, I am sick of this. OoT is about the fifth best Zelda game. Hyrule field is one of the most empty, dull chore treks available in a videogame. It has it's moments, but it is incredibly linear, the characters are generally dull and I felt after the umpteen years that it was in development, it could have been so, so much better. Rarely have I felt so underwhelmed. Majora's Mask is everything that OoT should have been. It is stylish, it is genre shifting, it is an absolutle masterpiece. It is Zelda, and yet it is not. Which considering all the motherfucking whining over the (excellent) Wind Waker you'd all appreciate. I have rarely been as awe inspired as I have by this game. I spent the first 3 days I had it just wandering around clock town, trying different things, *interacting*. It is most living breathing digit world anywhere. The goodness is astounding; some of the most touching and moving experiences in any videogame ever. The game is just bursting with ideas. It is such a confident videogame. OoT had some better dungeons, but I think everyone forgets it had some worse ones too. I haven't actually completed it, because I had a nasty accident in which I lost my save files. But I'm glad now, because I'm having tremendous fun with the GC version, and so, so much more to discover.

are you saying in 2 - 3 generations time we'll have photoreal games which behave accurately physically to, capable of producing whatever we think up? i don't think so. besides why struggle with dated hardware when newer hardware allows you to do what you were trying to so in the first place ? What I'm saying is that we'll be close enough. It's the difference between Toy Story and Finding Nemo. To the average dude on the street, it is not going to be a big enough jump to justify spending more money. Diminishing returns kick in. Why then upgrade, save for the sake of it. To say you can now push x more polygons, or have x more objects on the screen?

Or you might be able to find a better workaround, because now you have time for R&D....... The point is that within 2-3 generations the power probably won't be needed and diminishing returns kick in. So you end up with the same game but with slightly higher amounts of detail. This is everyone elses point which you have missed. The extra power is unneeded or cannot be harnessed because humans have a lower limit than machines. You are arguing for increases in power for arguments sake. So now you can zoom in a further 5x. Great. That must be worth the fortune the new machine and software will cost. Even if the PS2 was being utilized 100%, this does not mean that no improvements can be made. There might be more to be done algorithmically, using 100% of the power more efficently. But you'd need time, and R&D.

You are completely missing the point. No I'm not. The ideas you are arguing for are part of the same mentality. Essentially what you and Sprite Machine are arguing for is this: a machine that produces the EXACT same game, with the difference that it can zoom into the skin of orcs where the previous gen couldn't. To all intents and purposes, and to 99% of the population, there is no discernable differnce. And you are asking people to shell out more money for it. Why? Some stupid "bigger, better, more" USP. Let's take Sprite's ideas and apply it to something else: bump-mapping. Bump Mapping is cheating! You should use the extra polys and lighting calculations to do it properly! Of course, in the end it will look identical, but you ahve the satisfaction of knowing that it's all being done properly.

If it where me, I would still put in the teleporting in Halo, even with no technical resources, because being away from the action and your mate is no fun at all. Technology should be less important than design.

You could do it now and it would look awesome. How far do you want to go? Into the pores of the skin? Where do you draw the line? Most people don't need that kind of detail, even less are actually going to go and buy another version because it looks aproximately 33.754% better graphically. You have sucked into the "Bigger, better, more" mentality that is an absolute cancer on gaming, This game is better because it lasts 150 hours. This game has 40,000 levels, this game had 97 character and 48 billion unlockable cars. This game has real time shadows and super-duper refelctions, so it must be the most superior experince around. All of these things are of themselves, completely irrelevant. It's how they effect the game that matters. The point is that we will get to the point where it's the difference between 40,000 orcs or 50,000 orcs and no one will care. 2 generations from now? Seems a pretty good guess. 3? Definately.

1. Monopolies are very, very bad because they control price. Do you honestly think we would be enjoying current rock bottom prices if Sony was the standard? A standard owned by several companies would produce almost perfect competition on hardware, and the price would be dropped real quick. The Hardware is irrelevant in comparsion to the software (I'm assuming here that there will be plenty of different versions with whatever peripherals needed Nintendo control, PSX controller etc), so absolutley no choice is lost. In fact, there is more choice because you'd never, for example, have to put up with 2 controller ports. How exactly can anyone argue against this? 2. Sprite Machine. Uh? Wha? Exactly what are you driving at. Suppose hypothetically, you have a machine that can store GTA 3 entirely in RAM. Why then, instead of completely wasting the resources, do you not use the extra RAM to create an even better game using streaming technology. It is *functionally* the same. The only reason for doing it otherwise is that you have been git by the stupid stick. I fucking hate the 5 TIMES bigger argument. Technically it is easy to make any game bigger, from a creative viewpoint it is bloody hard. Who wants another 80% of shit? Then it gets to the point where it is impossible to complete the game, the cost of development is astronomical... so much. I lament the day when game length became some kind of USP and barometer of quality. Luigi's Mansion got berated because it was too short, one of the most charming games I've had the pleasure to play. Does anyone criticise a three minute pop song because it is not 10 minutes long? Don't be ridiculous. As for, zooming into every orc, form a creative perspective if they are doing that it's because the game is shit. Why aren't they playing it. It's a curio, it's nice, it adds basically fuck all to the wider experience. There are still some technical limits I feel that need surpasses, but within 2-3 generations? 10,000+ times the processing power? I dunno. Personally I think games are being limited by their addiction to technology, how many polys, this lightening effect, that particle effect. Only when it becomes a truly creative medium will it evolve. You geeks are holding it back. 3. Nintendo / MS. I just can't see it. Why has there been no announcements, or even leaks. Things this big tend to get out. Probably a good idea though, it would be nice to be able to play the 3 Xbox games I fancy on my GC .

you wait till you get up to the 40 hour mark. You will have to change Job to something lower, probably the beatsmaster or thief, and syddenlt you have virtualy no offensive attacks and it's like going back 20 hours. The thing is is doesn't make it clear that you HAVE to change jobs to really progress. So i had my little prefered team of 8 or 9 characters and about a dozen others who get sent on the dispatch missions, when suddenly i have to start changing jobs and and bringing my dispatch characters to fights because their stats are too low. you have to level up all your characters or you run into a brick wall of difficulty. so you have to spend hours on stupid clan battles to level everyone up which just gets tedious. Because you have so many characters you have to take them sall into battle at some point, so your not concentrating on the story line, just getting characters up to a descent level. Thus the games has added longeverty that it doesn't really need. It's fun for the 1st 30 hours then suddenly you think, hey i'm having to revive a lot of characters here, and the battles are taking much longer. sometimes i just like to concentrate on the story line and sometimes the side quests. As for FF7 the first time i got to the end i avoided most of the sub quests and just built a kick ass killing squad and finished the game. THEN i went trough and raised the chocobo and killed both of the ultimate weapons and got all the bits and loved every minute of it. I had to use a lot of FAQ's but as i knew the ending anyway i did'nt feel like i was cheating. I enjoyed the noodly bits, rather than feeling like i had to do them all. What i'm trying to say, is that to me, too many games these days just get harder, without much warning. The levels just get rehashed with bigger monsters or more platforms and your left to get on with it. stuff gets hidden away so you have to spend hours waundering around looking for tiny switches and hidden coins. just so the games is longer. I don't want ganes to be easier, just fairer. You know RPG's with instuctions and help if you need it. Shot um ups that don't require the running around for hours looking for the switch that opens the broken door that you could just blow up really. Racing games with inteligent AI that races you not itself, please no more cars that crash infront of you then wizz past you as your stuck in the wall. Also racing games that don't make you start at the back of the grid and have the lead cars half way round the first lap before you cross the start line thus spacing them out into 10 second intervals for you to pass. Cars accelerat at the same speed surely Maybe i'm just getting old, but i think complexity is getting in the way of fun. Perhaps. A tip for Final Fantasy Tactics level building: Chocobos are easily milked. Just get a stage that has a Chocobo in it, kill everything but the Chocobo. Have one character attack the Chocobo within an inch of it's life. It will always cure itself. The other charcaters can attack each other, heal each or use items, all of which will rake in HP. I think having low level characters attacking high level characters will gain from experience and job points. It is still time consuming, but MUCH faster than fighting lots of battles.

Was going to ignore this, but terrifyingly KoTOR could be voted game of the year, and I'd have to leave this forum in disgust. Game Of the Year 1. Zelda: WW 2. Mario Kart Double Dash 3. Metroid Prime

Remind me what that was; I've played LttP recently and can't remember it. Towards the top of the Tower there is xx | | | xx | | : Which is the shittiest diagram ever for a block (x's), a chasm and on the other side a wall with a crack ( in it. You come up the left side, the one with the block on it, and seemingly no way to get across. There's nothing to hookshot onto to get to the side with the wall, you can't jump in Zelda 3 and this is the only room that you can get to the ledge from.

No, it wouldn't work, because it pauses the screen for evryone. After playing Sword of Mana I have went right off the ring system. Far, far too many rings makes it fiddly.

Nope, not even close to Lttp's dungeons. They are complete masterpieces. Atomsphere? As a child I was absolutely terrified of the Dark World forest dungeon. Those fucking weird faces still unnerve me even now. Gannon's Tower is the zenith of Zelda dungeons, requiring you to pull together every single skill that you have acquired during the course of the game. It also features an optional puzzle that is one of the most elegant little puzzles ever to feature in any Zelda game.

Pfff. I hate these OoT love ins. The game is absolutely nothing on Majora's Mask, Lttp or even The Wind Waker. Yup, I must be the only person on the planet that enjoyed WW more than OoT. I never got the "magic" of OoT, it singularly failed to recreate the magic I had with Lttp six years before. After 5 years of endless, pain staking waitng, it was a great let down. The Wind Waker I loved form go. It exudes charm, and I just had more fun. Gannon was the man in the game, he only made short appearances but, for me, stole the show. I really wish they'd give him his own game. Obviously neither comes near Majora's or the daddy Lttp.

Of course you are, absolutely. but you are not within your rights to say the game doesnt well represent the star wars universe. Well I WAS referring to the boredom point. BUT it didn't represent the Starwars universe (as I understand it) at all. It reminded me of the politically correct Star Trek nonsense. As I said the racism stuff really stuck out for me. The word Aliens being used to represent 'non-humans'. Not something I recall from the films which featured all types of creatures living together. Please don't forget the complete disrespect for force lightening, with every man and his dog shooting out lightening bolts. Cheapens the whole thing. You didn't miss much from the rest of the game, it's all rather similar, bar the brief hilarity of HK-47.

What, aside from Animal Crossing? And Pikmin? And Luigi's Mansion? And those weird connectivity Zelda games? Perhaps this generation's new IP isn't as good as the last 2, but that doesn't mean that it isn't there. This thread is filled with complete nonsense. There seesm to be a collective madness whenever Nintendo is discussed, which blots out reality.