Under Defeat (DC)

[Willei]

Touché, I'll have to play Darius some more before I comment further, I don't even remember a lot of that stuff! Looks like G-Darius is the ticket if I can find it, not having 3 screens for the arcade versions bit of a killer!

[Sega Ages]

Border Down does share elements in common with G.Darius, and indeed if you want to go back further, Taito's Metal Black. However the reason is that they were all made by G.Rev (formerly with Taito). Border Down however is its own game and distinctly different enough in important elements (for shooters) like scoring, attack patterns, nuanced border system, and timed boss attack features. The sum of its improvements make it one of the deepest shooters around. (If such gameplay differences don't matter to a person then they're not the market G.Rev is developing for.) There's also a remix mode in there on the DC version, so there's nothing to complain about except maybe the budget art style, imo it's one of the best games on the DC console (and so is Trizeal, esp. for old school / classic shooter fanbase).

Anyway back to the Under Defeat pre-order love thread...

UNDER DEFEAT - those who have the bandwidth can stream a nice video from Sega showing the Naomi action right here

[Mr Spew]

What a cunty post.  I don't get why you'd make a post like that, except for the express purpose of being a cunt.

Mission accomplished, then.

Chaos Field wasn't brilliant, but I don't think many people "came over it", either.  Everyone spotted it as an entirely average/semi-good game from day one.  This one's made by the Border Down guys, I believe - I didn't like Border Down, but it has its fans, so maybe it'll turn out nice.

←

No one came over it, so obviously my post wasn't directed to that. Many people spurted over Trizeal (being a shooter and a new DC game), and it was utter rubbish.

[Triple A]

Poor Darius clone.  Very stylish, little in the way of challenge.  No 'hook', like say it's forbearer or other horizontal shooters.  More horizontals though, they're much more open to tactical, clever game play and make for better attack, enemy and bullet formations in my opinion.

Hyper-mong?  People have been banned for less... Oh yeah, there's a smiley

←

"Border Down = Poor Darius clone"

DOH.

little challenge? you obviously don't understand the mechanics of the game - from this you will know that there most definitely is a hook, more than one perhaps.

[spaceyjase]

Yeah, welcome to just a few days ago. It's from the same developers as G.Darius and copies many ideas from the series. Or do you not read a topic before posting?

Don't understand the mechanics of the game? If I did, does that make it a good game? Nope. Or maybe you're saying that if I did understand it, it would be challenging? Nope, still don't get you.

If I can one credit a game after about 10 hours of play, does that make it of little challenge? I think so. If I'm utterly bored while playing, despite the clever mutli-good guy 'border' system, does that mean I don't get it? An average game is an average game, regardless of system. Sorry if that spoils your exclusive little DC clique you guys seem to be having here.

Plenty of better shooters out there; BD is over-rated and distinctly average in game play department.

[Initial K]

The border down system isn't the hook its the break laser and using it to accumilate a huge score as a counter attack. The challenge of the game isn't in the 1cc, Its from playing the game as a pure score attack and finishing the game from amounting a score that will open 6C or 6D.

If its got average gameplay then we need more average games as I find it far more satifying to play than any other hori thats been released.

[Sabreman]

Never mind all this - what about that Megadrive game?

[spaceyjase]

The border down system isn't the hook its the break laser and using it to accumilate a huge score as a counter attack. The challenge of the game isn't in the 1cc, Its from playing the game as a pure score attack and finishing the game from amounting a score that will open 6C or 6D.

←

Yeah but score attacks are like every game ever. They still gotta be good to warrant a play in the first place. The border down system is cool but my point is the 'hook' is an imitation of G.Darius. The break laser, have you not played G.Darius?

BD lacks innovation while remaining fairly competent, I suppose. I think that was about the gist of the review anyway. Objectivity, despite the shit I write on the forum. Still, OT.

Ooops, massive edit.

[Dimahoo]

G. Darius rocks and is available on Tatio's 2nd arcade collection.

If its not on the Pal release (i forget), it'll be on the second one.

[Jim Miles]

I have to admit, I found Border Down very nice looking but the system didn't grab me enough to pick it out of the sea of "very nice looking" shmups out there. I'm all about Ikaruga, Radiant Silvergun and Gradius V. I suppose magic lord is about to piss on my chips as well (as everyone else's) by saying those three are infinitely worse than Border Down! Or something!

[Sabreman]

Ikaruga, Radiant Silvergun and Gradius V

[Stroker Ace]

No one came over it, so obviously my post wasn't directed to that.  Many people spurted over Trizeal (being a shooter and a new DC game), and it was utter rubbish.

←

Yes, I forgot Trizeal. It wasn't up to much.

[Matt]

Well are they still realising games for the Dreamcast? Surely it would be better to release it on one of the big 3.

[Antiriad2097]

Well are they still realising games for the Dreamcast? Surely it would be better to release it on one of the big 3.

←

The new DC releases are Naomi conversions, requiring almost no conversion costs. Arcade is where these companies make their money, DC conversion is just a small sideline as its so easy. Its also almost guaranteed a certain volume of sales thanks to the fanboys and collectors who have to buy each one regardless of quality.

[Initial K]

Thats such an ignorant view, Heaven forbid there are people that actually enjoy videogames and want to play them as its a genre that is totally under represented.

[Antiriad2097]

Thats such an ignorant view, Heaven forbid there are people that actually enjoy videogames and want to play them as its a genre that is totally under represented.

←

I take it you're not referring to me. All I said is that there will be a minimum sales guarantee.

The good stuff will sell more as the rest of us buy it too... I bought Border Down myself, but skipped Trizeal as I didn't like that one. Under Defeat will get a look fromme, but its no guaranteed sale until I see it.

[nausea]

i'm really looking forward to it.. it looks amazing (just watched videos of it in action) and the positive reports from people that have played the naomi original i jap.. this is a no-brainer, play-asia here i come.

[merge]

is "out"

We demand impressions from someone who have play it

NOW

[Willei]

Give me a couple of hours...

[super_quincy]

Mine's on it's way......

[nausea]

is "out"

We demand impressions from someone who have play it

NOW

ok, my 1st impressions:

what strikes you most are the absolutely STUNNING graphics, certainly one of the most visually impressive shooters on the DC (and on ANY console!). the explosions and pyro are breathtaking, the black smoke looks stunning.. everything is very impressive in the looks department. can't wait to run it through VGA in tate mode. the control is a little tricky the first few minutes, until you get used to it (i prefer the normal control setting), but then it's great and precise. there are a lot of detail and things going on and it feels very polished, but it seems to get hard very quickly, only just managed to get to 3rd stage. i'm not 100% about the scoring, what's best to use and when - the rocket, vulcan etc. i'm sure the guys over at shmups.com has this covered. going to play it more tomorrow, can't wait, it's really good!

[Willei]

Had a few goes on it and so far I find it to be very good, well up to G.Rev's usual standard. The controls seem slightly odd at first as you find your ship isn't shooting at anything you want, but you get used to it pretty quickly and soon enough you're delivering strafing runs on those ground based enemies like a pro. For the record I prefer Reverse mode, the backwards kinda guy that I am!

The graphics are absolutely brilliant, the explosions in particlar are worthy of note. The attention to detail is good and there are lots of nice touches, like smoke and trees getting disturbed by your rotor blades. The end of the second level boss in particular is excellent, the way the Destroyer that you're pummelling breaks and sinks into the sea accompanied by the rain starting up, which makes a nice haze on your rotor blades. The music is very good as well, it really adds to the atmosphere of the game.

You can choose from three different options; Vulcan, Cannon and Rocket. The vulcan is quick to charge and lasts a long time firing rapid shots, the cannon lasts a long time but shoots powerful shots slowly, and the rocket takes a long time to charge and delivers a single mighty rocket that deals bit damage in a wide area - it'll kill most things in a single hit if you're accurate. The option is vulnerable to enemies - not sure if bullets can hit it, but they can certainly ram it out of the sky. You've got to release your rocket in an area where you're sure it's not going to get taken down before it fires, whereas it's not quite so much of a problem for the other shot types.

Interestingly, it also heralds the return of restart points when you continue. You can carry on if you lose a life, but you get dragged back slightly when you have to use another credit. It doesn't seem to be a problem so far, but you've got to do bosses in your single credit or you'll have to start from scratch on the continue - I can imagine that being annoying on the last boss!

The focus of the game seems to be more on survival rather than scoring, there doesn't seem to be anything that sticks out to encourage to you to take risks for score. Didn't spot any kind of multiplier or system either, but such things don't always reveal themselves right away. The hitbox seems slightly odd, it's placed roughly just behind your rotor blades. I've taken a few unexpected deaths when I thought I was pretty safe so far. Other than that, the difficulty seems pretty fair, nothing that seems daft so far as level four. It can be pretty tense at times which is great, you've really got to worry about the homing missiles in the game because of the highly directional weapon fire. Seeing a bunch of missles hurtling towards you and having to turn and blast them while dodging a barrage of normal bullets is highly satisfying. The bullet speed is about average, not too fast or slow. The perspective means you can see bullets as they accelerate towards you which helps you out a lot of the time.

The perspective can hinder you slightly as well though, when you have to move up to the top of the screen (level 3 boss), it's really hard to see what's what since everything is much smaller. Also the game pauses slightly when you get hit, you can see which bullet nabbed you can get a good idea where the hitbox is positioned because of it - and yet I find it slightly annoying for some reason, even though it's quite useful.

There seem to be a few nods to Kyukyoku Tiger/Twin Cobra in there as well. I may be reading too much into it because it's the only other helicopter shmup worth playing, but the enemies that look a little like Chinooks that fire three wide bullets (one of them aimed) and drop weapon items seem to be lifted directly from Kyukyoku Tiger. There's a few other things I spotted as well, but I seem to have forgetten them for now.

I'd say it's definitely worth checking out if you're a shmup fan. I'm going to get it ordered as soon as I can now before it sells out to dickhead speculators*. I don't think it's got a more universal appeal found in games like Gradius V and Ikaruga, so it's likely to leave people who aren't massive fans of the genre pretty cold by my reckoning.

*

[Qazimod]

the explosions in particlar are worthy of note.

Better than 'ruga's?

[Willei]

I'm gonna stick my neck out and say yes to that one - I'm not sure if they're quite as big and meaty, but there's a lot more going on in them and they're more interesting to watch because of it. Still slows down loads when they're happening as well, gives you the extra time to appreciate them!

[IR354Lifeqhybot]

Well, I have spent the whole evening on Under Defeat. All I can say again is wow. It's like an upgraded version of the 19xx games. But sonically and visually over the top. I've only got to the boss on level 1-3 but it is a terrific game. As good as Ikaruga. I love the battle at the end of level 1-2. Just bullet mayhem. This is a fine swansong (part 12) for the DC. This is a game to get and master.

What a stunning few days for games.

[Willei]

Man, the more I play this, the more I love it! It's just so full of interesting features that it's hard not to be impressed by it. The options require a lot more thought than I first imagined, because anything taken out by them gets double points. They've all got different strengths and weaknesses as well. The vulcan options is wicked at taking out small stuff but it takes a long time to deliver maximum damage to larger enemies. It also locks to your ship when it isn't locked to a target, so you can use it to give yourself a slightly wide angle type shot. The cannon does damage but fires slowly, as it tracks enemies is often misses since it's too slow. It seems to hunt enemies down a bit better than the other types though. The rocket does mega damage over a wide area, but it takes a long time to recharge and you have to hold off fire for a long time for it to come out. It's the best choice for bosses, but you can often find yourself in sticky situations when you're trying to get it aimed and shot. All the options shoot at the angle your 'copter is at when fired and they lock to that angle regardless. The options are all impervious to bullets but can be rammed out of the sky in a single hit - the cannon type option will often get rammed down as it's tracking enemies, but this can also be used to your advantage.

Unless I'm just not good enough, I don't think there are any extends in the game. I've got to a million points which would be a good place for an extra life and gotten nothing, so I don't know yet. The game is tough to play as well, even when you know the score. I'm not quite sure what effect rank has on the game, but when you're doing well you can certainly expect a few extra bullet spewing enemies to spoil your day. The levels are all well designed and of course excellent looking. The fourth level is a real visual treat, and everything about the fifth level is stunning. The last boss is very cool as well, particularly since it has an unusual weakpoint! The suckback attack it blasts you with also very cool, if a little tricky!

This game gets my very highest recommendation to shmup fans, although I stand by my original point that it's probably not going to appeal to people who aren't fans of the genre. But it's not like you've got anything to lose from trying it out, better to do it now while you can still buy it than after it's sold out Border Down style...

[Willei]

I've spent a lot of time on this game over the weekend, and how's this for an impression:

I think this might be the best shooter I've ever played.

Everything in the game just works so brilliantly! The way the different types of option work encouraging you to change through the game, the way you get bonus points for smashing the bosses quickly rather than hanging around Border Down style, the way the angled shooting forces you to cover weakspots with your option, the way you've got to avoid being flanked at any cost just like Kyukyoku Tiger, being chased by the rockets on the 3rd boss. The graphics, the music, the level design. There's only one word for it, and that's "Brilliant".

Forget what I said about this game before, I think it's one of the most interesting shooters around and should really be checked out by everyone whether they're a fan of the genre or not, right next to Ikaruga in that respect. How's that for a quick turnaround!

Edit: Argh, forgot to mention the second loop! Upon completing the game (with as many continues as you like I think, I used two or three) you get to start on the second loop from the title screen. I'm not sure how you access it properly, if at all, but I imagine it's a single credit through the main game. Different texture sets are used in the second loop to give it a different feel - the first level is more of a jungle theme compared to the original marsh land, the second level is now cold with snow instead of sunny as it was before. The levels are also mirrored from left to right, quite confusing at first but it really helps change the feel of it. Naturally the difficulty is increased as well, some enemies shoot faster, guard towers on the first level now track you, some things drop suicide bullets and such. I know none of it sounds like much, but it's really nice that the effort has gone in there to change the feel when just about every other game just makes you do it again, but harder for the second loop.

[MDY]

Just got this today

Amazing looking game - shows there was a fair bit of untapped power in the DC yet - looks as good as any shooter about. Amazing explosion and smoke effects..

It's not as instantly accessible or fast moving as Zero Gunner 2 (despite the similar look in stills they're very different) - but once the pace builds - it's relentless and pretty tough going - still not got the hang of the hitbox yet - keep getting clipped.

Going back for more

[MDY]

OK - the more I play it the more impressed I am.

Finding myself agreeing with Willei - definately one of the best DC shooters and it's creeping up into my all time fave shooters top 10

[Qazimod]

My god this thing is pretty: some absolutely beautiful explosion and gunfire effects that piss on practically everything else I've seen (not counting certain abstract-looking shooters, which are a whole different kettle.) I too like the way the firing direction can be locked, and the "option gauge" is quite novel too (the little beep to tell me it's recharged is fast becoming my best friend)... although if I really wanted to gripe - and it's terribly nitpicky - I found it a bit tricky to work out which bits on the ground were desructible at first. It's a minor criticism though - this looks and plays better than loads of other "shmup" type games I've experienced in the past.