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1 minute ago, Jammy said:


And this is where I never understand the way some players think - if you want a move to a top team, don’t down tools

and play like you’r rather be anywhere else; play out of your skin and prove that you deserve to be somewhere better.

 

Yeah, the problem is, if things stay as they are, Kane is trying to tout himself to top teams as the (then) 29 year old main striker of a team that only Norwich have scored fewer than.

 

I'm sure that stat will change but it's not exactly the look that a Real Madrid is after.

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I didn't want Conte in the summer as he doesn't feel longterm. 

 

Now I feel differently. A potentially short term appointment of a proven manager, who can hopefully shake the team up and get something from this season seems the best fit now. We need to show ambition, and a project manager wouldn't show that - recruiting Conte does. It's also the best way to get Kane playing again. 

 

If it is Conte, we can only assume he's promised some big cash to spend. I still think Mourino was promised this, but Covid disrupted all these plans. 

 

This feels like Mourino v2, but what else can we do right now? 

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I'd take Conte if he's allowed to remove the players that don't cut it, that means you Dele, Dier, most of the defence, Winks, etc.  Levy needs to get real and realise that these players are not for Spurs and haven't been for ages now.

Conte isn't an up-and-coming manager trying to step up (like Pochettino, although that said he turned out to be great), he's a proven manager so give him the same support he obviously got when he actually won things with other teams and he'll win things here too, which is what should have happened with Mourinho.

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5 hours ago, Smoothy said:

Levy has been shit for a while.  Got rid of George Graham the night before a cup semi final.  Appointed Jacques Santini who left 6 weeks later (clearly he knew the setup was Mickey Mouse).  Got rid of Jol even though he repeatedly got the team 5th.  Got rid of Redknapp for daring to court the England job even though he repeatedly got Spurs 4th and into the Champions League.  Laughably appointed that kid Villas-Boas, how long did he last?  Appointed Pochettino and stiffed him by amazingly not buying any players in an 18-month period.  Did the same with clearly the best manager out there, Mourinho (I'm fucking embarrassed for him).  Where's the proper investment in the team?  Where's the long-term planning?  Why is it that in the same period a side like Liverpool (who had a joke of two comedy owners at one point, and hadn't won the league in so long Man Utd caught up, surpassed them which allowed their long-term manager to finally retire after "knocking Liverpool off their perch") can move up in a clear and defined manner while we can't?

 

Someone out there embarrassed for Mourinho? 'Clearly the best manager out there'? Clearly? Neville as well said Mourinho was the best when he arrived at Man United on Sky after the 5 nil Liverpool defeat, do people still think that after the Chelsea collapse? After not getting to a champions league final in a decade? (not one with Real Madrid or Chelsea who both won it multiple times after he left). I don't hold it against Guardiola about being the best coach in the world for not winning the Champions league in a decade, but he's far more proven over a league season, and this is not even about winning it, but getting to a final, which to be fair has taken Guardiola a decade to reach one again as well. But then he plays some of the best football out there, the failure for Mourinho is moreso given he presents himself as a winner at all costs, yet his methods led his teams to being knocked out of the champions league over and over again. Each time i'd be a bit shocked.

 

People can argue over who they'd prefer over Guardiola or Klopp, but i think nearly everyone would agree they're the top 2 at the moment, and have been for the last 5 years. Tuchel, Conte, Erik Ten Haag, Pochettino, Nagelsmann the next lot with probably 5-10 others, then Mourinho.

 

I think with the Spurs squad people are still absolute about everything, I'm sure Kane is moping but he also wants the Shearer goal record, he wants a move and isn't attracting anyone at the moment. If you're bottom of the league for nearly everything and aren't having shots on target at home in games then something is going extremely wrong, way beyond just 'the players aren't good enough for this cliub'. It's not like the players are getting battered by Bayern and you can say 'well, we're not at that level'. The players aren't good enough to not be bottom of the premier league in everything? Running, chances created, shots, etc, really?

 

Pochettino lifted the level of the team's expectations in Europe too, there was some very impressive performances against Juventus and Real Madrid. Games which anyone might say 'well, the players aren't up to it'. When you're merely struggling to create and combine against average premier league teams then it's not the players, unless they're a unique collection of the most passionless, uncommitted players, which isn't likely.

 

We've seen so many times a manager transform a group of players and raise their level instantly, Viera is doing it now at Palace. And that's just Viera, not actually one of the best coaches in the world. But Pochettino isn't getting anything out of Psg in ligue 1 and Conte might not be a good fit for Spurs (or Man United either), so it's not like there's absolutes with coaches either.

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Amazing you try to compare him to Pep, the one who is literally the definition of knocking himself and his team out of the Champions League again and again and again.  Only last year he was criticised as changing his tactics and playing himself out of a win.  At the end of the day though a win is a win and Mourinho's honours speak for themselves, especially compared to Pep.

 

At the end of the day, there's no way you can say that he isn't one of the greatest, he clearly is.  But all the managers you mention have all one thing in common - they have been backed by a chairman and/or board who have invested in the team and enabled them to win honours.  You can't say that about Mourinho at Spurs, he was stifled with a piss-poor team who had been stretched for years.

 

Pochettino may have lifted those players, but they still failed to perform in the final, and their league form was poor considering who they should have won against and the position they ended up in (4th).  That season it was plainly obvious the Champions League run was papering over the cracks, something that Levy, once again, should have seen coming but failed to do anything about it.

Nothing will convince me that Spurs embarrassed Mourinho.  Do you really think Pep, Klopp, Tuchel et al would do better with that awful squad at the same club instead of Mourinho?  Of course not, and the underlying issue is once again, Levy.  Watch and see if Conte comes in and is forced to keep the majority of the same players and see if we win anything with the likes of Dele, Dier and that awful defence.  Trust me, he won't.

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Best to describe Mourinho as ‘was’ successful. Which he clearly was, but he’s not progressed his methods with the changing times and has been left behind. Pep by contrast has changed and evolved his sides in the current world of high pressing and quick counter attacking teams. Mourinho hasn’t and his methods for building successful sides was dated by the time he took the Spurs job. He’s yesterday’s man, seeking that won’t bring any success. 

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I don't think anyone would dispute what he was at all but he's been absolute poison ever since he left Real. Around that point his toxicity overwhelmed his ability and that imbalance only seems to have worsened since, with his inevitable acrimonious departure cycle quickening with every appointment. He's already stormed out of a press conference at Roma...

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1 hour ago, Smoothy said:

Amazing you try to compare him to Pep, the one who is literally the definition of knocking himself and his team out of the Champions League again and again and again.  Only last year he was criticised as changing his tactics and playing himself out of a win.  At the end of the day though a win is a win and Mourinho's honours speak for themselves, especially compared to Pep.

 

Yeah but I acknowledged that Guardiola has underachieved in the Champions League, he has a poor away record and we all know he tinkers when he shouldn't. But winning at all costs isn't entirely how Pep is judged whereas Mourinho is. There was one game I think it was against Man City where Bayern were down to 10 men in 30 minutes and massively outplayed City as though they were the ones down a player, it was unbelievable. A missed penalty or wrong offside calls have been the difference for Pep other than the times he's just got it wrong.

 

I think counter attack usually favours Champions league teams which isn't Pep's style. Go through the hammering teams have got, the unexpected wins, it's on the counter those scorelines come from. 

 

Mourinho has not been the best manager in the world since his time at Inter Milan. Mourinho is one of the best managers ever, I know, but he's been at teams that after him they 

 

1 hour ago, Smoothy said:

At the end of the day, there's no way you can say that he isn't one of the greatest, he clearly is.  But all the managers you mention have all one thing in common - they have been backed by a chairman and/or board who have invested in the team and enabled them to win honours.  You can't say that about Mourinho at Spurs, he was stifled with a piss-poor team who had been stretched for years.

 

He is one of the greatest, but not 'clearly the best' manager in 2019. Or 2016. In 2004-2009, yeah. Once Guardiola did what he did with Barcelona and Klopp with the Dortmund double league win and with the kind of far more brilliant football Mourinho ever played, then he was no longer the best. 

 

Obviously you're coming from a place of thinking Mourinho could have worked at Spurs if he was backed whereas most people were just waiting for the fallout. A few Spurs fans replied to me on reddit a while ago saying Pochettino was to blame for some of the lack of signings, that he'd block loans because he didn't think the players would gel in terms of the unity of the group, I think it was Maddison and Tielemans, clearly good players. And Tielemans has qualities of Dembele so it surprises me. 

 

The Spurs squad hasn't been well built, I'm not going to say that, but Ndombélé, Bergwijn, Sessegnon, Lo Celco were new arrivals in the summer before he arrived and Höjbjerg, Reguilón and Bale in his first summer transfer window aren't nothing. 

 

1 hour ago, Smoothy said:

Pochettino may have lifted those players, but they still failed to perform in the final, and their league form was poor considering who they should have won against and the position they ended up in (4th).  That season it was plainly obvious the Champions League run was papering over the cracks, something that Levy, once again, should have seen coming but failed to do anything about it.

 

A few Spurs fans replied to me on reddit a while ago saying Pochettino was to blame for some of the lack of signings, that he'd block loans because he didn't think the players would gel in terms of the unity of the group, more obsessed with that than was reasonable, I think it was Maddison and Tielemans who he could have got, clearly good players. And Tielemans has qualities of Dembele so it surprises me. Is that about Pochettino common knowledge among Spurs fans? I have no reason to doubt the info from Spurs fans on reddit given how precise they were about it. 

 

1 hour ago, Smoothy said:

Nothing will convince me that Spurs embarrassed Mourinho.  Do you really think Pep, Klopp, Tuchel et al would do better with that awful squad at the same club instead of Mourinho? 

 

Well, everyone spent all season saying; why can't we see Bale, Son and Kane together? He wasted them I think. Bale just needed to get his fitness up, Spurs were top by like early November was it? However reliant on Son and Kane, it was working. Why couldn't he have sustained it? Rodgers at Liverpool in the nearly season had no bench. It was Suarez, Sturridge, Coutinho, the very young Sterling, an old Gerrard and that was it, mediocre everywhere else. And no January signings, relying on momentum to win games. Those Liverpool attackers were better perhaps than Spurs', but the rest of Spurs players are better. An actually okay keeper for one.

 

We forget now, many pundits in that covid season when Spurs were top were saying 'yeah, covid disruptions suit a manager like Mourinho'. Then it fell apart over Christmas, and January, everyone said Mourinho sat on slim leads and lost/drew games he shouldn't have. His decision. If you're top of the league after 10 games I think you can win the league yeah. People go on about squads more than I think is necessary, i think momentum is more important, as Rodgers' amazing Liverpool season showed. And Leicester's. 

 

I think all those managers would do better at this time than Mourinho at any club, yeah, because I think they're currently better. But we'll never know. 

 

1 hour ago, Smoothy said:

Of course not, and the underlying issue is once again, Levy.  Watch and see if Conte comes in and is forced to keep the majority of the same players and see if we win anything with the likes of Dele, Dier and that awful defence.  Trust me, he won't.

 

I just think it's a bit of everything, Levy not investing in the squad, a lot of the players not being outstanding anyway. 

 

But absolutely if Conte comes in you will not be bottom of the league in terms of every statistic, you'll see shots on target, things most teams expect, absolutely. If Leicester can stay 4th for most of the last 2 seasons and win a cup I don't see why Spurs can't.

 

I really don't know if Conte is a good fit for Spurs or Man United. People have said he's not wedded to 343, he's written articles on 433, I don’t know how Spurs' squad suits 343. I think 4th is still possible though, it's early enough, even if Man United should be getting it with the better squad. However Conte fits, he isn't in decline after just winning the title in a league dominated by another club, that's the difference with Mourinho however comparable they are otherwise. Maybe in 5 years Conte's methods will be old. Maybe we've seen his best and that Inter win was it, who knows.

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5 hours ago, Loik V credern said:

 

I really don't know if Conte is a good fit for Spurs or Man United. People have said he's not wedded to 343, he's written articles on 433, I don’t know how Spurs' squad suits 343.


I think 343 is actually the way to go with the Spurs squad as it is.

 

A starting XI of Lloris, Sanchez, Romero, Rodon, Royal, Reguilon, Hojbjerg, Ndombele, Son, Moura and Kane (if he can be arsed) properly drilled in that system looks pretty handy, with Dier, Davies (as part of the back 3), Sessegnon, Doherty, Skipp, LoCelso, Bergwijn and Alli being capable backups in that formation.

 

If he gets the backing for the right areas, and also assuming that Sarr from Metz is the player they’re hoping he is when he arrives in the summer, things - on paper at least - look quite promising.

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20 hours ago, Smoothy said:

At the end of the day though a win is a win and Mourinho's honours speak for themselves, especially compared to Pep.

 

Don't follow that. Both have won the CL twice, Pep has won 31 trophies to Mourinho's 25. In their head to head Pep has won 12, drawn 6, lost 7. 

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Look, I did say:

  

21 hours ago, Smoothy said:

At the end of the day, there's no way you can say that he isn't one of the greatest, he clearly is. 


And I wasn't talking about "in the last 3 years" or whatever filter is needed to have him drop down the "rankings", we can debate all we like over whether Pep is better or Klopp has a better win/loss ratio, fact is he's one of the best, obviously.  Spurs simply didn't back him as such, and if you don't back even the best the best will struggle.

 

I remember when Terry Venables was manager of Leeds and Leeds were dropping like a stone.  My dad said he wasn't a good manager.  I argued that he clearly was, but obviously when you come in having being reassured that your best players won't be sold from under you only to have a pile of them sold from under you without being replaced it doesn't matter how good you are you'll struggle.  This was when Ridsdale's Leeds was hemorrhaging money.

 

Anyway, obviously you all know Conte's finally signed.  Not sure what has changed from 5 months ago but, there you go.
 

 

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Really wasn't sure Conte would take Spurs. Obviously great for spurs fans, but...sigh, in one 12 month period, from 1st November 2020 to 1st November 2021 three of the top managers were available. Continuing my disloyalty as Man United fan, I wouldn't mind if Spurs nab 4th and Man United hire Rodgers. That doesn't seem hugely unlikely to me.

 

Pochettino isn't doing well at Psg at all though so perhaps he'll want out, pundits saying there are wretched performances in the league, the egos really are difficult to contain, and the expectation of Messi, Mbappe and Neymar battering teams isn't happening. Cavani and Zlatan scored stupid amounts in their time there, I don't know if the league has become more competitive (likely?) or Psg have regressed. Stories about Nuno coming out: 

 

Quote

Nuno, who was sacked yesterday, was widely considered a decent man and was respected, if not well-liked, by staff, who recognised that he was forced to deal with a number of difficult situations which were not of his own making.

 

The squad, though, had serious reservations about Nuno’s qualities as manager and it was telling that not a single Spurs player has so far paid tribute to the Portuguese on social media.

 

Nuno has always preferred working with a small group and there was quickly a sense within the squad that you were either in or out under the 47-year-old.

 

This sense of favouritism and hierarchy was emphasised by one of Nuno’s biggest mistakes in the job, the decision to leave his entire first XI at home for Europa Conference League trip to Vitesse Arnhem, effectively creating a two-tiered squad. Many of the players were unimpressed, with those in the de facto “second XI” particularly angry and demoralised.

 

Few at Tottenham are mourning the departure of Nuno Espirito Santo, but there was little rejoicing at the news, either.

Nuno, who was sacked yesterday, was widely considered a decent man and was respected, if not well-liked, by staff, who recognised that he was forced to deal with a number of difficult situations which were not of his own making.

 

The squad, though, had serious reservations about Nuno’s qualities as manager and it was telling that not a single Spurs player has so far paid tribute to the Portuguese on social media.

 

Nuno has always preferred working with a small group and there was quickly a sense within the squad that you were either in or out under the 47-year-old.

 

This sense of favouritism and hierarchy was emphasised by one of Nuno’s biggest mistakes in the job, the decision to leave his entire first XI at home for Europa Conference League trip to Vitesse Arnhem, effectively creating a two-tiered squad. Many of the players were unimpressed, with those in the de facto “second XI” particularly angry and demoralised.

 

An emotional Harry Winks expressed his frustration and the view of many of his teammates during an honest interview after the game, saying: “We’re meant to be a team. Everybody should be fighting for [a place in the] weekend games. Motivation should be everybody fighting for the same cause.”

 

Winks paid the price for speaking out and has not been named in a squad since.

Many of the players found Nuno cold, distant and uncommunicative, and even those in his “first XI” reported that they didn’t really know anything about their head coach.

 

He rarely held team meetings and never entertained players one-on-one in his office, as his predecessors Jose Mourinho and Mauricio Pochettino had done.

 

One established player was stunned when he discovered he had been dropped from the squad for an away game from a teammate rather than the manager, while there was a perception that Nuno was only really willing to speak to a handful of senior players.

His reluctance to communicate extended to the dressing room and he did not want to address the players immediately after matches, particularly defeats, believing emotions were still too raw. This often left the squad’s frustration to boil over in the stadium.

 

His coaching did not convince all the players either. One drill in which the players were told to play out of position, with the forwards in defence and vice-versa, left some players baffled and others amused.

 

Stuff came out after he left Wolves too.

 

Quote

Nuno was known here for not informing players when they were dropped, as well as some other questionable behaviours. These stories of course only slowly came out after he left.

Difference here was he could get away with it because he had built up that respect from the dressing room by bringing us up from the Championship into Europe. He didn't have that social capital to work with at Spurs.

 

A few quotes from the Athletic about Nuno at Wolves:

 

While Nuno has been incredibly popular with his playing staff, his departure won’t be a devastating blow to some at the club who have grown weary of his moody and occasionally terse demeanour. He could be snappy and abrupt. He’s very much been a head coach fully focused on the first-team but, other than getting involved in the final stage of transfers, hasn’t managed other aspects of the club. He didn’t attend a single under-23 match during his four-year tenure, for example.


A source close to the club says: “There has been a few problems there since October. Players were questioning things about Nuno’s approach. He didn’t lose the dressing room, but they were wondering whether he was as good of a manager as people were making out. 

 

At times he can be approachable…but in general the players tend to leave him alone for fear of not knowing what his reaction will be.

 

>If they’re let out the team, they don’t go knocking on his door asking why. That would just make things worse.

 

>“He doesn’t specifically explain to an individual player why he’s left them out,” an ex-Wolves player tells The Athletic.

 

>“The culture he’s come from at Valencia or Porto, they’ve got squads of 30 or 40 players, not being selected isn’t a major deal, rotation is common. In England it feels like the end of the world to players if they’re left out and there’s a culture of asking the manager why.

 

>“With Nuno, when he selects you it’s for a certain reason, he gives you specific tasks for that match, the team needs something from you.

 

>“No one goes into his office…if you did that you’d probably come out in a worse position than before you went in. A conflict or difference of opinion is only going to harm your chances.

 

Why don't managers talk to players? These kind of stories always come out and I'm always surprised. Same with Lampard, just not talking to certain players for like half a year. Players hate not understanding, not knowing how they can improve. Why never go to u23 games? Why do so many top managers seem so bad with being personable? I mean I'd struggle with it, but if I was being paid millions a year and in a position few sit in at a historic club I'd probably try keeping players onside given you're relying on them trusting your tactics and playing for you. 

 

Conte isn't personable either but he must talk to all his players to get so many playing. 

 

One spurs fan on reddit thinks this will be the lineup

 

Lloris

Sanchez Dier Romero

Hojbjerg

Royal Lo Celso Ndombele Reguilon

Son Kane

 

I'm actually kind of gutted. I was so curious what Conte would do with this United.

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What a weird comparison to make, what's Italy got to do with it? Conte wasn't in the lookout for another job there I don't think (and nobody was offering him one either) so it's irrelevant.

 

Compare that starting eleven to the place that's actually relevant and it doesn't look all that special at all. 

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9 hours ago, Yobo Ahoy said:

Dier just always seems like the weak link to me. He's just not a CB.


He’s actually been quite good with Romero next to him, but he just seems like a bad luck sponge, whether it’s a comedy own goal, a very dubious penalty, or something else. He’s the human example of Sods Law.

 

As I said above, I’d prefer Rodon or Davies on the left of a back three, and let Dier and Sanchez (and Tanganga) fight it out for the RB slot.

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12 hours ago, Gabe said:

What a weird comparison to make, what's Italy got to do with it? Conte wasn't in the lookout for another job there I don't think (and nobody was offering him one either) so it's irrelevant.

 

Compare that starting eleven to the place that's actually relevant and it doesn't look all that special at all. 

 

Oh i know, I don't know why he's comparing with Italy, it's just another line up to look at for Spurs fans. 

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15 hours ago, Loik V credern said:

Possible lineups 

 

Lo Celso & Ndombele would both need to improve a lot for those to work, I expect it to remain either/or with those two with Ndombele being first pick. The midfield does need to be more creative but I think that will come from tactical improvement rather than a change in personnel. 

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They're only highlights, but after watching videos i was quite excited by Ndombele's arrival to the premier league. I know he's picked out for his often poor work rate but just on the ball the strength with the ball retention skills to manouevre out of any situation...that's like my favourite thing in football...his highest level is higher than most. Apparently with Nuno being an introvert other introverts responded more to him, and Ndombele liked him more than most of the squad.

 

Espn think more than money it was Conte backing himself with agreeing to Spurs on an 18 month deal. Conte has said he doesn't like taking jobs mid way through seasons, and he must have thought the United job would become available especially with him sat there. Psg were quick to sack Tuchel because Pochettino was available, Chelsea were quick to sack Lampard because Tuchel was available, and now Spurs were quick to sack Nuno because Conte was available. All the while...Man United aren't quick to get any of the top managers when they could have. Espn think The Italy squad Conte left Juventus for was the worst in 50 years. Beaten by Germany on penalties in the quarter finals.

 

I mean i hate Mourinho more than most, but..succeeding where he failed...when you've won everywhere and with nothing to prove...Managers aren't driven by their own ego are they, they want money because they're ultra competitive perfectionists who want to strive to win, and Conte is more of a football is everything workaholic than most. No manager would look at Spurs and think winning a few cups or even the league is desirable based on how unexpected that would be, would they? To be a legend of a club, players say it but it's hard to believe them. Bielsa doesn't care that Leeds fans adore him, he values the connection they have with their club but he's not interested in them adoring him i don't think. They know how difficult the job is and are just people looking for work like anyone else.

 

(Obviously) I'm really interested in what he gets out of the players going forward and how he does, more than Xavi at Barcelona even.

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