Sport The Formula 1 Thread

[Nick_L]

The Aguri's might improve a lot when the get their new car, you never know. Ide does seem to be well off the pace, and giving Davidson a race seat there could be a wise move. He'll be better then Ide (and probably Sato) and will get some more race experience, possibly leading to a full Honda drive next year ?

The problem with Button is that hes British. Were so desperate for a successful sportman it seems, that anyone who has just the slightest chance of any success, gets hyped to a level that they can probably never live up to

I like the Nurburgring circuit, and it usually throws up an interesting race with a few incidents. It'll be better than Imola for sure!

[mexos]

davison will crush sato.

& probably get rubens seat next year off the back of it.

[Burai]

I rate Ide quite highly, but they've brought him in far too early. He did no testing over the winter and I don't believe he's done any since the season started. He's literally learning the ropes at the circuit and that's not fair on either him or the other drivers. Let's not forget that if you include testing roles, this is Sato's fifth year in an F1 car.

Ide will never get better if he has to continue as he is now. He needs time in the car, away from the race weekends.

[choddo]

The Aguri's might improve a lot when the get their new car, you never know. Ide does seem to be well off the pace, and giving Davidson a race seat there could be a wise move. He'll be better then Ide (and probably Sato) and will get some more race experience, possibly leading to a full Honda drive next year ?

The problem with Button is that hes British. Were so desperate for a successful sportman it seems, that anyone who has just the slightest chance of any success, gets hyped to a level that they can probably never live up to

He handles it pretty well and let's face it, noone's going to blame him for that titting poleman's antics. I fully expect he'll be looking for a new job this week

[mexos]

He handles it pretty well and let's face it, noone's going to blame him for that titting poleman's antics. I fully expect he'll be looking for a new job this week

maybe he would be if he hadnt (stupidly) commited to honda on a long term contract. like duur.

i recon he'd have had a shot at a mclaren drive next year (since raik is certainly gone & monty's almost certain to 'do a ralf' for his beloved 'stability' & never win another grand prix again. like ralf)

but then he would have been handed his ass every weekend by you know who, so its probably worked out for the best

[marsh]

Was quite looking forward to the highlights last night, appreciate how a second counts for everything in racing (having spent the weekend racing myself) but fuck me that was mindbendingly dull.

I think I may well walk away from F1 and never return. I wonder if it's a participation thing that's finally ramming the nails in the coffin of it for me??

[choddo]

maybe he would be if he hadnt (stupidly) commited to honda on a long term contract. like duur.

I meant the pole man

[mexos]

I meant the pole man

ah! like duur!

DUUR! (slaps forehead)

ill get me coat

[dam_aks]

I think I may well walk away from F1 and never return. I wonder if it's a participation thing that's finally ramming the nails in the coffin of it for me??

By the time the next race is on I have forgotten how angry I was for bothering to watch the last one.

So no, I think it is down to F1 being a snorefest!

MotoGp is where it's at if racing is what you want. F1 is just about tech these days, and even then they get messed around with girly V8's.

[choddo]

Yeah but 20K RPM V8s, so it's fun

and I'm off to Silverstone for an F1 practice day tomorrow, should be fun. Bit of corporate suite action and get to walk round the pits over the lunch hour, I shall of course be posting pix.

I think the confirmed team list is Ferrari, McLaren, Williams, Honda, Jordski, Red Bull. But no idea who's going to be driving them. Button had better show up for the wife to ogle.

[Paradigm]

F1 isn't just about tech. The F1 cars in the early '90s were more advanced than the ones now. The unremitting dull nature of the race has very little to do with the cars.

[mexos]

Yeah but 20K RPM V8s, so it's fun

and I'm off to Silverstone for an F1 practice day tomorrow, should be fun. Bit of corporate suite action and get to walk round the pits over the lunch hour, I shall of course be posting pix.

I think the confirmed team list is Ferrari, McLaren, Williams, Honda, Jordski, Red Bull. But no idea who's going to be driving them. Button had better show up for the wife to ogle.

ah, the wonder of silverstone testing. i used to get to go loads when we worked for jaguar racing. i have a pic of me doing the schuey leap on top of the podium on a very wet & miserable pre season test. you a corporate guest of one of the teams? if you know someone in the know try & blag a white photographers tabbard from the press office (you'd need to ring in advance) & then you have FULL pit access for the test - thats SUPER fun.

goddam ford. if only you hadnt sold up! *sigh*

[choddo]

No, I'm paying my own way mate. And I think the wife & son might be a bit vexed if I effed off into the pits for the afternoon

[mexos]

you'll have a cracking time. make sure you wander down to magotts & beckets. its not far, a 10 min walk from the end of the pit lane.

if you stand as high as you can you can see the cars come through copse & round the beckets complex. it will blow your mind the speed they do. its an amazing demonstation of an f1 car at the limit. you can only see this full section on a test day, as at any other time at a race weekend there are too many bods about.

most people hover arround the brooklands infield on a test day - dont do it! its sooooo boring & the cars are so slow through there.

[marsh]

Something I've ofeten wondered about since F1 became a bit of a chore, what exactly would an F1 car look like and go like without the shackles of rules, regulations, and restrictions?.

I can't really watch Moto GP either, though when I do catch a bit of it I'm slightly enthralled by the crazyness of it all. Still, I had top racing fun yesterday, even though I doubt very much that I scored any points.

[dam_aks]

F1 isn't just about tech. The F1 cars in the early '90s were more advanced than the ones now. The unremitting dull nature of the race has very little to do with the cars.

The cars are full of driver aides. They don't have slick tyres. They have stupid gear boxes. They aren't fast enough. There is far too much aero rubbish, mechanical is the only grip I care about.

The tracks are also freaking rubbish.

I think I might be at one of the Silverstone free practice thingys. Only down the road like.

[McFly]

Something that amazed me when i heard it was that David COulthard is 4th in the all time points scorer table!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Coulthard

[choddo]

How a man with a brick for a jaw has managed to do that in a sport so dominated by aerodynamics is a wonder of modern science.

[Burai]

Watching the GP2 with guys passing around the outside of the chicanes and even through Tamburello suggests that low downforce, no electronics and slicks are indeed the way to go with future F1.

Hopefully the 2008 regulations will give us something special.

[mexos]

Watching the GP2 with guys passing around the outside of the chicanes and even through Tamburello suggests that low downforce, no electronics and slicks are indeed the way to go with future F1.

Hopefully the 2008 regulations will give us something special.

we live in hope...

i say give them 1000BHP+ each (let them go mad on power), FIA ECU (no TC) massive rear slicks, smaller fronts. FIA configuration front & rear wings. FIA rear difuser, manual boxes (i know this wont happen but it should). aero confined to the skin of the car (no tacked on winglets), 1 control tyre, 2 compounds (hard & soft) per race. FIA supplied brakes - increase braking distances by 2x, maybe even 3x. i belive they still use steel brakes in CART, ban carbon brakes, specify steel & its job done.

more mechanical grip. 5, 10% of todays aero grip from wings/difuser. WAY, WAY, WAY more power than grip. throttle control becomes an art again, & we get to see this on a weekly basis:

the art of car control plays a bigger role in the performance mix. the cars are safe enough these days to do this, as long as all the drivers are skilled enough. sure the cars would be mighty powerful (more so than now) but whats the use in all that power if your driver cant use it. wankers like ide would simply never make it, while the more talented drivers would get the chance, because driver skill & racecraft becomes a much more critical factor. because of the lack of aero & the dependance on mechanical grip, cornering speeds can be kept in check.

the big teams will throw gazillions at it still. but so what. if all that £££ is restricted to investment in tiny, diminishing returns (because of aero restrictions & FIA parts) then a privateer with a customer engine & a more talented driver CAN make the difference.

remember when this happened?

pure exceptional driver talent & small team innovation made the difference. on that day the combination of alesi & tyrell made teams such as ferrari look like wankers. this sort of thing can happen again, but not if we just hope for it.

[Sidewaysbob]

Whilst i would sell my own wife to see that sort of Sideways Mr Bob racing. I think you'll be having a ....

They couldn't stop traction control back in the day, unpolicable really.

Manual gear boxes and steel disc i think should be introduced. I don't think you can have control wings, but i like the idea of having aero surfaces on the skin only.

[RFT]

Whilst i would sell my own wife to see that sort of Sideways Mr Bob racing. I think you'll be having a ....

They couldn't stop traction control back in the day, unpolicable really.

Manual gear boxes and steel disc i think should be introduced. I don't think you can have control wings, but i like the idea of having aero surfaces on the skin only.

Traction Control was, and is, unpolicable while the teams are allowed to make thier own electronics. a standard ECU (each assigned, randomly to a given car at random at the start of the race weekend from a pool in the same way CART do the turbo valves) would make it impossible. ot at least, a lot harder, as you'd have to reprogram the ECU and deprogram it before post-race scrutineering.

[dam_aks]

we live in hope...

i say give them 1000BHP+ each (let them go mad on power), FIA ECU (no TC) massive rear slicks, smaller fronts. FIA configuration front & rear wings. FIA rear difuser, manual boxes (i know this wont happen but it should). aero confined to the skin of the car (no tacked on winglets), 1 control tyre, 2 compounds (hard & soft) per race. FIA supplied brakes - increase braking distances by 2x, maybe even 3x. i belive they still use steel brakes in CART, ban carbon brakes, specify steel & its job done.

more mechanical grip. 5, 10% of todays aero grip from wings/difuser. WAY, WAY, WAY more power than grip. throttle control becomes an art again, & we get to see this on a weekly basis:

the art of car control plays a bigger role in the performance mix. the cars are safe enough these days to do this, as long as all the drivers are skilled enough. sure the cars would be mighty powerful (more so than now) but whats the use in all that power if your driver cant use it. wankers like ide would simply never make it, while the more talented drivers would get the chance, because driver skill & racecraft becomes a much more critical factor. because of the lack of aero & the dependance on mechanical grip, cornering speeds can be kept in check.

the big teams will throw gazillions at it still. but so what. if all that £££ is restricted to investment in tiny, diminishing returns (because of aero restrictions & FIA parts) then a privateer with a customer engine & a more talented driver CAN make the difference.

remember when this happened?

pure exceptional driver talent & small team innovation made the difference. on that day the combination of alesi & tyrell made teams such as ferrari look like wankers. this sort of thing can happen again, but not if we just hope for it.

Nail, head etc.

So what is the deal with these silly rear wings they want introduced in 08? Will they make a difference?

[mexos]

Traction Control was, and is, unpolicable while the teams are allowed to make thier own electronics. a standard ECU (each assigned, randomly to a given car at random at the start of the race weekend from a pool in the same way CART do the turbo valves) would make it impossible. ot at least, a lot harder, as you'd have to reprogram the ECU and deprogram it before post-race scrutineering.

from 2008, the FIA almost certainly will enfoce a standard, sealed ECU. the days of TC are quite rightly numbered.

the centreline downwash generating (CDG) wing has had about 2% of the required research done on it. they need to build it & test it. AMD computer simulations alone are not enough. but at least they are looking at the problem constructivly - something that can be rarely said about one of max's initiatives

[Sidewaysbob]

The fact that Mclaren came to the tabel with a secondary "traction" brake pedal back in 2000 (i think). Would suggest to me that if the FIA ban something, the teams will come back with some in 6 months to do the same job.

Remember Benetton withtheir "hidden" traction controll start line system that was hidden better than most porn files on the home PC.

6 months after traction control is banned, it'll be back, as rev limiting in corners with a certain G loading, or activated after double break tapping perhaps. They always find a way.

Let the teams have what ever they want on the electronic side. Stick to restricting things like the break disc material, aero surfaces and the like.

Incidentaly, the grooved slicks were an attempt to reduce the cornering speeds and increase the slip angle, by reducing the contact patch. The problem was thet didn't police the aero changes in conjunction. So Mech grip dropped but aero grip increased.

[RFT]

6 months after traction control is banned, it'll be back, as rev limiting in corners with a certain G loading, or activated after double break tapping perhaps. They always find a way.

To do any of that would require them to have some sort of ECU on the car that wasnt; the FIA-provided Black Box- which won't be allowed.

If there's one area that the teams shouldn;t be allowed free reign, it's the electronics- it wouldn;t be too long before we had Traction Control, ABS, Yaw control, radar cruise control (why drive?, just hit the radar and follow the guy ahead's speed)

I would say free up the under-car aero a lot- let them have decent diffusers back and the ugly winglets and flips on the upper skin would disappear, as they're so ineffecient.

[Paradigm]

Thing is though by derestricting ways of producing mechanical grip the cars can just go round like they're on rails. The current situation is a (arguably poor) compromise because of exponential advances in both mechanical and electronical ways of producing a better car, but it's not really worse than it's ever been. As I said early, the early '90s cars went round on rails and the old '94 Renault I think it was is universally hailed as being the most sophisticated car ever seen in an F1 race.

Teams dominated as much then as they do now, and this has always been the case, even stretching back to the 1930s when Auto Union etc. were absolutely thrashing the living shit out of the traditional Italian manufacturers who just could not keep up. The reason why it's less exciting now is, I think, the fact we have far less natural drivers. There's no Fangio or Clark or Senna or even Mansell. Instead we've had the most dispassionate man alive (Coulthard) representing Britain for years until Button came along but even he's pretty boring. Damon Hill was never a natural racing driver by his own admission, he just worked really hard. Schumacher is absolutely amazing but he makes loads of mistakes and is perhaps the most hard-working man on the planet. Money is maybe one of the biggest factors in deciding who drives, and people can get there if they practice enough and have the backing. The reason F1 isn't fun is because of social and cultural reasons, not technology.

[Burai]

Remember Benetton withtheir "hidden" traction controll start line system that was hidden better than most porn files on the home PC.

The irony is that it wasn't hidden at all. It was there for everyone to see. But when questioned in scrutineering why on earth they still had traction control software hidden in the car, they said that they hadn't had enough time to remove it from the engine management software over the winter and it stayed there disabled. However, the drivers would literally push the correct button sequence before the race to switch it on and then again at the end to switch it off before scrutineering. They were punished indirectly though via Schumacher's black flag and two race ban (plus 1 race disqualification) - punishments which didn't fit his crimes, but certainly fit Benetton's.

They really were cunts that year though. From traction control, to illegally modified fuel fillers. The worst one was filling Michael Schumacher's stomach with water before the start so the car passed the pre-race weight check. He'd then urinate in his race suit on the warm-up lap to run the car underweight. A final pit-stop with more than enough fuel to get to the end and to pass the final weight check would see them home and dry. Apart from Schumi's underpants that is.

[marsh]

The irony is that it wasn't hidden at all. It was there for everyone to see. But when questioned in scrutineering why on earth they still had traction control software hidden in the car, they said that they hadn't had enough time to remove it from the engine management software over the winter and it stayed there disabled. However, the drivers would literally push the correct button sequence before the race to switch it on and then again at the end to switch it off before scrutineering. They were punished indirectly though via Schumacher's black flag and two race ban (plus 1 race disqualification) - punishments which didn't fit his crimes, but certainly fit Benetton's.

They really were cunts that year though. From traction control, to illegally modified fuel fillers. The worst one was filling Michael Schumacher's stomach with water before the start so the car passed the pre-race weight check. He'd then urinate in his race suit on the warm-up lap to run the car underweight. A final pit-stop with more than enough fuel to get to the end and to pass the final weight check would see them home and dry. Apart from Schumi's underpants that is.

Stuff like that still goes on today. Not on nearly the same scale, but a lad at the weekend had to consume 4 litres of water vefore jumping on the scales at the start of a race because he would have been underweight. Which means he would have moved into a different class, and lost all the points accumalted in the class he's in.

I can't recall the last time we observed a privateer beating a works team in F1? surely 1991 wasn't the last memorable time it happened?

[Burai]

A couple of years ago actually.

Giancarlo Fisichella won the 2003 Brazilian Grand Prix in a Jordan with a customer Cosworth (as much as Eddie tried to pretend it was a works deal). Not a convincing display though. 2003 really was the begining of the end for Jordan and they were hopelessly slow all year.

For the last time a privateer genuinely led and beat a manufacturer team, you'd have to look back to 1999 when Heinz Harald Frentzen was performing miracles in his Jordan Mugen and won two races.