Super Mario Galaxy on the way for Wii

[Eats hoops and leaves]

Lives don't add challenge, other than the challenge of collecting them. Losing all of your lives just adds frustration and annoyance.

They do if you're stuck at a continue point.

If you had 99 lives then you'd stop trying close to losing 27 of them.

It saves your lives in New Super Mario Bros, and in the GBA version of Super Mario World. It doesn't really make them any easier

If you know the silver coin trick in SMW then you could constantly max out your lives counter, making the continue points pretty much worthless. That'd make the game easier for sure.

I've not played NSMB, but it makes me sad that they've allowed you to save lives.

[SomeNaiveChump]

Yeah, there is no reason for there to be a lives counter at all.

Collecting 25 lives and then coming across the first tough level and discovering you've only got 5 tries at doing it is like going to Tescos on Saturday then coming down for brekkie on Sunday and finding out a midget has eaten all your Shreddies.

[Eats hoops and leaves]

Yeah, there is no reason for there to be a lives counter at all.

Collecting 25 lives and then coming across the first tough level and discovering you've only got 5 tries at doing it is like going to Tescos on Saturday then coming down for brekkie on Sunday and finding out a midget has eaten all your Shreddies.

Am I in bizarro universe where nobody has played a Mario game before, or something? I don't know any of you anymore!

[Daley]

Am I in bizarro universe where nobody has played a Mario game before, or something? I don't know any of you anymore!

Lives had their place. But now they are a useless relic from the past.

[Eats hoops and leaves]

The system could use an overhaul, but I wouldn't like to play a version of Mario where you can keep re-doing the same section over and over again with no risk.

[SomeNaiveChump]

Yeah I've played through all previous Mario games.

It was obvious that lives were a useless relic even when playing through SMW back in '92.

It's stultifying that such a completely useless feature is still in this game (especially as it doesn't save them, meaning their only possible purpose is frustration).

There's already no risk by the way, since you lose all your lives when you reset anyway. They already don't matter save for having to restart the game.

[Daley]

The system could use an overhaul, but I wouldn't like to play a version of Mario where you can keep re-doing the same section over and over again with no risk.

Not completing it is enough risk. Failing is enough. And completing it is enough reward. Lives have got no point. Accept it man. You're living in the past!

[Eats hoops and leaves]

Yeah I've played through all previous Mario games.

It was obvious that lives were a useless relic even when playing through SMW back in '92.

It's stultifying that such a completely useless feature is still in this game (especially as it doesn't save them, meaning their only possible purpose is frustration).

There's already no risk by the way, since you lose all your lives when you reset anyway. They already don't matter save for having to restart the game.

I typed out a massive reply, but I think I'll accept that I live in the past instead

[barkbat]

Extra lives encourage exploration and allow the designers to attract the player to tricky parts of a level that might otherwise get overlooked.

They also give weaker players a security blanket to encourage risk taking.

So what if you have too many and when you reset you don't. They don't harm the experience for anyone.

[Massive Invisible Dog]

Extra lives encourage exploration and allow the designers to attract the player to tricky parts of a level that might otherwise get overlooked.

And the only way they could encourage that is with 1ups?

So what if you have too many and when you reset you don't. They don't harm the experience for anyone.

They harmed my experience when I went into Luigi's Purple Coins with a few lives, lost them all then had to trek all the way back to that star, only to die another four or five times then have to do it again.

[Stroker Ace]

And the only way they could encourage that is with 1ups?

Some titties might work, too.

[The Great Khali]

This is the best game ever.

That is all.

[Comrade]

And the only way they could encourage that is with 1ups?

Yes. I'm pretty sure that that is the only real reason lives are still in the game.

3D platformers have a problem, and that is that they require the game to be littered with collectible objects. They need this in order to encourage exploration and experimentation, but more importantly as a reward. Without pickups, what would the point of a secret room be? There would be no actual benefit to the player for finding them.

However, the pitfall of the system is what Rare fell into. When you make these pickups actually effect progress in the game, you subject the player to feel obligated to pick up every single one of them, turning what should be a fun game into a chore, and for transparently arbitrary reasons. The challenge EAD obviously faced in SMG was to make a game with pickups where, other than the stars (which are barely even pickups at all, they are in fact just symbols of progress through the game) all pickups are actually beneficial to the player and totally optional.

Traditionally the basic pickups for Mario games have been coins, but as Mario 64 had elevated their value by making them the main source of health, their numbers clearly had to be lowered in the game. Health is something that should need to be sought out, not readily available everywhere. So for the "ubiquitous" pickup the star bits were created. But then the question becomes "what's the point of collecting all these things?". So, they were given a limited gameplay use (the shooting - this incidentally is why there are now shooting puzzles or anything in the game, the collection of star bits had to stay optional. They were pickups first, projectiles second), and made the means through which some new (and totally optional) galaxies were unlocked. But even this wasn't enough, so they made them give you lives for every 50 to really make you want to accumulate them.

But this brings us to 1ups. 1ups exist because the game needs a mid-level reward for a nice bit of fancy platforming, and working out a clever secret. A star is way too much reward, but a coin or star bit isn't worth the trouble (they occasionally do actually reward you with a huge amount of coins or star bits, but the problem here with 3D platformers is precisely where all these pickups are going to be. In a separate room? Are you going to model a whole new room every time? etc.). The mid-level pickup needs to be useful to gameplay, but more useful than mere health (just making health the mid-level pickup would make the game too hard). More importantly it needs to be totally optional, not a requirement of progress in the game at all (otherwise the game becomes a collectathon). You decide whether or not to pick up a 1up entirely on whether you actually want to do it at the time, the game places no obligation on you to do so (other than the general threat of running out of lives, which is rare in SMG anyway).

1ups are the only pickup that can fulfill all these purposes, so they must be in the game, and therefore a lives system must be in the game. 1ups don't exist because a lives system has to be there, it is the other way around.

[Yix]

That's it, I give up, I've played this for nearly six hours (a considerable amount for me as I think of Mario games as "quick fix"), I've thirty-odd stars, I even suffered the damn manta ray surfing mini-game, I really have tried but this simply is just a Good game. Not an exceptional one, not a brilliant one, just Good. Other expletives to consider can include Nice and Alright. Aside from the mild gravity warping (which comes at the price of mild camera issues), the bright graphics and the sheer polish which comes as standard with most first-party IPs, I cannot celebrate this. In fact, I'd go so far as to say I regret buying the Wii. Here's hoping Metroid Prime'll address the issues I'm suffering.

I have tried. There just isn't enough meat on the bones, which are the only tasty morsels to be found. It's just another Mario game (not to suggest that yet another Mario game is bad. It's not. That's why I'm saying it's Good). From the occasional irritating inconsistency at the game's refusal to obey its own rules to the forced positioning of Alter Marios which merely suggest them to be part of the level design than a power-up, this game just has too many little flaws next to the incredible polish for me to look away from.

Oh, I'll keep playing, it's the only game I have for the Wii and I'll keep playing even when I have a few more games. But I suspect that might have more to do with the Wii's limited selection of titles than anything. You win again, Mario.

[CS2x]

That's it, I give up, I've played this for nearly six hours (a considerable amount for me as I think of Mario games as "quick fix"), I've thirty-odd stars, I even suffered the damn manta ray surfing mini-game, I really have tried but this simply is just a Good game. Not an exceptional one, not a brilliant one, just Good. Other expletives to consider can include Nice and Alright. Aside from the mild gravity warping (which comes at the price of mild camera issues), the bright graphics and the sheer polish which comes as standard with most first-party IPs, I cannot celebrate this. In fact, I'd go so far as to say I regret buying the Wii. Here's hoping Metroid Prime'll address the issues I'm suffering.

I have tried. There just isn't enough meat on the bones, which are the only tasty morsels to be found. It's just another Mario game (not to suggest that yet another Mario game is bad. It's not. That's why I'm saying it's Good). From the occasional irritating inconsistency at the game's refusal to obey its own rules to the forced positioning of Alter Marios which merely suggest them to be part of the level design than a power-up, this game just has too many little flaws next to the incredible polish for me to look away from.

Oh, I'll keep playing, it's the only game I have for the Wii and I'll keep playing even when I have a few more games. But I suspect that might have more to do with the Wii's limited selection of titles than anything. You win again, Mario.

You're not alone, although I think it's very good.

I did think it was amazing for the first 15-20 stars, and some of the last few levels were amazing too, but the rest is just pretty enjoyable, apart from the swimming levels, which are bearable.

I was probably hoping for some longer levels with more layers of gravity twisting. A couple of extra long Void-like levels would have made it for me...

Still a wonderful game overall, of course.

[barkbat]

And the only way they could encourage that is with 1ups?

Think of something else worth going after that fits the mario blue print.

Maybe the shield mushroom? Should you really reward expert play by giving the player something more useful to an amateur. Probably not. Coins and star bits are too little.

The one thing that could work would be the red coins from Mario 64, where seven get you a star. But then that becomes a required chore, not a fun extra for a bit of fancy footwork. Face it, 1ups are there for a reason and there to stay.

I like the way they look. I like the way they move. I love the sound when I eat one. I'm a 1up-holic.

They harmed my experience when I went into Luigi's Purple Coins with a few lives, lost them all then had to trek all the way back to that star, only to die another four or five times then have to do it again.

You poor thing. Write to your local MP.

[Massive Invisible Dog]

Think of something else worth going after that fits the mario blue print.

Dragon coins.

[Cheeko]

Yes. I'm pretty sure that that is the only real reason lives are still in the game.......

......1ups are the only pickup that can fulfill all these purposes, so they must be in the game, and therefore a lives system must be in the game. 1ups don't exist because a lives system has to be there, it is the other way around.

You forgot the biggest reason they're in there, Mario heritage, I only play Galaxy in short burts, rendering lives collecting pointless due to it resetting after the save. However, after so many years of the green mushroom being a vital pickup I just can't go past one without grabbing it.

I bet pretty much everyone else in this thread does the same thing.

Resetting the lives after a save is the only way to stop skilled players from mounting up loads and keeping those 1ups desirable. On the other hand I know my girlfriend was gutted when she saw my NSMB save file and I had 50 or whatever lives as she's been struggling with levels past a checkpoint and then getting reset to the start cos she has no lives left, it's a bit harsh really, neither system works, they need to get rid of the lives altogether.

[Rebs]

You've never been able to save lives in Mario games. I actually had this argument/discussion with somebody over the weekend, who didn't believe me until I showed him.

There'd be no challenge at all if you could.

Same with the Zelda games. You go into the first fighting of a boss with 14 hearts or something, get killed and then continue with only 4.

(Unless you turn your machine off and on like moi)

It's Nintendoness.

[mackemansj1]

Just started this 11 stars in, wow its tossed alot at me already can it really go on tossing fantastic different levels at me or do you see some simliar levels from time to time.

[SPE]

Did you just call Mario a tosser?

[scottcr]

I'm 70 stars in and did a Dreadnought and Melty Molten star - they were amazing. The game keep chucking new things at you - even when you've completed it.

Shigsy should be crowned King of all the known Universe and beyond for this game.

[moosegrinder]

Just started this 11 stars in, wow its tossed alot at me already can it really go on tossing fantastic different levels at me or do you see some simliar levels from time to time.

The variety is amazing.

[DarhkFox]

i didnt know but gold leaf galaxy is a mirror of the bee galaxy?

[Majora]

How could you not have noticed?

[DarhkFox]

i thought it was simular in design, but i didnt twig it was a mirror.

[Darren]

i thought it was simular in design, but i didnt twig it was a mirror.

Yep, same here.

*orders DS Sight Training*

[SPE]

Yes! I've just done the Luigi Coin purple comet. I started it with 14 lives, and did it on my penultimate life. My ever diminishing stock of lives made it all the more stressful, yet utterly satisfying when I finally nabbed the star.

[Chooch]

i didnt know but gold leaf galaxy is a mirror of the bee galaxy?

Oh dear I never realised either

[Major Britten]

Yes! I've just done the Luigi Coin purple comet. I started it with 14 lives, and did it on my penultimate life. My ever diminishing stock of lives made it all the more stressful, yet utterly satisfying when I finally nabbed the star.

Yeah that one was the last star that I had to get to complete the game, a right bastard. Dread to think what its going to be like with

luigi