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20 person dungeons


Big Swifty
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Well I thought these were going to be the best thing to happen to WoW in ages but now I'm not so sure. On my server they only seem to be regularly and successfully run/zerged by raiding guilds or groups. Was this the 'intention' weren't they meant to be they next step up from UBRS raids?

After trying for a few months to get a group of nice people together to run them twice a week it seems almost impossible, on the one hand they only need 20 people and offer some pretty nice loot for pre MC (even on a par or greater in some cases) but on the other they require people to be able to follow orders and pay attention pretty much all the time, if you have a group non epic specced anyway. This and the lock ins pretty much mean pick up groups don't happen on ER.

So what happens is that we get people who join us for a while, then as soon as they get into an MC/BWL raid group they don't come back. It's just then easier to get loot zerging it with them. Either that or it's too much work to get any phat lewt from it and people get bored. It's not just my group either, another group recently set up just to do the 20 man stuff has the same problem with sign ups.

Maybe it's a case that they are designed above MC in complexity and don't have the easy class set drops at every boss that MC has. This sounds like it will be fixed to some extent in 1.11, but I wonder if it will be enough.

I'm almost thinking they should drop the lock ins and encourage pick up groups for it. It might actually work on ER, managed to get over 20 people for the battle of darrowshire the other day ;) there are enough bored people hanging about who can't face UBRS etc. again I reckon.

So what happens on your servers? I can see them working better on new servers where there aren't 100 raid groups to get epics from but they just seem wasted ER alliance side.

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We do Zul'Gurub about twice a week. Our guild started a collaboration work with the new and merged version of The Amazing Squad so we've got loads of old timers and new guys alike. ZG is a great place to raid on week nights as we do a couple of bosses each night. With the quest items dropping (Hakkiris, Coins and Bijouts) as well as the gained honor points it'll get you some pretty nifty loot in the end as well as it's a very good training grounds for tanks and healers and, heck, about everyone. MC will be a piece of cake for those doing ZG with us and has yet to do MC.

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I think they are great myself. The guild I'm in doesn't yet have enough level 60s to do MC etc, so we are concentrating on ZG and AQ20 at the moment. Ok so we have only done one of the bosses in AQ and all bar the spider boss and Hakkarr in ZG, but we have only been doing them a short while. They are a real step up from UBRS so it's quite usefull for getting people used to following strategies, everyone has to be on the ball so to speak. I can see the practice being very usefull for the other end game stuff.

Theres some nice drops too and quite a bit of thought does seem to have been put into the dungeons, I think they are good fun myself. I do sort of agree about the lock-ins though, I'm not sure how easily you could do them with pugs however, I think they would be a bit of a nightmare to be honest.

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I do sort of agree about the lock-ins though, I'm not sure how easily you could do them with pugs however, I think they would be a bit of a nightmare to be honest.

Yeah they would be a nightmare with completely raw people, but I wonder if that would get better if more people practiced it, heck the first time people went to 5 man scholomance it was probably a nightmare with no experienced people. But now 90% of the server know what to do in every room and boss.

Or maybe the difficulty level and organisation needed is just set too high for it to work...

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Yeah thats what I thought, the organisation required would be the downfall really. I must have been through UBRS a fair few times now doing various quests and with a group that knows the place it's easy, with a bad pug it can be less than fun. I can imagine a bad ZG pug being a nightmare. Still pug's do take on ZG and AQ20 for that matter, how well they do I have no idea.

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Some of our guild have helped other groups in ZG, explaining the tactics we use to help them through. Still, they're not so much pugs as other-guild-groups.

I think one of our warlocks attended a real ZG pug once, although from his comments it seemed to be rather disastrous. If it was a pug where most people did know what they were doing, though, I imagine it could work.

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I don't know about Alliance side, but a couple of pugs have managed to take down Hakkar (albeit, with 3 Ad Noctum mains and 7 Ad Noctum alts) on the Horde side. The alts and the rest of the group pretty much exclusively had blues, so it is possible to do it with worse geared people, they just need to know what they're doing.

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I don't know about Alliance side, but a couple of pugs have managed to take down Hakkar (albeit, with 3 Ad Noctum mains and 7 Ad Noctum alts) on the Horde side. The alts and the rest of the group pretty much exclusively had blues, so it is possible to do it with worse geared people, they just need to know what they're doing.

Problem is that why have to run through an instance where you know what you're doing when you can just tag along with a group and get better equipped in one run than it might take a month to get in another instance.

Would be better if it was all the other way round really. Having the hardest instances as being 40 man just encourages people to tag along for the ride while letting the others do the work. It would be nice if say at level 70 the 40 man runs were the easiest but had worse loot but there were some really hard 5-10 man runs that had multiple branches that you couldn't do in one run and locked you in for longer but had the best loot you could get.

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20 mans should be aces. I've taken my guild into ZG three times, with between 10-13 folk from there, and the rest pickups, all have done their five and ten man runs and got their kit, and so I figured I'd show them around heh (after yammering on about how my raids are going in /g). There's nothing I need in there particuarly as my raid group are half way through BWL, so I'm like their tour guide. We got the snake down a couple of times, nearly got the bat. It's a really good way of learning how to work in a bigger group, which has since scared off a few of the more casual ones heh. The problem with it is precisely how complex ZG is boss-wise, even on the "easy" snake there's a ton of caveats and extra bits you have to tell folk to be mindful of, unlike the less tactics heavy MC bosses. I guess MC's just showing its age heh. Thinking about it, Kurinax is probably not too hard on the tactics, apart from the tank transition...

We're now too having problems with people who've had fun being part of the PuG contingient to the raid joining our guild, then leaving, as no-one wants to organise raids with any regularity heh (as I can't, due to my outside raiding commitments), which in turn puts me off from having to take time out to tell another seven or eight new folks that when you see the bats emote, run away from them etc.

I think if you can get a good mix of old timers and new raiders it'd work lovely, everyone having an understudy heh.

Personally I still prefer 20s to 40s, where I'm just an anonymous hunter (the best sort really heh), I feel I'm making more of a difference in a 20, and I prefer the odder loot you tend to get in them (my current bow is the Bow of Taught Sinew from AQ20, love it, before that I had the Hoodoo Hunting Bow from ZG, easily my blingiest bit of kit). And yeah, I still prefer fives best of all with the group I've been questing with through various alts since week one *grins*. Hopefully UBRS on Thursday to get my 59 Druid to 60 and all BWL attuned mmmm. Korhills got the right idea, small hard 5 mans, that's the way forward. Dire Maul's Daddy sorta thing.

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I love ZG, I just go there for fun now - it's pretty and the fights are way better than in MC. The Ruins I'm less keen on, bugs make for dull enemies, Ossirian can be a fucker if you don't get a good spawn (though fixed tomorrow, fortunately) and it's been bugging (hoho) out on us a hell of a lot lately, the Ancient Door keeps refusing to budge so we end up having to wait 45 minutes for it to reset and the trash reappears and oh, sod off, etc.

Really, I'm just looking forward to Karazhan more than anything else. Fingers crossed, I'll be portalling people straight there too.

;)

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Don't get me wrong I love ZG and I'm looking forward to making progress in RAQ. My issue is that they haven't filled the gap they were supposed to. It's still raiding guilds that do the 40 mans (or at least a collection of members on off raid days), well at least on ER. But some of the above posts do fill sound like they are being used as a starting point for raiding on other servers, damn ER and it's success.... ;)

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Oh my runs are on ER still, bless its cantankerous hide. The next patch'll help ZG runs, with the double loot drops and no coins/bijous required.

One of the problems was lowering the 15 man limit from UBRS, it's removed a rung up to the higher number places. Back in October when my raid group was in its infancy we were running that for raid training / loot / set drops etc.

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Yeah, good luck on that! ;)

Hey, I can dream!

The difference between you and me? I'm an eternally hopeful and romantic optimist, while you're a dour, self-hating miserablist cynic. You'll be sitting on the smug Throne of Rightness a lot more than I will but I will always be far cheerier* while you'll be moping about totems and itemisation and God knows what.

Let a little love in your heart!

*Uber drama weeks not withstanding

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Hey, I can dream!

The difference between you and me? I'm an eternally hopeful and romantic optimist, while you're a dour, self-hating miserablist cynic. You'll be sitting on the smug Throne of Rightness a lot more than I will but I will always be far cheerier* while you'll be moping about totems and itemisation and God knows what.

Let a little love in your heart!

*Uber drama weeks not withstanding

Hey I'm just saying. 40 pieces to that staff. 40!!

And I've not quit yet have I, or said I was. I'd re-roll before I ever quit. I just hope they actually decide to do something with the Shaman class in 1.12. Its all fine in my opinion, except mana tide isnt worthy of being a 31 pt talent and totems should be better than they are. The talents (mostly) and gear etc are fine.

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Don't get me wrong I love ZG and I'm looking forward to making progress in RAQ. My issue is that they haven't filled the gap they were supposed to. It's still raiding guilds that do the 40 mans (or at least a collection of members on off raid days), well at least on ER. But some of the above posts do fill sound like they are being used as a starting point for raiding on other servers, damn ER and it's success.... :(

On TVC they're definitely used as a starting point for upcoming guilds/raid groups who're trying to get into raiding, but aren't big enough to start MC yet. The difference is probably that on TVC, the 20-mans (well ZG anyway) have always been there, so it's been a fairly natural progression for new raiders to do the smaller instances first.

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ZG is 10000x more fun than MC, regardless of gear.

And the imba rewards ARE there to be got too. Shoulder enchant at Exalted, 2 x class enchant, and my lovely lovely lovely Renataki's Charm Of Trickery- the best Rogue PvP trinket in the game, for a lot of situations.

Oh and I've never seen anyone else on my entire server with one <3 <3

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20 mans end up being a headache to organise because there's always 30 people turning up for them. If there's 40 turning up, great, dual raid. But always with 30, or 27 or something. It'll be easier when we use signup-threads.

Anyhoo - I prefer 20 man as a number of people. It's much easier to focus and see where you're doing well and where you're going wrong and making sure each person is doing what should be done. Managing groups is easier, it's just more relaxing and fun.

Though there's always something amazingly great about 40 people coming together and killing a boss for the first time, I find myself being much more raid-aware in 20 mans.

So i'd like more. 15 mans even. and 10 mans are good too.

Basickerly, raiding became more interesting than 5 mans for me because I like the idea of different groups doing different things in the same fight. That's why molten core gets boring - because at the end fo the day a lucifron fight is just like a Barov fight only with 35 more.

But a razorgore fight...

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Oh my runs are on ER still, bless its cantankerous hide. The next patch'll help ZG runs, with the double loot drops and no coins/bijous required.

Yup, im getting my 3rd ever epic as soon as the realms come back up :)

One of the problems was lowering the 15 man limit from UBRS, it's removed a rung up to the higher number places. Back in October when my raid group was in its infancy we were running that for raid training / loot / set drops etc.

I think the opposite tbh. Reducing it UBRS to 10 man has made it a better training ground. A group of people equipped in mainly blues/greens really have to work as a team to get to the end now. Whereas when it was 15 you could complete it with any old bunch of halfwits.

And yes please for more small stuff 15/10/5 that gives really great drops. I gave up on MC after a couple of runs, just found it really boring - so much standing around doing fuck all. So im all for smaller groups that take less time to get going. Loving ZG atm though, such a difference to MC.

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We have 20 mans running in the mornings from about 11 and have generally about maybe half guild and half pick-ups and seem to manage fine.

This of course led to a load of bitchy from people about how they couldn't make these early morning runs but it was countered with the arguement "Why don't you just organise one in the evening then?".

So they did. Now on Fridays.

The End.

(Can't stand ZG anymore. I'd like to go but after doing it so many times with my previous paladin, I can't be bothered to stay for 5 hours just for hakkar loot =/)

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