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The Dark Knight


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I agree with these comments about poor storytelling. The story itself is actually excellent, it's just that there is at least three hours of it. There is no room for the audience to breathe - very few quiet moments for people to absorb things. It doesn't really ebb and flow, it's just a series of quick-fire events and plot developments.

Can't wait for an extended edition on DVD, or even just some deleted scenes. I want to see:

One of the dirty cops being blackmailed - perhaps bring Ramirez' mother into it.

Rachel and Dent being abducted, or at least see Gordon being told that Dent never made it home.

The Joker ingeniously setting up some of his attacks. I do just about believe that he could have planned that stuff, but I want to see some of how he did it.

Maroni telling his people to co-operate with the Joker for the time being, and that they can get rid of him when his usefullness has expired

Gordon arriving at the boat where the pile of money and Lau have been burnt, and perhaps finding the Russian mob leader dead as well. This plot thread is just forgotten.

More Two Face - perhaps him escaping/being removed from the hospital, finding out who the moles are etc.

There's probably loads of other stuff too. Doesn't the TV anchor get kidnapped? That's mentioned briefly, once.

EDIT: and I'd like to see the Joker recuit some ex-Arkham inmate or something. He seems to have a following of crazies (the guy Dent kidnaps and the guy with the phone in his stomach), but they are just 'there'. We're told in dialogue that they are "the kind of people the Joker attracts", but hearing it second-hand isn't good enough.

Yeah I think there's some scope for an extended edition but probably not on the scale you're thinking. For starters, there's definitely no more 'TwoFace'. Too expensive. I don't think they'd ever show Rachael and Dent being abducted either because that then ruins the reveal that they never got home. Maybe more Gordon stuff but I doubt it.

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Yeah I think there's some scope for an extended edition but probably not on the scale you're thinking. For starters, there's definitely no more 'TwoFace'. Too expensive. I don't think they'd ever show Rachael and Dent being abducted either because that then ruins the reveal that they never got home. Maybe more Gordon stuff but I doubt it.

I don't think there's a 'reveal' that Dent never got home. Gordon just mentions it to the Joker. If it was supposed to be a reveal, it could have done a lot more dramatically than just being dropped into the conversation. It's a minor point, but indicative of how things are glossed over.

I guess you're right about Two Face. Even if the did film a bunch of extra scenes with him in, I doubt they would have done all the post-production work on his face.

The whole film does smack of having been trimmed within an inch of its life, though.

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Can't wait for an extended edition on DVD, or even just some deleted scenes. I want to see:

One of the dirty cops being blackmailed - perhaps bring Ramirez' mother into it.

Rachel and Dent being abducted, or at least see Gordon being told that Dent never made it home.

The Joker ingeniously setting up some of his attacks. I do just about believe that he could have planned that stuff, but I want to see some of how he did it.

Maroni telling his people to co-operate with the Joker for the time being, and that they can get rid of him when his usefullness has expired

Gordon arriving at the boat where the pile of money and Lau have been burnt, and perhaps finding the Russian mob leader dead as well. This plot thread is just forgotten.

More Two Face - perhaps him escaping/being removed from the hospital, finding out who the moles are etc.

There's probably loads of other stuff too. Doesn't the TV anchor get kidnapped? That's mentioned briefly, once.

Does this stuff really need to be in the film? It would just slow up the film unnecessarily. You don't need to see the cops being bought as you know it goes on and bringing Ramirez' mother would probably spoil a mini twist.

Seeing the kidnapping wouldn't bring anything exciting to film and would just blow the tension created. Likewise, showing The Joker set up some of his schemes would be like a magician revealing how he does his tricks.

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I don't think there's a 'reveal' that Dent never got home. Gordon just mentions it to the Joker. If it was supposed to be a reveal, it could have done a lot more dramatically than just being dropped into the conversation. It's a minor point, but indicative of how things are glossed over.

I guess you're right about Two Face. Even if the did film a bunch of extra scenes with him in, I doubt they would have done all the post-production work on his face.

The whole film does smack of having been trimmed within an inch of its life, though.

Yeah I would imagine Warners were concerned about the run time and anything they could trim, they did. I feel like that could be a reason why we don't see, for example, what the Joker does after Batman jumps out the window after Rachael.

That said, has Nolan ever done an extended edition of his films?

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Does this stuff really need to be in the film? It would just slow up the film unnecessarily. You don't need to see the cops being bought as you know it goes on and bringing Ramirez' mother would probably spoil a mini twist.

Seeing the kidnapping wouldn't bring anything exciting to film and would just blow the tension created. Likewise, showing The Joker set up some of his schemes would be like a magician revealing how he does his tricks.

But don't you feel that these things were cut from the script/final edit for running-time rather than dramatic purposes?

I think the film does need to be slowed up somewhat. Also, I hate magic :(. I want to see the clever ways in which the Joker tricks, coerces and frightens people in his bit to take over the city.

I definitely think there are some deleted scenes of Dent/Rachel getting grabbed. The way the audience finds out is when Gordon mumbles it to the Joker in the interrogation room.

And you have to admit that Maroni telling Gordon where the Joker will be at a certain time is never followed up on. Unless I missed a line of dialogue or something!

Oh, and another thing that is niggling me: when the Joker escapes his cell, he has a bunch of cops pointing guns at him and he's using a cop as a shield. He makes his phone call, and the bomb goes off. Cut back to the Joker, with glass shattering behind him. Everyone else has disappeared!

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Oh, and another thing that is niggling me: when the Joker escapes his cell, he has a bunch of cops pointing guns at him and he's using a cop as a shield. He makes his phone call, and the bomb goes off. Cut back to the Joker, with glass shattering behind him. Everyone else has disappeared!

He was the only one that knew what was coming. It's quite conceivable that the Joker ducks in to the cover provided by the waist height partition while everyone else gets taken out by blast and glass.

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I don't really know what to do with myself now. I don't want to sleep but I don't want to play games/listen to music. I just wanna sit and absorb the movie some more.

You were me on Saturday morning and I claim my £5.

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I've been reading various discussions on this on the likes of CHUD, SA et al and I'm just left feeling some people have the attention spans of goldfish and/or need to have their hand held for the entire film like divvies. I don't want or need a scene which shows Batman pick himself up off the car, race up to the penthouse accompanied by a bunch of cops to see the Joker's long gone (given he couldn't find Harvey and Batman's sudden appearance, wiping the floor with his goons and leaping out of a fucking building to save Rachel, it doesn't take the most vivid imagination in the world to think 'Oh, gee, he's going to get the fuck out of there asap') or a retarded 100 post debate on the frickin' schoolbuses or why weren't we told about the Batpod before or how Harvey is really alive in Arkham or how the Joker can be an agent of chaos when he plans stuff blah blah frickin' blah. Not to mention the morons talking about why the detonators should have blown up the other boat - NEWSFLASH - they may very well have but no one used them in the first place. You may as well complain about the sun not rising in the west this morning.

Bloody nerds always have to get sand in their vaginas about every sodding little detail that isn't spoon fed to them. Nitpicking, boring, cynical little pissant pedant nerds.

I'd much rather talk about the main question the film raises - does Gotham need Batman? Has he really improved things for the better, is the escalation too high a price to pay? For all the good he does stopping corruption and breaking up organised crime, if the price is attracting the attention of mass murdering psychopaths conducting demented 'social experiments', then yes, it is. Or to put it another way, you wouldn't want a Batman in your town if that's the kind of shit that happens as a result, would you?

I'm surprised to see a superhero film pose such questions, questions which can lead the viewer to the conclusion the entire genre hinges on a heavily flawed concept and that, by their very existance, superheros cause more problems than they solve. It's not the first story to have the idea of course but it's pretty much the first film I can think of to do so and rather funny given it's a $180m box office behemoth.

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I've been reading various discussions on this the likes of CHUD, SA et al and I'm just left feeling some people have the attention spans of goldfish and/or need to have their hand held for the entire film like divvies. I don't want or need a scene which shows Batman pick himself up off the car, race up to the penthouse accompanied by a bunch of cops to see the Joker's long gone (given he couldn't find Harvey and Batman's sudden appearance, wiping the floor with his goons and leaping out of a fucking building to save Rachel, it doesn't take the most vivid imagination in the world to think 'Oh, gee, he's going to get the fuck out of there asap') or a retarded 100 post debate on the frickin' schoolbuses or why weren't we told about the Batpod before or how Harvey is really alive in Arkham or how the Joker can be an agent of chaos when he plans stuff blah blah frickin' blah. Not to mention the morons talking about why the detonators should have blown up the other boat - NEWSFLASH - they may very well have but no one used them in the first place. You may as well complain about the sun not rising in the west this morning.

Bloody nerds always have to get sand in their vaginas about every sodding little detail that isn't spoon fed to them. Nitpicking, boring, cynical little pissant pedant nerds.

I'd much rather talk about the main question the film raises - does Gotham need Batman? Has he really improved things for the better, is the escalation too high a price to pay? For all the good he does stopping corruption and breaking up organised crime, if the price is attracting the attention of mass murdering psychopaths conducting demented 'social experiments', then yes, it is. Or to put it another way, you wouldn't want a Batman in your town if that's the kind of shit that happens as a result, would you?

I'm surprised to see a superhero film pose such questions, questions which can lead the viewer to the conclusion the entire genre hinges on a heavily flawed concept and that, by their very existance, superheros cause more problems than they solve. It's not the first story to have the idea of course but it's pretty much the first film I can think of to do so and rather funny given it's a $180m box office behemoth.

I think you raise an interesting point here: where do those school buses come from?

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I would have liked it to have been a bit longer, not to improve the storytelling per se but to give more time for us to enjoy Ledger's acting. Such as when he storms the socialites party, I would have loved to see him just interact with the high society for a bit longer, where he was just wandering about person to person, grabbing them and asking where Dent was.

And also to pad out two-face a bit. He is obviously essential to the plot and ideas of the movie, but the film does feel a bit crowded with two supervillians.

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But don't you feel that these things were cut from the script/final edit for running-time rather than dramatic purposes?

Nope.

It made perfect sense the way it was and the suggestions you make, in my opinion, would add nothing other than to pointlessly slow the pace down.

A lot of the film seems to be from Gordon's perspective so to show the kidnapping of Dent etc wouldn't make sense at all. It would blow an entertaining reveal considering we, and the police, think the Joker has been duped but they just played into his hands.

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The only real thing that stood out for me as outright bad was the bit where the Joker has Rachel and says "Little fight in ya - I like that" and Batman says "Then you're gonna love me" or whatever and smacks the Joker with apparently no-one in the room noticing or reacting to his entrance.

Stupid film logic.

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The only real thing that stood out for me as outright bad was the bit where the Joker has Rachel and says "Little fight in ya - I like that" and Batman says "Then you're gonna love me" or whatever and smacks the Joker with apparently no-one in the room noticing or reacting to his entrance.

Stupid film logic.

I'm sure someone's mentioned this before but he's the goddamn Batman!

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Nope.

It made perfect sense the way it was and the suggestions you make, in my opinion, would add nothing other than to pointlessly slow the pace down.

A lot of the film seems to be from Gordon's perspective so to show the kidnapping of Dent etc wouldn't make sense at all. It would blow an entertaining reveal considering we, and the police, think the Joker has been duped but they just played into his hands.

I would agree, but I don't think the film is mostly from Gordon's perspective. Running parellel to Dent's arc is the rise of the Joker. He's the most interesting character in the film, and we see plenty of police-free scenes with him in - the robbery, the pencil trick, burning the pile of money etc. Due to the need for a reduced running time, I think the audience misses out on seeing more of his rise to power. Even seeing the moment when Gordon realises he has been played would have been better than nothing.

It's like The Bourne Ultimatum last year - at one point he just 'appears' outside the office of the deputy head of the CIA. It's not like I don't believe Bourne could have got in, but I want to see how he got in goddammit! That's what I paid for!

Alternatively (and this is taking my point to an extreme, so I apologise in advance) - why do we need to see that whole sequence in Hong Kong? Can't we just cut from Gordon and Dent agreeing that Lau needs to be grabbed, to seeing him dumped outside the police precinct? Obviously we can easily infer that Batman got him, what else do we need to see? Except that, of course, watching how Batman kidnaps Lau is one of the best parts of the film

There's no solution, though, because three hours is too long for this sort of film.

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Nope.

It made perfect sense the way it was and the suggestions you make, in my opinion, would add nothing other than to pointlessly slow the pace down.

A lot of the film seems to be from Gordon's perspective so to show the kidnapping of Dent etc wouldn't make sense at all. It would blow an entertaining reveal considering we, and the police, think the Joker has been duped but they just played into his hands.

Exactly. Do you really want a ten minute scene with the Joker recruiting a guy and putting an explosive in him and then getting him arrested or shall we just assume that somehow this master criminal did it. I'll prefer the later. Dark Knight does ask that the viewer does take some leaps of logic but at an already long film I don't think there was the time to explain everything in minute detail and I would prefer the occasion leap of faith rather than having to water down the plot to make sure the audience are shown absolutely everything,

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Alternatively (and this is taking my point to an extreme, so I apologise in advance) - why do we need to see that whole sequence in Hong Kong? Can't we just cut from Gordon and Dent agreeing that Lau needs to be grabbed, to seeing him dumped outside the police precinct? Obviously we can easily infer that Batman got him, what else do we need to see? Except that, of course, watching how Batman kidnaps Lau is one of the best parts of the film

There's no solution, though, because three hours is too long for this sort of film.

Except nearly everything some people are asking for would not have shown anything worth seeing as it'd just be goons carrying out orders. Unlike your Batman example there that did a number of excellent things for the film such as;

Showing Batman's physical proficiency in regards to him dropping and gliding like something out of Knightsend.

Confirming that Batman will indeed throw his Batnet as far as Hong Kong to get the job done.

and give us the AWESOME of "Oh no, you have me surrounded!...actually you have fuck all. I'll be off now, in to the sky like a demon from hell and I'll be taking this sniveling piece of crap with me."

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Exactly. Do you really want a ten minute scene with the Joker recruiting a guy and putting an explosive in him and then getting him arrested or shall we just assume that somehow this master criminal did it. I'll prefer the later. Dark Knight does ask that the viewer does take some leaps of logic but at an already long film I don't think there was the time to explain everything in minute detail and I would prefer the occasion leap of faith rather than having to water down the plot to make sure the audience are shown absolutely everything,

Yep yep. It also kind of let's us watch a different film the next time around where we can apply new context to little gestures etc. The Joker's reaction to fatphonebombguy getting tossed in the cell is great when you know what's coming.

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Exactly. Do you really want a ten minute scene with the Joker recruiting a guy and putting an explosive in him and then getting him arrested or shall we just assume that somehow this master criminal did it. I'll prefer the later. Dark Knight does ask that the viewer does take some leaps of logic but at an already long film I don't think there was the time to explain everything in minute detail and I would prefer the occasion leap of faith rather than having to water down the plot to make sure the audience are shown absolutely everything,

I don't want a tedious ten-minute scene, but I would like to see more of this master criminal at work.

You're right though - the way it's presented, in a more concise form, is wise. But I think it's the lesser of two evils. Basically there is too much plot and too many interesting characters to adequately explore. It does make the film very rewatchable as a happy side-effect.

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I'm sure someone's mentioned this before but he's the goddamn Batman!

All the more reason for someone to shout OMFG! BATMAN! the second he enters the room. after all the effort in the first film about grounding things a bit it felt like Burtons Batman.

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