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Destiny: FIN


Gorf King
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Spanx, Cubik, why don't you boys team up and start to figure things out.

It really is an excellent game, but it seems like you're judging it on very limited playtime without even partying up with people of a similar level.

Fuck, I'm glad games like this are still being made. Coming straight off the back of Dark Souls, this learn through skill mechanic is such a badly missing part of recent games that I wonder where the fun is for the modern gamer.

I don't want to be patronizing and labeling either of you as that, but why are you trying to convince yourselves that the longevity of the game is bad? Give it time. Party up. It's fucking excellent.

Please don't give up at the first hurdle. But, if you do, I'm sure a new CoD will be along shortly. ;)

I'm not saying people aren't getting better at Destiny but many of the the systems in place are the opposite of learn through skill. If you're struggling on a mission you can level up, come back later and it'll be easier. That's not increasing your skill, that's increasing the damage of your weapons through time invested. Which is just about the worst thing about MMOs and the worst thing about Destiny. A solid game like this doesn't need a tangible reward for time invested that makes you more powerful than other players, your skill increase should be reward enough in a fast paced action game. Much like when I played Borderlands, I spent much of this game feeling like I needed something I didn't yet have. Like a rich man who is never satisfied and always wants more money.

Thanks for replying for me Timmo, I was gonna write the exact same thing but you've done it better than I would have.

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You have to give kudos to activsion for backing this in such a huge way. I mean the pitch, halo meets WOW, is a marketing mans dream but the reality is no one has done this before and there are big enough differences with both the aforementioned games that it still takes big balls to throw hundreds of Millon's of dollars at it.

Can't deny that, they've taken risks.

Incidentally the two guys from my work (both casual players) who I know bought this have both sold it, be interesting to see how many copies go back on a large scale.

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Thanks for replying for me Timmo, I was gonna write the exact same thing but you've done it better than I would have.

Some of the 'you don't get it' and 'wait for CoD' comments are a bit distasteful when this is clearly a game that isn't for everyone. That's the minority, though. I'm glad people are enjoying it despite me not and it's good to see my opinions aren't being shouted down or negged to oblivion.

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Xur is back! (Though he's down by the speaker today)

13 Coin class armours:

Warlock gloves "Sunbreakers" (Same as last week :( boo hiss)

Hunter Chest "Lucky Raspberry"

Titan Helm called "Helm of Inmost Light"

17 Coin weapon

Gjallarhorn Rocket Launcher

23 Motes of Light

Random chest Engram

Material Exchange

2k Glimmer / 77Spinmetal / 77 Spirit Bloom - Not tested what this gets you yet

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I'm not saying people aren't getting better at Destiny but many of the the systems in place are the opposite of learn through skill. If you're struggling on a mission you can level up, come back later and it'll be easier. That's not increasing your skill, that's increasing the damage of your weapons through time invested. Which is just about the worst thing about MMOs and the worst thing about Destiny. A solid game like this doesn't need a tangible reward for time invested that makes you more powerful than other players, your skill increase should be reward enough in a fast paced action game. Much like when I played Borderlands, I spent much of this game feeling like I needed something I didn't yet have. Like a rich man who is never satisfied and always wants more money.

I think that's only true as you progress through to level 20, which should happen as you play through the story missions. Over-levelling yourself is the equivalent of picking 'Normal' or 'Easy' in Halo. Going for your actual level or something just above is Heroic and Legendary. So I think it's a bit awkward leaving that in the hands of the player, and it can be annoying if you accidentally get ahead (as I'm in danger of doing).

What I'm realising is that the real rewards for playing longer term are in customisation rather than powering up. Basically, the perk system from COD, but applied seamlessly across single player, co-op and PVP rather than just PVP.

Now I'm getting more uncommon and rare gear I'm all pumped every time I get a new piece of armour or weapon as I can dive into the menus and see how it complements my other gear. I was playing solo last night and ended up with three things that increased hand cannon reload - a general buff from my arm armour, the 'chain of woe' class perk that increases reload speed as I chained together critical damage kills, plus a weapon upgrade that made reloading from empty faster still. As I progressed through the mission I felt like I was upgrading to becoming a better and better gunslinger and the perks were rewarding a certain play-style that was fun in itself - going for chained headshots and holding off on manual reloads.

Halo always got saddled with this idea that the formula was perfected in the first game and that any additions like new weapons and dual-wielding were just dilutions. I think Bungie's biggest achievement is that they've made a game with the same awesome FPS combat, added fuckloads of new new powers, tweaks and moves, and made it work brilliantly.

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I guess I feel cheated in a way as I wanted / expected the next step in FPS, that truly felt like an evolution, with vast lobbies I could walk around and squad up / chat, and worlds that felt vast with decent challenges. Adding MMO stats and seemingly constant respawning enemies just isn't cutting it for me, and the design of the game leaves a lot to be desired and feels very sterile in places (Tower etc). I do get now what they have aimed for, and it's a bit of a let down personally. They've wedged two genres together and made something that doesn't sit quite right in a lot of ways. I don't find the whole playing with others thing amazing either as I've done it better in so many other games too.

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Xur is back! (Though he's down by the speaker today)

13 Coin class armours:

Warlock gloves "Sunbreakers" (Same as last week :( boo hiss)

Hunter Chest "Lucky Raspberry"

Titan Helm called "Helm of Inmost Light"

17 Coin weapon

Gjallarhorn Rocket Launcher

23 Motes of Light

Random chest Engram

Material Exchange

2k Glimmer / 77Spinmetal / 77 Spirit Bloom - Not tested what this gets you yet

Glimmer is for a Strange Coin, but you can only but one a week.

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Xur is back! (Though he's down by the speaker today)

13 Coin class armours:

Warlock gloves "Sunbreakers" (Same as last week :( boo hiss)

Hunter Chest "Lucky Raspberry"

Titan Helm called "Helm of Inmost Light"

17 Coin weapon

Gjallarhorn Rocket Launcher

23 Motes of Light

Random chest Engram

Material Exchange

2k Glimmer / 77Spinmetal / 77 Spirit Bloom - Not tested what this gets you yet

Not what I wanted to hear!! Was hoping for different Warlock armour as I already have Legendary gauntlets.

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I will have those Sunbreakers by the end of the weekend!

Tried the heroic weekly last night, breezed our way to the boss but got butchered about 7 times on Phogoth before finally calling it. One of my friends was a little under-levelled and the other just isn't very good, so it was hard work ^_^

If anyone is available tonight that still needs to do it, or fancies giving me a helping hand through it'd be much appreciated.

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The more I play this, the more I like it; hitting 20 and being able to replay the story missions with the difficulty cranked up to your level makes a massive difference. I replayed the Earth mission where you have to reactivate the arrays last night with the difficulty pegged to level 20, and it was fucking fantastic – proper Halo-type thrills where I had to actually plan my attack and couldn’t just blast through the enemies with my insanely overpowered weapons.

Bungie have done well to resist the urge to let you buy marks or glimmer or strange coins, too. I hope that isn’t the plan down the road.

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Some of the 'you don't get it' and 'wait for CoD' comments are a bit distasteful when this is clearly a game that isn't for everyone. That's the minority, though. I'm glad people are enjoying it despite me not and it's good to see my opinions aren't being shouted down or negged to oblivion.

Distasteful? I even put a winky smiley at the end of my CoD comment.

And I do agree with you that the leveling up isn't really skill based, as it just happens the more you play. But, skill does come into the combat, where I'm now learning to know how to play against the enemies much better than when I first picked it up. It's like Halo in a lot of respects, where prolonged play reveals enemy weaknesses and you learn which guns, grenades and abilities to use.

So, I don't think either of us were wrong, we were just talking about different aspects of the game.

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I think that's only true as you progress through to level 20, which should happen as you play through the story missions. Over-levelling yourself is the equivalent of picking 'Normal' or 'Easy' in Halo. Going for your actual level or something just above is Heroic and Legendary. So I think it's a bit awkward leaving that in the hands of the player, and it can be annoying if you accidentally get ahead (as I'm in danger of doing).

So this isn't entirely accurate, IMO. It's true that if you're, say level 10, playing a level 8 mission will be a relative cakewalk, and playing a level 12 mission will be more difficult. But it'll be roughly the same experience, just more bullets needed to kill bad guys. What does make a qualitative difference is changing the difficulty of that level 8 mission to Hard (which would up the level req to 12, I think.) Yes, the bad guys level up, but also, their behaviours become more complex.

So The Fallen, for example. Normal: hide in cover, pop and shoot. Hard: Flush you out with grenades, Vandals seek out melee opportunities.

The Hive. Normal: Thralls charge at you, Acolytes pop and shoot, Knights and Wizard try to pick you off from long range. Hard: Thralls try to flank before charging, Acolytes move around a lot more. Knights and Wizards seem to make more intelligent use of their shields to close the gap and fuck you up.

The Vex. Normal: teleport to get out of trouble, walk and shoot. Hard: Hobgoblins stay at distance to pin you down, Goblins and Minotaurs use their teleport to try and swamp you.

I'm sure that's not a full or accurate list. But the game is significantly more complex on Hard. It's not just all about levelling. Although that is obviously a core component, given the RPG/MMO leanings.

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I only have 3 strange coins. What's the best way of getting them?

Ripped this from somewhere:

Strange Coin Location #1: 3 to 9 Strange Coins can be obtained by completing the Weekly Heroic Strike Mission. – By playing on the three difficulties you can receive 3, then 3 again, and finally another 3 Strange Coins; so a new set of coins gets rewarded for each difficulty level on their first completion.

Strange Coin Location #2: Between 4 to 8 Strange Coins can be obtained for completing the Weekly Nightfall Mission. – Nightfall can be found in the Strike Playlists, but it doesn’t unlock until you reach level 24.

Strange Coin Location #3: 1 or more Strange Coins are obtained by completing Strike Playlists at level 22 or level 24. – Even if you solo through Strike Playlists you can get these Strange Coins as completion rewards.

Strange Coin Location #4: 1 Strange Coin is sometimes received when decrypting the light blue Decoherent and purple Legendary Engrams. At present this is the closest you can get to Strange Coin farming in Destiny. – To make this easier for you, check out our “Destiny Rare & Legendary Engram Farming Guide” page.

Strange Coin Location #5: 1 Strange Coin will occasionally be rewarded to you for opening up Golden Chests. This most often seems to happen in the 4th Golden Chest on Mars at The Iron Line. – Find out where these chests are on our “Destiny Golden Chests Locations Guide” page.

Strange Coin Location #6: 1 Strange Coin is either given as a random loot drop or as a reward for killing the Draksis, the House of Winter’s Kell boss at the end of the “Story Mission: Scourge of Winter” on Venus. Once defeated, he will drop a ‘Strange Trinket’, which you’re then able to turn into the Cryptarch and he’ll give you a ‘Strange Coin’. — Thanks to KSI for the tip!

Strange Coin Location #7: 1 Strange Coin can be obtained by completing a Public Event. – These Fireteam group events may happen while on Patrol or within Strike missions. Afterwards the Postmaster in The Tower will have the Strange Coin for you.

Strange Coin Location #8: 1 Strange Coin is in rare cases received as a reward for finishing a Mission.

Strange Coin Location #9: 1 Strange Coin is in rare cases received as a The Crucible match reward.

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So this isn't entirely accurate, IMO. It's true that if you're, say level 10, playing a level 8 mission will be a relative cakewalk, and playing a level 12 mission will be more difficult. But it'll be roughly the same experience, just more bullets needed to kill bad guys. What does make a qualitative difference is changing the difficulty of that level 8 mission to Hard (which would up the level req to 12, I think.) Yes, the bad guys level up, but also, their behaviours become more complex.

So The Fallen, for example. Normal: hide in cover, pop and shoot. Hard: Flush you out with grenades, Vandals seek out melee opportunities.

The Hive. Normal: Thralls charge at you, Acolytes pop and shoot, Knights and Wizard try to pick you off from long range. Hard: Thralls try to flank before charging, Acolytes move around a lot more. Knights and Wizards seem to make more intelligent use of their shields to close the gap and fuck you up.

The Vex. Normal: teleport to get out of trouble, walk and shoot. Hard: Hobgoblins stay at distance to pin you down, Goblins and Minotaurs use their teleport to try and swamp you.

I'm sure that's not a full or accurate list. But the game is significantly more complex on Hard. It's not just all about levelling. Although that is obviously a core component, given the RPG/MMO leanings.

That's good to know. I've been playing missions almost exclusively on Hard. I thought it might be like the old Halo misunderstanding of AI improving as you up the skill level, when in fact it was an illusion caused by baddies simply staying alive longer to show off their range of behaviours on Legendary.

So the lesson is: level yourself appropriately to put the missions on Hard. Being on-par in solo mode feels about right.

Did the later Halo games add more challenging AI behaviours for the higher difficulties? Dodging, grenades and the like? It certainly felt so.

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Ripped this from somewhere:

Strange Coin Location #1: 3 to 9 Strange Coins can be obtained by completing the Weekly Heroic Strike Mission. – By playing on the three difficulties you can receive 3, then 3 again, and finally another 3 Strange Coins; so a new set of coins gets rewarded for each difficulty level on their first completion.

Strange Coin Location #2: Between 4 to 8 Strange Coins can be obtained for completing the Weekly Nightfall Mission. – Nightfall can be found in the Strike Playlists, but it doesn’t unlock until you reach level 24.

Strange Coin Location #3: 1 or more Strange Coins are obtained by completing Strike Playlists at level 22 or level 24. – Even if you solo through Strike Playlists you can get these Strange Coins as completion rewards.

Strange Coin Location #4: 1 Strange Coin is sometimes received when decrypting the light blue Decoherent and purple Legendary Engrams. At present this is the closest you can get to Strange Coin farming in Destiny. – To make this easier for you, check out our “Destiny Rare & Legendary Engram Farming Guide” page.

Strange Coin Location #5: 1 Strange Coin will occasionally be rewarded to you for opening up Golden Chests. This most often seems to happen in the 4th Golden Chest on Mars at The Iron Line. – Find out where these chests are on our “Destiny Golden Chests Locations Guide” page.

Strange Coin Location #6: 1 Strange Coin is either given as a random loot drop or as a reward for killing the Draksis, the House of Winter’s Kell boss at the end of the “Story Mission: Scourge of Winter” on Venus. Once defeated, he will drop a ‘Strange Trinket’, which you’re then able to turn into the Cryptarch and he’ll give you a ‘Strange Coin’. — Thanks to KSI for the tip!

Strange Coin Location #7: 1 Strange Coin can be obtained by completing a Public Event. – These Fireteam group events may happen while on Patrol or within Strike missions. Afterwards the Postmaster in The Tower will have the Strange Coin for you.

Strange Coin Location #8: 1 Strange Coin is in rare cases received as a reward for finishing a Mission.

Strange Coin Location #9: 1 Strange Coin is in rare cases received as a The Crucible match reward.

Tidy. Thanks QuackQuack.

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You've just described all loot games. I guess you either like loot games you don't.

I'd just really like to see a game like this, with thousands of gun and equipment variants, and different daily strikes and new challenges, but with all the equipment unlocked from the start, putting the gameplay onus on trying different strategies and actual teamwork. I think it's just not really been done yet.

Imagine an enemy who had a weakspot that could only be hit with a shotgun blast, but it's covered with a plate that can only be destroyed with a sniper round, or an enemy that only takes damage when hit with two different types of projectile at the same time... or level design that only allowed one person to enter on the ground floor, while his partners are above giving cover.That sort of stuff to me is much more interesting than 'this enemy is a level 20 so I cant kill it cos i'm a level 18'.

I know people like the little rush they get from unlocks and loot, but it's not gameplay. It's the same rush you get from seeing that 30 people have liked something you posted on facebook, it's just feeding some sort of inherent reward chasing we have. I'd rather in this game the actual task at hand WAS the reward.

Tried to play campaign with 2 mates last night. One at 21, one at 17 and one at 11. There was nothing we could do together so had to hit the crucible.

Not only is it shitty design, but i'm actually baffled that there are people who don't think it's shitty design.

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Tried to play campaign with 2 mates last night. One at 21, one at 17 and one at 11. There was nothing we could do together so had to hit the crucible.

Not only is it shitty design, but i'm actually baffled that there are people who don't think it's shitty design.

Diablo 3 solves this problem with Apprentice mode (essentially, the lower level guys get temporary stat boosts so they can play.)

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I'm up to level 10 now and on the moon, seeing far more people around which is helping and the moon is fun, ish.

The numbers are still killing it for me, they are pointless apart from telling you whether you got a headshot and changing guns constantly to keep up with the increases is tedious and unnecessary to the gameplay.

I am enjoying it and once I'm not completely underpowered I'm sure the multiplayer will click but its still a lonely experience with all the people I know being on bone and me on 360.

So pointless apart from serving the exact function they are there for?

I personally find the numbers really satisfying and its the most accurate way to convey to you exactly how your current set up of gear is working for you.

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I'd just really like to see a game like this, with thousands of gun and equipment variants, and different daily strikes and new challenges, but with all the equipment unlocked from the start, putting the gameplay onus on trying different strategies and actual teamwork. I think it's just not really been done yet.

The problem with that, is people like me become bored very quickly. Guild Wars 2 had the idea that PvP would be completely fair with gear sets being available to everyone, and you just pick and choose which bits you want and go from there.

It was great to begin with. Winning games based purely on skill instead of winning because I'd spent half my waking hours in arenas grinding out the very best new kit. But it soon got boring. There was no sense of progression. I needed that gear treadmill like WoW had to keep me going.

Imagine an enemy who had a weakspot that could only be hit with a shotgun blast, but it's covered with a plate that can only be destroyed with a sniper round, or an enemy that only takes damage when hit with two different types of projectile at the same time... or level design that only allowed one person to enter on the ground floor, while his partners are above giving cover.That sort of stuff to me is much more interesting than 'this enemy is a level 20 so I cant kill it cos i'm a level 18'.

Surely that's still possible to implement. Just because you grind out new gear doesn't mean that certain Strike encounters couldn't require more than the usual tank and spank approach.

Tried to play campaign with 2 mates last night. One at 21, one at 17 and one at 11. There was nothing we could do together so had to hit the crucible.

Not only is it shitty design, but i'm actually baffled that there are people who don't think it's shitty design.

It really is quite poor that you can't play with your friends unless you specifically only play with them when you're both on (I solo levelled a Titan, and then played my Hunter only when Trigg was on).

I'm not sure why they couldn't introduce a handicap to the higher levelled character or something maybe?

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It's MMO design Craig. Why would you even think you could walk a lvl 11 into a level 22 mission? In any game? If you don't like games with levelling based progression, you're not going to like this game built around level based progression.

I wish people would stop complaining that the game isn't something it isn't.

The whole thing you described with enemies only being killed with specific weapons is exactly how the game works. Only it's done by elemental type rather than weapon type. And the bit about needing two types of projectiles at once happens often too. Last night Banjaxed and I had to co-ordinate our attacks on a bunch of wizards, with me taking their fire shields down with my fire shotgun and him nuking their health bar down as quickly as possible while I reloaded my fire shotgun ready to hit the shields again as soon as they came back up. When we got bum-rushed by five wizards at once we juggled our supers, generating orbs of light for each other so we could keep recasting our supers. It would have been impossible if we hadn't coordinated the timing, target and damage type of our attacks.

FWIW as a level 25 I've regularly gone into missions with lvl 20 and 21 people and we've been fine. Precisely because they understand the mechanics and are good at the game. You don't need everyone to be dishing damage constantly, a lower level player can be equally helpful in a support role by generating orbs of light, resurrecting and concentrating on taking shields down.

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Bloody typical - Xur turns up, and the only two exotics I can buy are Chest Armour and Rocket Launcher, which just this morning I had Legendary drops of and have spent resources upgrading.

I swear this game has a hidden code that says "fuck you and your grinding, you should've waited". :hmm:

So do I ditch the purple and go yellow?

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It's MMO design Craig. Why would you even think you could walk a lvl 11 into a level 22 mission? In any game? If you don't like games with levelling based progression, you're not going to like this game built around level based progression.

I wish people would stop complaining that the game isn't something it isn't.

The whole thing you described with enemies only being killed with specific weapons is exactly how the game works. Only it's done by elemental type rather than weapon type. And the bit out needing two types of projectiles at once happens often too. Last night Banjaxed and I had to co-ordinate our attacks on a bunch of wizards, with me taking their fire shields down with my fire shotgun and nuking their health bar down as quickly as possible while I reloaded my fire shotgun ready to hit the shields again as soon as they came back up. When we got bum-rushed by five wizards at once we juggled our supers, generated orbs of light for each other so we could keep recasting our supers. It would have been impossible if we hadn't coordinated the timing, target and damage type of our attacks.

FWIW as a level 25 I've regularly gone into missions with lvl 20 and 21 people and we've been fine. Precisely because they understand the mechanics and are good at the game. You don't need everyone to be dishing damage constantly, a lower level player can be equally helpful in a support role by generating orbs of light, resurrecting and concentrating on taking shields down.

Yip, this tactic hit home with me last night as well, you can really start to chain those supers together.

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It's MMO design Craig. Why would you even think you could walk a lvl 11 into a level 22 mission? In any game? If you don't like games with levelling based progression, you're not going to like this game built around level based progression.

I wish people would stop complaining that the game isn't something it isn't.

It's not necessarily MMO. It's RPG. Demon's Souls, for example. There are enemies you can find when you start that you have no hope of denting. But no-one would suggest that those games aren't skill-based at their core. They just also have levelling.

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It's not necessarily MMO. It's RPG. Demon's Souls, for example. There are enemies you can find when you start that you have no hope of denting. But no-one would suggest that those games aren't skill-based at their core. They just also have levelling.

Definitely true. But I was referring specifically to three players of massively different levels not being able to play together. I can't think of an MMO or online RPG variant which allows you to do this apart from Diablo 3.

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I'd just really like to see a game like this, with thousands of gun and equipment variants, and different daily strikes and new challenges, but with all the equipment unlocked from the start, putting the gameplay onus on trying different strategies and actual teamwork. I think it's just not really been done yet.

Imagine an enemy who had a weakspot that could only be hit with a shotgun blast, but it's covered with a plate that can only be destroyed with a sniper round, or an enemy that only takes damage when hit with two different types of projectile at the same time... or level design that only allowed one person to enter on the ground floor, while his partners are above giving cover.That sort of stuff to me is much more interesting than 'this enemy is a level 20 so I cant kill it cos i'm a level 18'.

I know people like the little rush they get from unlocks and loot, but it's not gameplay. It's the same rush you get from seeing that 30 people have liked something you posted on facebook, it's just feeding some sort of inherent reward chasing we have. I'd rather in this game the actual task at hand WAS the reward.

Apart from the 'open from the start' thing, what you describe is broadly what Destiny is.

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