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Banjo Kazooie: Nuts N Bolts


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We get to discuss Stop n Swap until our eyeballs bleed, and are left as drunk as Capt Blubber as dancing Jinjos fly above our heads and Goby is taking us to that extra special awesome 10th world in Tooie.

Elmo is merely trolling now rather then making a counter discussion, so I won't waste words in that direction. I didn't call the game good, just unique. N&B had its own niggles as well when taken for its own game.

Having to 'drive' jiggies to locations is annoying as hell. Out of cars and you can't do much, sea exploration in particular is ruined. The levels are at times incoherent in art style, mixing a mish bash of visual elements in some smaller areas rather then keep the whole zone a single beautiful setting (which from the outset when you first enter, the levels are). A fairly pointless Kazooie compared to yester-year, Many challenges just didn't feel 'that' polished or hard thought out, how many were straight out racing compared to the more unique set pieces? How many times did it pretty much force you to tweak a car for another half hour before you could take on the next challenge as well as you'd like? (because the pre-built cars are crap) I'd call that on-par to FF cutscenes, not 'gameplay' at all.

I could ask for a lot more indeed.

Those that somehow regard this as better then the 3D platformers of the heyday - I can only respect that opinion and disagree with it personally. I could however ask as to why and how. Besides the age of the formers, do people still consider this in line with same genre of Mario Galaxy? Or is the fact it did stuff overly different overwrites that somehow.

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Personally, I find Banjo-Kazooie really boring. A bland collectathon posing as a platformer, with very little thrill or joy to be found moment-to-moment. I accept it has a more coherent world and emphasis on exploration, but I find it thoroughly dull, whereas Nuts & Bolts is continually entertaining, even when just tweaking vehicles to retry levels (how is that not gameplay? It's directly involving the player in an interactive process.).

Beyond that, I generally find every element of Nuts & Bolts to be an improvement over the old game(s). Level design, art style, imagination, challenge. I don't think they're even that different in terms of genre; it's more of a slight tangent (into something more fun :P ).

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Agreed. Plus there were so many better games out in 98. For a then pauper like me it felt like quite a waste of money given what else I could have bought.

I really like nuts and bolts apart from the last couple of challenges which pissed me off a lot.

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I loved Nuts and Bolts :). The mission that 'sealed the deal' for me was the one where you have to protect an egg (?) from invading planes; I spent ages coming up with all sorts of little planes to fight off the enemy and failed each time, so then decided to see if I could get away with building a massive glider with a huge tea tray on the back so I could pick the egg up, plonk it on that and then spend the entire time duration zooming around the edges of the level keeping the thing safe. Worked a treat!

EDIT: Oh wait, no - it was a statue that you had to protect. The egg was in a mission in the same game world, and that had loads of solutions too! You had to cook it in the volcano by getting it there in time - seem to remember that you could achieve this by car which in theory was a slower but safer route, or via a plane which was quicker but much more tricky to achieve.

Man, I've made myself want to play it again now!

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Having to 'drive' jiggies to locations is annoying as hell.

That's such a minor part of the game it's barely worth mentioning. I found it a little annoying, but only because I was being extremely awkward and seeing how many I could take at once, rather than taking them as I got them, for the sake of me setting stupid challenges for myself. It's not something the game is forcing you to do. And hey, if you hate taking things backwards and forwards so much, why don't you loathe banjoo-tooie?

Out of cars and you can't do much, sea exploration in particular is ruined.

yes? Go back in the vehicle. Maybe make a little submarine

The levels are at times incoherent in art style, mixing a mish bash of visual elements in some smaller areas rather then keep the whole zone a single beautiful setting (which from the outset when you first enter, the levels are).

This sentence barely makes sense and I'm not sure what you're talking about. I'm fairly certain the stuff mashed together like props in an artiificial world was completely intentional.

A fairly pointless Kazooie compared to yester-year, Many challenges just didn't feel 'that' polished or hard thought out, how many were straight out racing compared to the more unique set pieces?

Some? an amount? Is racing supposed to be a bad thing? Is doing similar things with variations not fun anymore? Yeah, kazooie's not much use because it's not a platformer. Neither is banjo. Or anybody else really.

How many times did it pretty much force you to tweak a car for another half hour before you could take on the next challenge as well as you'd like? (because the pre-built cars are crap) I'd call that on-par to FF cutscenes, not 'gameplay' at all.

The entire point of the game is to build your own vehicles to acomplish different tasks. That is the game. It's not gameplay in the same way that minecraft isn't, or theme park isn't, or every game where you build anything isn't. Ie, yes it is gameplay.

Those that somehow regard this as better then the 3D platformers of the heyday - I can only respect that opinion and disagree with it personally. I could however ask as to why and how. Besides the age of the formers, do people still consider this in line with same genre of Mario Galaxy? Or is the fact it did stuff overly different overwrites that somehow.

Do people consider this in line with the same genre of mario galaxy? Well I'd answer that question if it made any sense at all. I don't think nuts and bolts is a platformer, and I don't think N&B is to the old banjos as mario galaxy is to the old marios. N&B isn't that much of a continuation or evolution. I see enough similarities to make it reasonable to use the same characters.

Look, I can kind of see where you're coming from. It's very annoying when someone takes a series in a direction you don't personally like, and changes too much. I used to get really annoyed about the whole metroid thing. But don't pretend that you're getting annoyed for any reason but that. N&B isn't a bad game, for what it is. No, it's not like the old banjo kazooies. But a lot of us thought tooie was terrible, and rare had probably lost their ability to make good games after starfox adventures, ghoulies, pd0, kameo...

So such a bit change of direction was welcome and necessary to get our attention really.

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EDIT: Oh wait, no - it was a statue that you had to protect. The egg was in a mission in the same game world, and that had loads of solutions too! You had to cook it in the volcano by getting it there in time - seem to remember that you could achieve this by car which in theory was a slower but safer route, or via a plane which was quicker but much more tricky to achieve.

Man, I've made myself want to play it again now!

Or by catapault like arrangement, which went... poorly.

I never quite finished the very last mission where you had to make 1 vehicle do a lot of things.

I guess I'm out of practice now, can you redo challenges you already did?

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I think so! Hah, and I can imagine the catapult being a glorious failure :)

Loved the way the game just sparked the frustrated design engineer in me. Fairly early on, and for no apparent reason, I just built a huge pogo stick on wheels and spent at least an hour almost crying with laughter as I flew off in random directions (often with spectacularly disastrous results). Tremendous stuff. Also, the Pinball Car I created which, on the slightest bump from any direction, would go smashing around like a mental spinning top.

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Elmo, did you really think we would fall for your "trolling with well considered and concisely argued points" again?

See Chris on the moon for 'well considered and concisely argued points' on the games own merits.

Elmo's was more so 'Why would you want anything else I don't understand anything you just said, you nuts man!'. At least from my prospective.

Not that I haven't made an arrogant comment or two either not understanding older fans like for this (over mario64/bk? my word!), but I don't flat out ignore the other side of it, either. And indeed its merits.

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Elmo's was more so 'Why would you want anything else I don't understand anything you just said, you nuts man!'. At least from my prospective.

Sorry if i came across like that.

I was first questioning this statement:

You didn't have to for the first two games.

It makes no sense. Are you saying that the previous two games were better because you didn't have to adapt your approach to each individual task? Surely that's a bad thing isn't it? The idea behind Nuts and Bolts is that you're presented with a task, you review the task and you spend time in the workshop adjusting your vehicle to to suit the task ahead. Isn't that fantastic, that one vehicle wont solve every problem, be it a race, VIP mission, flying whatever.

Then when i questioned you on it you told me to go search another thread for your thoughts. Sorry, that's not really how forums work. If you want to make a point in a thread, make it.

You then went on to say how Banjo Kazooie fans were upset with the direction Rare took the series. I'm a fan, i'm not disappointed at all! You're not speaking for me there. Would i like a new Banjo platformer? Absolutely, but i'm not bitter that this isn't one.

The main issue is that you're comparing this to the platformers of old. This is a completely different game. It's not a platformer, it's nothing like one. It's a different sort of game, it feels fresh, new and it's fucking wicked.

As for the level design, yeah i don't agree with you there at all. Nutty Acres and Banjo Land are not only wonderful to look at they are perfectly designed. Showdown town is really fun to explore too.

So i'm not with you. You may dislike the game, you may hate the direction they've taken but it's certainly not a bad game, and it's not a slap in the face of the fans in any way shape or form.

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  • 2 months later...

Seems I forgot to respond at the time. The main theme is that some people (and indeed some fans) want N&B appreciated for what it is, rather then what it isn't. Mainly due to being a completely different sort of game. While that logic is sound in most cases (and I noted even myself that it was bold of them to try something that new), it doesn't give the game merit for the franchise and developer it houses. Because it continually took the piss out of fans that appreciated the platformer model, and continued the plot of the franchise in what is basically a off-shoot game, aka, treating it as if it's Threeie in all but name. All but the gameplay. That is what makes N&B insulting (at least to me, personally).

A totally different genre of game doesn't warrant it a right of passage for fans to accept/be willing to give a good shot before judging. Choosing to shut up simply because its a different genre is not valid argument material, for fans that care to have a new Banjo 3D platformer instead.

Anyway, got reminded of the thread thanks to some links. Ex-Rare staff want to make spiritual successor to Tooie:

https://twitter.com/MingyJongo

Supporting with both my kidneys, as you might imagine.

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  • 1 month later...

3*

You really don't want me to link every bashful comment across the internet about it, I'm sure.

I would have the time to do it, but that's not the point. Every viewpoint has been heard, and that's the fairest thing to be able to say in a discussion.

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  • 8 years later...

I am fully stunned by NEG in this thread. I mean, it's NEG I know and he's gone so has no right to reply but Jesus CHRIST. I'm going to give this a download today I think, I know it used to run pretty terribly on 360, will the One X give a stable framerate? 

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2 hours ago, carlospie said:

This game is AMAZING. graphically it still holds up so well and the gameplay is fun. Odd because I hated it first time round 

Does it run nicely on the Series X? 

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1 hour ago, BitterToad said:

I am fully stunned by NEG in this thread. I mean, it's NEG I know and he's gone so has no right to reply but Jesus CHRIST. I'm going to give this a download today I think, I know it used to run pretty terribly on 360, will the One X give a stable framerate? 

Yes.

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Always a game I felt got unfairly hated on because of what is wasn't - a traditional sequel. 

 

It is, however, a fantastic game and a great game to look at. A shame it didn't perform very well so we never got any of the hinted at DLC. 

 

You could be properly inventive in some of the challenges. Don't want to race conventionally, just create a battleship and blow everyone else apart!

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1 hour ago, BitterToad said:

I am fully stunned by NEG in this thread. I mean, it's NEG I know and he's gone so has no right to reply but Jesus CHRIST. I'm going to give this a download today I think, I know it used to run pretty terribly on 360, will the One X give a stable framerate? 

It does on series X. Looks like it good have been release today

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