Mr Benn, I call you out...

[therealjohnpeat]

I didnt mention anything about using current lvl 60 xp to level, where did you come up with that?

http://www.rllmukforum.com/index.php?s=&sh...dpost&p=3489113

Clear as clear can be IMO - but it's an aside.

All I'm saying here, is that I'm convinced you believe that you're going to be able to do the holy trinity of Tank/DPS/Heal interchangeably without the problems which currently 'pigeonhole' you being a hurdle (equipment, talents etc.) - and I genuinely think you're going to find out that it's not the case.

Paladins are - IMO - designed around 1 concept - offering the easiest possible class to play (Blizzard said this in so-many-words at Blizzcon) - Paladins don't have the ability to do these things not because they want you to be a utility-knife, but because they don't want you to complain that you can't do them cos everyone else can and wah wah wah wah...

So - you can do the holy trinity - but you'll never be able to refine any of those 3 things to the point you can match someone who's taken a class designed with that purpose in-mind - we're just not going to let that happen - sorry - we're 'pr0' @)

You also seem to believe that life as DPS or Tank is more fun and varied - and I think you'll find that doing those to the exclusion of all-else is no less exciting then being a Healbot - I can definately say this for Raid DPS - I'm only partly-qualified to comment on the Tanking thing...

Finally, I started this thread with only 1 purpose in mind - I didn't intend to deflect you or anyone else from your chosen path - however I did want to make sure that you couldn't EVER turn around and say

"But I never expected..."

or

"It's not fair that I can't..."

and so on...

Is all...

[sprite]

Going by Blizzard class descriptions is dodgy ground, the amount they change the classes.

Druids, for example, have been referred to as 'hybrids' and 'primary healers'

Oh, now we're both lol

Shammys and Pallys are both the same, though... http://wow-europe.com/en/info/classes/index.html

[bcofn]

Paladins are - IMO - designed around 1 concept - offering the easiest possible class to play (Blizzard said this in so-many-words at Blizzcon) - Paladins don't have the ability to do these things not because they want you to be a utility-knife, but because they don't want you to complain that you can't do them cos everyone else can and wah wah wah wah...

While I agree with this to an extent, the sheer number of bad paladins out there (Blessing of Salvation? Sorry I didn't bother training that one... I kid you not) shows that it's not the easiest class to play. Indeed while doing all I think you should be doing in a group I find it far more hectic being a paladin that I do being a rogue (or my limited time as a warrior for that matter)...

...It's still doing support though

[Mr Ben]

http://www.rllmukforum.com/index.php?s=&sh...dpost&p=3489113

Clear as clear can be IMO - but it's an aside.

That was because I'd seen a lot of people saying they kept the xp that they had when they hit 60, not that you could hand in pvp tokens or what have you to lvl. So if you had say 600 xp on your bar when you dinged 60, they said that carried over when you could lvl to 61 for example. Others have said that wouldnt happen, but I remain unconvinced untill I see otherwise is what I meant. Meh, long explanation I know

Playing a Paladin now, I'm more or less full Ret spec (dps lol) for PvP more than anything, but I can still heal. The only thing at the moment thats stopping my Shaman from speccing out of Mana Tide is the Patchwerk fight more or less, as all ways of getting mana are bloody well needed on that fight unfortunately. As a result its not worth doing, despite not being able to do a lot outside of raids. If I had the same gear on my Paladin for example, I could heal as well, but I'd still have enough points to put into Ret so I could have some fun for example. Full Holy isnt really needed as much as full Resto unfortunately, as BoW is a base ability.

The tank thing is more or less a fun idea for me, but having people poo poo it completely is rather irritating to be honest, as those that are doing it either havent looked at the relevant talents/abilities, or are just objecting to the idea because of an "I R Warrior" attitude. Whats the matter? Scared that a Paladin may be able to out-tank you? Good grief.

[sprite]

Whats the matter? Scared that a Paladin may be able to out-tank you? Good grief.

How many feral druids do you know that take the place of warriors in raids currently? Not many.... because healing is needed more than warriors, and it's not as if a prot warrior, who has spent 100 days /played or so gearing up his character to an awesome tanking standard, can suddenly turn around and do viable raid DPS, so then he'll be replaced by a rogue, or a mage, or something.

Do you anticipate that guilds that have supported their warriors and built up relationships with them will suddenly turn around and say 'oh, hang on, this paladin can do your job, bai m8'? That's even *if* a paladin would be able to step right into a warrior's role. I confess to speculation as I don't have the time nor willpower to study the class that intensely...

It's more than being just about abilities and talents, it's about helping and supporting your friends/comrades who are more or less forced into only one role. Yes, maybe shaman are forced into a healing/totem stomper role, but that's only because that is the thing they can offer that no one else can.

Even within the healers, each compliments one another. A tank with a Renew/Rejuvenation/Regrowth on him is better than the tank in the raid group with 10 priests and no druids, where he only gets the one HoT. A tank being spammed by a priest's choice spell, a druid's choice spell and a shaman's choice spell will get a constant stream of staggered healing, according to the variation in cast times etc. A party getting chain healed will survive longer than the one who only has a druid casting Tranquility every 5 minutes.

Exaggerations, sure. But each class compliments one another. No one said being a healer and conserving mana was going to be an easy job, I'd argue it as one of the more difficult in fact, thus we all struggle. And there's an awful lot of responsibility on your shoulders. Take the shaman out of Hordeside raid groups and they will suffer massively, guaranteed.

And going back to Blizzard's descriptions well, no one said they were meant to be true of raiding, did they? Druid: "Hybrid, Primary Healer, Excellent solo class" or similar. No one says that the 'hybrid' part is *meant* to apply in Naxxramas. That's only one aspect of the game, and one we've all been in for so very long that it might be hard to think outside it.

[therealjohnpeat]

The tank thing is more or less a fun idea for me, but having people poo poo it completely is rather irritating to be honest, as those that are doing it either havent looked at the relevant talents/abilities, or are just objecting to the idea because of an "I R Warrior" attitude. Whats the matter? Scared that a Paladin may be able to out-tank you? Good grief.

Paladins will NEVER be as good at tanking as Prot-Spec Warriors - GET THIS IDEA NOW - if they were, no-one would want Warriors and everyone who's rolled one would kinda EXPLODE

The same principle applies to Healing and DPS

The ONLY area that a "so-called hybrid" can excell is the one they are uniquely able to do - and that, for Paladins and Shamans, is buffing - nothing more.

You will always be 2nd rate at tanking - honestly, it's not that hard an idea to grasp - you cannot, CANNOT, hold onto the idea that Paladin is an option if you want to be a top-class Tank - or DPS - or Healer - the remainder of the players in the game won't permit it - everyone would just roll a Paladin!!

It's possible that there will be roles for someone who can Tank one fight and then Heal another and then DPS for a bit at some point - perhaps - but in each case you will be doing less than a 'dedicated' person in that role could do - so the ONLY reason for putting such things into encounters is to add diversity/allow for a more varied raid class-mix

It's NOT to offer you a 1 char solution to everything in the game at the highest possible level and never will be

Not that I think you can grasp this

[sith]

Before these asumptions maybe we should all wait for TBC?

Not that I care my 60 warrior is doing just fine

[Mr Ben]

Paladins will NEVER be as good at tanking as Prot-Spec Warriors - GET THIS IDEA NOW - if they were, no-one would want Warriors and everyone who's rolled one would kinda EXPLODE

The same principle applies to Healing and DPS

The ONLY area that a "so-called hybrid" can excell is the one they are uniquely able to do - and that, for Paladins and Shamans, is buffing - nothing more.

You will always be 2nd rate at tanking - honestly, it's not that hard an idea to grasp - you cannot, CANNOT, hold onto the idea that Paladin is an option if you want to be a top-class Tank - or DPS - or Healer - the remainder of the players in the game won't permit it - everyone would just roll a Paladin!!

It's possible that there will be roles for someone who can Tank one fight and then Heal another and then DPS for a bit at some point - perhaps - but in each case you will be doing less than a 'dedicated' person in that role could do - so the ONLY reason for putting such things into encounters is to add diversity/allow for a more varied raid class-mix

It's NOT to offer you a 1 char solution to everything in the game at the highest possible level and never will be

Not that I think you can grasp this

Paladins probably wont tank as well as a full Prot spec Warrior, but you never know, they may be able to. Admittedly they'd be crap at healing and damage as they'd have to put all their talents into being able to tank, but then so does a Prot Warrior really. I wouldnt spec full Prot other than for a laugh once in a blue moon, but it has been stated by someone in the Beta that they can hold aggro very well, and that was someone who hadnt "tanked" before apparently.

Maybe this was only for 5 man stuff (I seriously doubt they could tank 25 man raid bosses, but trash maybe, who knows), but it frees up those people who would want to do an instance and cant get a Warrior but can get a Paladin. Same goes for a Druid now. It offers an extra class to tank in a pinch.

On the Nefarian encounter (which we probably wont do anymore, but bear with me) the Paladin class call makes Neffy immune to physical damage, and spellcasters have to hold dps. With a Paladin *with* TBC talents etc specced for prot, he could, theoretically, tank Nef and have casters keep dps'ing, thanks to the fact Holy damage goes through the shield. Add 90% extra threat from holy damage on top of that, and he could possibly keep aggro untill after the class call, where all he has to do is pop bubble to lose aggro and the MT can just pick him back up. This is obviously theory craft, but I cant see anything that could stop this from working other than the fear aspect of course

[PinkMoon]

Playing a Paladin now, I'm more or less full Ret spec (dps lol) for PvP more than anything, but I can still heal. The only thing at the moment thats stopping my Shaman from speccing out of Mana Tide is the Patchwerk fight more or less, as all ways of getting mana are bloody well needed on that fight unfortunately. As a result its not worth doing, despite not being able to do a lot outside of raids. If I had the same gear on my Paladin for example, I could heal as well, but I'd still have enough points to put into Ret so I could have some fun for example. Full Holy isnt really needed as much as full Resto unfortunately, as BoW is a base ability.

The tank thing is more or less a fun idea for me, but having people poo poo it completely is rather irritating to be honest, as those that are doing it either havent looked at the relevant talents/abilities, or are just objecting to the idea because of an "I R Warrior" attitude. Whats the matter? Scared that a Paladin may be able to out-tank you? Good grief.

This last wee bit is kinda rude. I don't think TRJP is really too bothered about the warrior class these days. His arguments come from a pretty class-neutral PoV if you ask me; I think he's just looking out for you and trying to guard you from possible disappointment in the expansion.

As for your shaman spec... that mana tide is awesomely useful in so many fights in Naxx, for your entire group. To lose it would be a massive nerf to the raid; it's not just about what it does for you. Everyone makes sacrifices in a raid group. I'm lucky in that my class dictates that levelling isn't really affected by my spec, but I fucking hate playing fire - aggro issues, no real control, dull PvP etc. It does get the job done in raids though.

Can I ask what you do/use in the Patchwerk fight to help you out? How do you do things? What consumables do you use?

[sir stiff_one]

I fucking hate reading all this bulshit from Mr Bullshit himself John Peat.

You're on Mr Benn's ass all the time, I don't get it?

If a Warrior can DPS and Tank better than any class then why shouldn't a Paladin be able to Tank and Heal? Eh? You're so short sighted and it's painful to read your ranting and wittering about stuff you really don't know all that much about.

It's possible that there will be roles for someone who can Tank one fight and then Heal another and then DPS for a bit at some point - perhaps - but in each case you will be doing less than a 'dedicated' person in that role could do - so the ONLY reason for putting such things into encounters is to add diversity/allow for a more varied raid class-mix

This is so right but you say it like it's a bad thing!

Ok so you've got one fight where you need mostly DPS, one fight where you need mostly healing and one fight where you need extra tanks. Hybrid classes offer great flexibility. With a Paladin and Shaman in the group, they can cover all these roles - just like Druids can bear tank if needed.

The way you talk about stuff makes everything seem so rigid it doesn't sound like a game at all.

I do imagine that the level 70 5 man dungeons in Hard mode will need a specific dynamic in the group more than others, but I don't think it will be as clear cut as you assume. Everything I've read seems to indicate Paladins will be better at tanking than ever (and why not?).

I'm so looking forward to all the changes and everything, but you two argue away like a pair of pensioners and make it seem like it's the Eastenders expansion pack that's coming out. Chill out!

[Mr Ben]

I'm so looking forward to all the changes and everything, but you two argue away like a pair of pensioners and make it seem like it's the Eastenders expansion pack that's coming out. Chill out!

I cant wait either, and the reason I'm arguing is because it irritates me that people are so short sighted about the upcoming changes. I'm glad your not one of them though. Its gonna be pretty good for hybrids finally I think. Cant say its not about time either

And to Gramme, I use all the same consumables a Priest/Druid uses, barring the Flask. That includes Magebloods, mana oils, mana pots, NDB's and Mana Tide and the Enamored Water Totem (trinket). I got an innervate the last but one kill, but not the last one, though our dps was higher that time I think.

[Nicky]

amen

[kitten]

Paladins will NEVER be as good at tanking as Prot-Spec Warriors - GET THIS IDEA NOW - if they were, no-one would want Warriors and everyone who's rolled one would kinda EXPLODE

No, but perhaps it isn't too much of a headache to consider that a paladin who specced for tanking could be a better tank than a warrior who hadn't? If that makes some people explode then I have little sympathy for them.

I know most paladins currently heal in end-game - that's a) what all classes who can heal are usually expected to do, B) the role that's best supported by current talents and (most) itemisation. But I do think talents and itemisation are changing sufficiently for people to consider different roles in the expansion. Whether they'll hold up at level 70 raid levels nobody yet knows - but it should be very interesting to find out.

[PinkMoon]

I cant wait either, and the reason I'm arguing is because it irritates me that people are so short sighted about the upcoming changes. I'm glad your not one of them though. Its gonna be pretty good for hybrids finally I think. Cant say its not about time either

And to Gramme, I use all the same consumables a Priest/Druid uses, barring the Flask. That includes Magebloods, mana oils, mana pots, NDB's and Mana Tide and the Enamored Water Totem (trinket). I got an innervate the last but one kill, but not the last one, though our dps was higher that time I think.

As far as my arguing goes, it's just that (perversely!) I'm more pessimistic about the future for shamans/paladins than you are, Khaz. Looking forward to the changes, but just don't want you to be disappointed.

With respect to your mana issues on Patchwerk, you should farm some Dark/Demonic Runes (I forget which) from the satyrs in Felwood/Azshara. Even one per attempt would make a big difference to your mana pool compared to the NDB. I'm like Seve and his Amex - I never leave home without them...

[therealjohnpeat]

You're on Mr Benn's ass all the time, I don't get it?

I've been playing alongside Mr Ben now for a LONG time - probably most of a year or more - back in the ABA days and then in Chim - so I've been in the path of a LOT of his complaints and moods (and he's been in the path of a few of mine I'm sure - not just the stuff on here - Tink's Ventrillo and Chim TS and Chim Guild Chat and much much more.

I've tried many, many times to offer help and suggestions but it's just a vicious circle of "if it's not that it's this" and everytime you pin down an issue he finds something else on which he places his hopes only to shortly thereafter vents his furies...

This whole "Paladins are the solution to all my problems" thing is the begining of what could be an even worse situation IMO - so I started this thread in the hope we could at least START with some realistic expectations of what's in store.

I cannot bear the thought that we're starting another year-long dirge of Paladin moans - I'm sure we'll get some, but if we have a sensible place to start (e.g. not assuming Paladins can be the best at everything there is!!) it may just be a bit more bearable for everyone INCLUDING Mr Benn.

I'd really, really, really like Mr Ben to enjoy WoW a lot more - there are times when I really wonder why he plays, such is his sheer depression with it - perhaps it's just how be comes over in the limited communication we have, but regardless, it's just not good and I'm NOT kicking him (I actually backed him up on a fair few things in Chim - it's not a vendetta!!)

I don't actually care if Paladins can become the best tanks, healers and DPS in the game - I really, really don't - but if it did happen, the moaning from every other class would reach the point they'd only be nerfed anyway - so having a realistic perspective of what you're rolling is all I'm asking...

Variety IS a good thing - but MMOG developers are better at listening to complaints than they are suggestions as generally there are more complaints so they please more people

TBC will contain good and it will contain bad - it's no more likely to 'fix everything' than the Shaman review did - that was NOT an aberration where they didn't listen, MMOG developers do things their way NOT your way - this is something you need to learn the HARD way

You're so short sighted and it's painful to read your ranting and wittering about stuff you really don't know all that much about.

You don't have to read it - you can skip it in it's entirity - you can even block my posts at forum level - but you don't cos you LOVE IT you SLAG

You and that FCUKING AWFUL hat - SLAG hat - so awful it just might actually be cool - the dark side of cool perhaps.

[Devdas]

You're so short sighted and it's painful to read your ranting and wittering about stuff you really don't know all that much about.

You don't have to read it - you can skip it in it's entirity - you can even block my posts at forum level - but you don't cos you LOVE IT you SLAG

You and that FCUKING AWFUL hat - SLAG hat - so awful it just might actually be cool - the dark side of cool perhaps.

Forget to take your medication?

[therealjohnpeat]

You don't have to read it - you can skip it in it's entirity - you can even block my posts at forum level - but you don't cos you LOVE IT you SLAG

You and that FCUKING AWFUL hat - SLAG hat - so awful it just might actually be cool - the dark side of cool perhaps.

Forget to take your medication?

I am, in fact, a complex AI simulation designed purely to give people like Stiff something to "chew-on" - if I didn't exist he'd have to think of something constructive - I exist to relieve that difficult task...

I've done a year of winding him up by posting things he disagrees with - I've changed my approach now to agree with him a lot - a hell of a lot - by the time I'm finished he'll eat his fucking hat - believe me

[sir stiff_one]

No, since you started playing WoW you've turned from an irritating prat into someone who actually knows what they are talking about half the time and being quite sensible. It's been quite a transformation and it makes it even more irritating when you slip back into old mode. Especially recently where you and Mr Benn are like bickering sisters.

Looking through more stuff on TBC today and what's remarkable is how positive the reaction to everything is across the board. Usually players are ultra quick to get the boot in over anything, but there's been very little. It's great.

[therealjohnpeat]

I think there is a bit of 'newness' to TBC - a lot of people are VERY VERY worn down on WoW now (it's been 2 years in the US after-all) - so there will be a bit of 'a change is as good as a rest' going on perhaps.

Thing is tho - WoW was originally nothing 'new' - it simply took an existing formula and perfected it to a degree no-one had gotten close to before.

The people who did that - given the chance to enchance it - should really deliver something even-more-special *fingers crossed*

As for Mr Benn - I think we've scared him off - he seems to have stopped raiding and taken-up full-time Alliance Warrioring

PROPER class

[Mr Ben]

As for Mr Benn - I think we've scared him off - he seems to have stopped raiding and taken-up full-time Alliance Warrioring

PROPER class

Nope, thats Sith's character that I used for a bit while he raided. I've got a Paladin thats doing instances etc for gear while doing a bit of pvp, mining etc. Fun stuff.

[Kyouma]

Paladin tanking should be as good as warrior tanking. This would give warriors a chance to go DPS, and paladins a chance to tank instead of heal. If you've got a paladin whos 70% as good as a prot warrior, he would be better of healing or god forbid "DPS'ing" ret specced.

Warriors are DPS/Tank

Paladins Are going to be Heal/Tank or perhaps Ret specced melee support while dishing out respectable DPS, although i highly doubt the latter.

[Orchid]

Paladins are a hybrid class, all rounders at everything. Can we leave it at that?

[Colonel Panic]

If Paladins could be specced to be "as good" at every single task, why would anyone bother rolling anything else? The cost of a respec is a lot cheaper than levelling a 2nd or 3rd character.

It's funny how many people can get to level 60 and just not have a clue about the game. If half their energy was spent rerolling they'd have much more to be happy about.

I don't see what's wrong about being able to fill several roles in a pinch while not being AWESOME at any particular one. It adds a bit of variety to an otherwise simple game. Sure, itemization has been shit but TBC seems to have addressed that, and while for raids some things might not change much, there's still other stuff to do. Raiding is a choice, as is the class you play. If you're not enjoying it, fucking do something else.