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Killzone 2

rubberducker

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Isaac

Isaac

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From Joystiq:

The card glibly invites its recipient to attend a unique two and a half hour Sony event on the evening of July 10th, just as Min-E3 gets underway.

So anybody know if any sites will be live-blogging this event, assuming it's still today?

And if so, anybody know what time UK-wise we'll start to see the info hit the web?

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Beertiger

Beertiger

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From Joystiq:

So anybody know if any sites will be live-blogging this event, assuming it's still today?

And if so, anybody know what time UK-wise we'll start to see the info hit the web?

5:30am

An hour after Microsoft start the Halo 3 show. Could be a smart decision or it could turn against them after everybody has just come fresh from checking out the Chief. Killzone 2 is going to have to be pretty special to top that.

KillZone (Guerrilla) - Amazingly, given the incredibly underwhelming PS2 version, Killzone could well be the best-looking first-person shooter we have ever seen. Beginning with a descent on World War II-style landing craft - except flying versions - it's the next-generation of beach landings. Helghast rockets send the one next to yours into a skyscraper, while another is blown to smithereens behind you on landing, and troops all around trying to secure a bridge as a kind of beachhead are being pulverised by bullets. The detail on your weapon alone is enough to make Half-Life 2 look like a cartoon, but the most impressive thing is that it made yours truly, who hated Killzone, suddenly whack it to the top of his Most Wanted. Remember the awesome TV adverts? This looks better.
Both Microsoft and Sony have unveiled their hardware, explained the specifications, and shown us game footage. And, for all the talk of PS3 titles being pre-rendered, which seems to be one of the most mud-splattered points of the whole affair, we can comfortably say that there was a heck of a lot of stuff going on in real time at the Sony conference. You can't pause computer-generated pre-rendered imagery and rotate around the objects using a control pad.

What's more, it would be catastrophically moronic of Sony to fake that kind of presentation - and even if it had done, it will get found out in the end and get its backside kicked if that happens.

Note to self, ignore Eurogamer's coverage of E3.

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MK-1601

MK-1601

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An hour after Microsoft start the Halo 3 show. Could be a smart decision or it could turn against them after everybody has just come fresh from checking out the Chief. Killzone 2 is going to have to be pretty special to top that.

No-one's expecting Halo 3 to be a visual tour-de-force after the multiplayer test, surely? Bungie do have a flair for showmanship, though.

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Beertiger

Beertiger

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No-one's expecting Halo 3 to be a visual tour-de-force after the multiplayer test, surely? Bungie do have a flair for showmanship, though.

Oh god no not visually, I'm expecting them to do a level play through though like Cliffy B. did with Gears. It's the game mechanics of Halo that Killzone is going to have to go up against and depending on the presentation Bungie give, it could be hard work for Guerrilla. Killzone 2 should look better than Halo 3. If it'll look better than Gears of War is another thing entirely though.

Supposedly the single-player is a whole different kettle of fish graphically to the multiplayer. Could be true, could be MS spouting marketing shite. We'll know one way or the other in a few hours.

It could happen, the multiplayer could have been an updated Halo 2 engine to keep everything smooth online while they bust out the sex for online. Just look at the GRAW series to see that philosophy in motion. I really doubt it though. I mean for one they have to keep the art style or it wouldn't be Halo.

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Beertiger

Beertiger

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Nah keep the repetitive corridors, the repetitive enemies and the worlds most boring character and it'll still be Halo.

Repetitive corridors? I'm pretty sure I remember bombing around environments in a warthog rescuing marines or attacking a snow covered base from the air in a banshee. Man if only those areas were outside it would have been amazing, being stuck in a corridor in a banshee was fucking retarded. Like all buildings they should have been built out of clouds, kittens and rainbows, I mean have they never been a real building? Corridors just don't exist. Repetitive enemies? Fucking mario bros, it's only got like 6 different enemies or WWII shooters, all you ever kill are fucking nazis. Most boring character? I know I was outraged when I heard that the inside the armour was William fucking Hague.

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Eighthours

Eighthours

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What's more, it would be catastrophically moronic of Sony to fake that kind of presentation - and even if it had done, it will get found out in the end and get its backside kicked if that happens.

We were convinced of the truth of a lot of what they showed. Some of it was clearly teaser style trailing and guestimation, but a lot of it clearly was not. And in time you'll probably share that view. If you don't, or it becomes abundantly clear that we were all hoodwinked then we won't shy away from reflecting that on these pages too.

Yeah, that's the bit. We're kinda still waiting for the backlash from EG on that! Certainly harmed the site's reputation for a while.

By the way, I hope that someone has got MK-1601's previous Killzone posts all lined up for the rent-a-quote after the game is properly unveiled. He's probably still the only person alive who won't concede that the E3 2005 trailer wasn't running in realtime on a PS3.

Ouch, there's more:

From Rob (Fahey):

"PlayStation 3 is more powerful, more fully featured, more innovative and better supported than Xbox 360."

"We're not just talking about a console that's twice as powerful as Xbox 360 in simple, logical terms (and bear in mind that that's a far, far greater gap in power than existed between PS2 and Xbox); we're talking about a console with more functionality, with fewer corners cut and with a genuinely more impressive line-up of software."

"Sony's hardware, its software, and even its simple display of confidence in its own product have completely outclassed Microsoft today "

From Tom (Bramwell):

"Despite supporting virtually everything we could want, it[XBOX360] doesn't do it all out of the box and to a high enough standard. Having sat through Sony's exhausting and meticulously detailed conference in LA's Culver City this afternoon, I can tell you with some certainty that PlayStation 3 does these things"

"It[PS3] supports progressive scan up to 1080p - significantly better than the Xbox 360's top-end 1080 interlaced resolution - and can do it on two screens at once. It can do things graphically that PCs cannot do, let alone Xbox 360. And things that PCs won't be able to do at least until after the console launches next spring. Xbox 360 games look like high-end PC games; gorgeous, but like games."

"Equally thanks to its[PS3s] utterly comprehensive support of every conceivable format, form of media playback and more. The new IP camera will basically let you whack up live video streams wherever you are. It's compatible with everything: PS1 games, PS2 games, EyeToy, PSP (and, as Rob suggested to me earlier, you wouldn't bet against PS3 wirelessly streaming video to the PSP as a kind of remote video handset), Memory Stick, wireless networks, and so on. Xbox 360 does things like this, but it's "ready" to do most of them, rather than doing them out of the box."

By the way, I do think that the EG team are the best videogame writers out there. But they got it badly, tragically wrong on that occasion.

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Beertiger

Beertiger

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There's a larger high res version of the screen on IGN

killzone-2-20070710042144618.jpg

Well it's certainly got the same colour palette as the original.

By the way, I hope that someone has got MK-1601's previous Killzone posts all lined up for the rent-a-quote after the game is properly unveiled. He's probably still the only person alive who won't concede that the E3 2005 trailer wasn't running in realtime on a PS3.

While that trailer was clearly CG we're not that far off, hell watching it again games like Gears of War puts some of it to shame in terms of graphics. Still a long way off from animation that smooth though.

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Andy_Why

Andy_Why

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I think Eurogamer forget that all their old articles can still be accessed by everyone, as they've seemingly done some serious revisionism on their Sony stance. In a recent news piece they talked about people coming down hard on them for their anti-Sony comments. Sorry guys? When did that happen? Jumped on any bandwagon's recently?

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MK-1601

MK-1601

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By the way, I hope that someone has got MK-1601's previous Killzone posts all lined up for the rent-a-quote after the game is properly unveiled. He's probably still the only person alive who won't concede that the E3 2005 trailer wasn't running in realtime on a PS3.

I've never claimed it wasn't prerendered. I just preferred to believe the evidence of the company that worked on it (Realtime UK), when it eventually came to light, over invented rumours and forged emails in the interim.

But good invented memories there!

People did claim in that infamous thread that the trailer was "better than Pixar" and we wouldn't see realtime graphics that good "for ten years". :lol: Gears of War and COD4 must be hallucinations then. :D

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squirtle

squirtle

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I've never claimed it wasn't prerendered. I just preferred to believe the evidence of the company that worked on it (Realtime UK), when it eventually came to light, over invented rumours and forged emails in the interim.

But good invented memories there!

People did claim in that infamous thread that the trailer was "better than Pixar" and we wouldn't see realtime graphics that good "for ten years". :lol: Gears of War and COD4 must be hallucinations then. :D

Are you here all week? I might have a booking for you at my local comedy club.

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MK-1601

MK-1601

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Someone please link to some of his posts in that thread. :lol:

Please post the reply that I gave to Neuromancer about how a demo can be scripted to show off the best bits of a game in progress, taken completely out of context, like you usually do. :D

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Simmy

Simmy

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Why is their first screenshot right up against a featureless wall like that?

That said, the NPC looks pretty competent.

What's with that dynamic light? Is it supposed to be a flare?

I've got to ask the same question... Is this an official screenshot??

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Beertiger

Beertiger

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I've got to ask the same question... Is this an official screenshot??

Yes it's the first screen Sony have officially released. I would also like to take this chance to retract my statement about Killzone 2 single player looking better than Halo 3 single player. If the character models are anything to go buy then Halo is going to be a lot more detailed.

killzone-2-20070710042144618.jpg

halo-3-20070705005846973.jpg

but then Killzone 2 could be a while off yet. I mean in the first image of the Chief released, the one where he was standing against a wall, didn't have as detailed a character as the one above. There's always time for another level of polish.

Or there going to announce that the screenshot is from the next Killzone on PSP and blow us away with the PS3 game.

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Eighthours

Eighthours

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Ok, my "invented memories" are here. It's clear from these that MK-1601 didn't believe it was realtime at all.

Part One:

I've no doubt it's rendered on the fly but at the same time there's no way it's in-game footage. Far too busy and with too many animations. It'd take a million years to make a game like that.

It's not that hard to believe, is it?

People in this thread have clearly decided what they want to believe, regardless of how feasible the content of the videos actually is. Because Sony are crafty, moustache-twirling villains, it's obvious that a dozen independently-produced demo videos are all frauds.

What's hard to accept about the Killzone video? Technically it doesn't ask us to swallow anything improbable. Yes, it's script-tastic, but hey, so are most of the shooters on the market now (not to mention the Halo 2 demo vid). So what exactly is the flaw?

I doubt we'll be playing games that look/play/act like that within the next decade. Sony are being extremely dishonest with us all, moreso than I've ever seen before from a games company.

:lol: Christ, you're in for a shock later this year then.

Yes, I must admit I was quite taken aback at just how blinkered their (Eurogamer's)reports have been. Gushing over everything Sony gave them.

Doesn't seem particularly out of the ordinary.

(Fanboyism? It's their job to report the show, not make excuses for Microsoft's utterly upstaged launch*.)

*note launch, not console. It was common knowledge that the PS3's specs and support would be better before the launch.

But it isn't. Like I said, games that look and play like are a decade away. It takes *DAYS* to render out a few seconds of something like 'Finding Nemo'. You won't have something that generates visuals that are Pixar quality in real time on a consumer machine.

We've been here before. Some people have some incredibly lofty ideas about what this generation of software is going to look like.

You do realise your approximations of what is 'possible' are based on five year old hardware? It's quite amusing.

Was the Unreal 3.0 demo 'prerendered' too?

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Eighthours

Eighthours

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Part Two now:

You do realise your approximations of what is 'possible' are based on five year old hardware? It's quite amusing.

I'll tell you what is "quite amusing": Watching you back-track once the PS3 games *actually* come out, and look absolutely nothing like what you've foolishly suckered in to believing.

I've got my big "told you so!" sticker ready and waiting to slap onto your forehead.

You're the one who seems convinced a blatantly obvious pre-render is real-time footage running on prototype PS3 hardware.

I'd suggest you're the one without a clue.

Again, what in the video could not be done in real time? Come on, just one thing. Anyone?

Then why the conspiracy theories? Is it really that galling to think that Sony, now for the first time in years presented with robust competition, might not have scrimped on their graphics spec?

I'm looking at the vid again now, trying to find anything that hasn't been signposted for months on the Unreal tech site or in current gen games. Apart from the cheesy 'in engine cutscene'-ness of the dropship approach (think Call of Duty's vehicle rides) I can't see anything. Lots of particles, lots of cloth, lots of ragdolling. If we could see thousands of people fighting at that level of detail, or something really blatant, I'd understand the scepticism (I mean, from a purely technical perspective, rather than judged on how shifty Sony can be).

Exactly. The character models are just fractionally above HL2 quality, just bumpmapped and better lit. Crazy Sony witchcraft!
Its CGI designed to look like a game..... sheesh, thats what the whole fuss is about.

No, it isn't.

And as Mark Rein's comments suggest (as he is only speculating, remember) it's certainly not pre-rendered.

This video has been remarkably effective in drawing out armchair muppets who know jackfuck about graphics tech, and have, to a man and over nine pages now, given not one piece of evidence or coherent theory as to why this video could not be achieved on the PS3.

The PS3 being, if it has escaped anyone's attention, a platform with a CPU and a GPU significantly in advance of anything currently on the market. I don't think this has sunk in among some people. nVidia aren't a bunch of garage hobbyists, they're the largest graphics hardware company on Earth, tasked with providing a chip that's a generational leap ahead of their current offerings. The stakes are a mite higher than when they did the Xbox1 GPU (and they did an ok job of that, I recall).

Part Three:

It's choreographed because it's a demo, you div. They've picked and massaged exactly what they want to show, much as happens in the demo of any game at a conference. (As I mentioned earlier, remember the first Halo 2 showing?)

As for the actual sequence of events, that's no more choreographed than sequences in Medal of Honour, Call of Duty or (fresh in my memory) Resident Evil 4's minecart bit. It's someone playing through a tightly scripted sequence showily. Anyone who's played a heavily scripted FPS knows how easy it is to usher the player to their spot at any given moment (and if you've played HL1 or 2, you'll see how sophisticated techniques for 'playing out' a scene around the player have become).

I don't care about this, and haven't at any point in this thread, because that's how demos work. De-mon-stra-tion. It's why the attract sequences of games don't generally have a character running into a wall for ten minutes.

"Aside from the fact that there's no physical way in hell that you'll get graphics or physics to render in real time at that effectiveness on any machine that I know of."

Gee, maybe that's because it's running on a machine you don't know of? For the hundredth time, what is there in the footage that is such a computational nightmare that it can't be done? Have you played ANY game with recent Havok or Meqon physics, or a reasonably ambitious character animation system? Are all the pics on the Unreal tech site elaborate fakes? Is it all a scam, and they'll never use it in a real game, just as no-one would ever use the Quake engine because it doesn't run well on a 486?

I despair, I really do.

Ok, that takes us up to just after page 10 of a 26 page thread.

Good "invented memories", indeed! :lol:

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MK-1601

MK-1601

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Wow, you've proved something there.

Oh, actually you've just quoted a load of people who spent a whole thread trying to shout down anyone who disagreed that graphics had 'peaked' with the last generation of consoles. :lol:

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Eighthours

Eighthours

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Wow, you've proved something there.

Oh, actually you've just quoted a load of people who spent a whole thread trying to shout down anyone who disagreed that graphics had 'peaked' with the last generation of consoles. :lol:

Jumbojet.jpeg.

Yes, received opinion and closed-mindedness is certainly a better way to make decisions than exercising your own judgement.
Jan Bart:

Yeah, it's basically a representation of the look and feel of the game we're trying to make.

Come on, give it up. :D

Hmm, much like 3DMark01 contained a real-time (in-engine) representation of Max Payne, that made everyone's jaws drop at the time but looked pretty meh about a year later?

I'm not defending the trend to use demos to deceive the public, I'm simply pointing out that it's not acceptable to make claims about people's work without tangible evidence. Sony haven't said one way or another what was real-time and what was prerendered in their showreel (bad). A couple of people in this thread have stated as fact that the KZ sequence was prerendered based on zero evidence (worse).

And to sum this all up:

I pray that someone saves this topic, so in a couple of years time we can all have a fucking good laugh at you.
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Beertiger

Beertiger

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Wow, you've proved something there.

Oh, actually you've just quoted a load of people who spent a whole thread trying to shout down anyone who disagreed that graphics had 'peaked' with the last generation of consoles. :lol:

it's certainly not pre-rendered.

map.gif

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