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3 hours ago, K said:

To be fair, I think Miller has calmed down a bit recently and walked back some of his more right-wing views. He seems to be implying he went through a pretty rough patch mentally in the early 2010s.

 

That said, he's always been pretty right wing. The first Give Me Liberty comic was politically fairly ambiguous and quite complex, but the sequels are 2D Ayn Rand fantasies. But he seems to have toned down the hatred a bit at least.

 

 

Yeah he went off the deep end after 9/11, it was thanks Neal he's gotten back into a better state.  Miller I've heard had to deal with some serious health issues  and then throw in some depression and heavy drinking. He had significant medical debt, which is why they put his name on the "master race" project to help him out.

 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2018/apr/27/frank-miller-xerxes-cursed-sin-city-the-dark-knight-returns

 

 

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I love the fact that Neal 'hollow earth' Adams made someone less crazy

 

 

 

There's literally been one movie that actually captures the feel of comics where you punch a guy with big green mits that go chock and it's the Spiderverse

 

 

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46 minutes ago, Mr Combo Breaker said:

I love the fact that Neal 'hollow earth' Adams made someone less crazy

 

 

 

There's literally been one movie that actually captures the feel of comics where you punch a guy with big green mits that go chock and it's the Spiderverse

 

 

Yeah another great storyteller artist but I hear he's an egotistical dick as well at cons. 

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You're wrong about Killing Joke. up to the that point Joker was just a comedy villain. All silly pranks and water flowers. The character hadn't moved far from that portrayed by Cesar Romero. The killing joke turned up and suddenly there was a proper back story to the joker and real threat.

 

Sure he got all twisted up in the post hype, until you get the fucking awful Leto take on the character. But Killing joke is brilliant, even if Bolland hated the colourisation.

 

 

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26 minutes ago, Sidewaysbob said:

You're wrong about Killing Joke. up to the that point Joker was just a comedy villain. All silly pranks and water flowers. The character hadn't moved far from that portrayed by Cesar Romero. The killing joke turned up and suddenly there was a proper back story to the joker and real threat.

 

Sure he got all twisted up in the post hype, until you get the fucking awful Leto take on the character. But Killing joke is brilliant, even if Bolland hated the colourisation.

 

 

The story ‘The Joker’s five way Revenge’ by Denny O’Neil and Neal Adams was actually the first time the character was portrayed the way he is today, and that was published over ten years before The Killing Joke.

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I think people are kind of desensitized to it because it's been so lauded for so long.. It's a great story for how it juxtaposes Bats and Joker and shows how they're actually these two, mirrored, inexorable parts of each other. It's an important story for the psychology of its characters and was influential, alongside other books like Dark Knight Returns, in moving the stories in a darker direction.

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16 hours ago, Peter St John said:

I’m sticking to my guns on this one - both it and The Killing Joke had terrible lasting influence in the superhero world and we’d be better off with neither of them

 

I call things like this Paul Weller's Haircuts. Taken in isolation, they are bold and interesting, but so many of the things influenced by them are truly awful. 

 

Spoiler

image.png.4d89dc041df3bc0d6e21a738a341105a.png

 

FWIW, I think DKR and KJ are both great, and so is All Star Superman.

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9 hours ago, Talvalin said:

Death of the author and all that. Even if Moore wishes he'd never written The Killing Joke, he did and it's a masterpiece.

 

I agree with Kensei here. Year One and The Dark Knight Returns are both seminal and will remain two of the top Batman stories of all time. The fact that everyone decided to take the mood of those stories and go full-on grimdark with them* cannot be blamed on Miller (nor Moore for that matter). I would say that Marvel and DC's editors hold all the responsibility in this area. They could have controlled what happened, but looked at the success of Year One, tDKR and The Killing Joke and decided they wanted more of that.

 

All-Star Superman is great regardless of the above, so I'm glad we all agree on that. :)

 

* A problem that persists to this day with female characters still getting fridged/raped on a regular basis to provide manpain for superheroes

 

The Barbara Gordon stuff in The Killing Joke is the part that's really a bit iffy and I believe that's what Moore really regrets. When they made the awful animated film of it they somehow made it worse by making her shag Batman and being lovesick for him before getting shot.

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2 hours ago, SaintAnselm said:

The story ‘The Joker’s five way Revenge’ by Denny O’Neil and Neal Adams was actually the first time the character was portrayed the way he is today, and that was published over ten years before The Killing Joke.

Spot on. 

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You can not enjoy the killing joke anymore cos of it's rather unpleasant treatment of Babs, Ive never even watched the animated version after hearing how badly they handled it.

 

But you cannot take anything away from the genius that is Brian Bollands art in that book. 

 

Or his art generally. 

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At some point or other along the way we wouldn't have had the Arkham games without Millar, and we all collectively wouldn't be The Batman.

 

 

He probably deserved better.

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19 hours ago, yakumo said:

 

I think people are kind of desensitized to it because it's been so lauded for so long.. It's a great story for how it juxtaposes Bats and Joker and shows how they're actually these two, mirrored, inexorable parts of each other. It's an important story for the psychology of its characters and was influential, alongside other books like Dark Knight Returns, in moving the stories in a darker direction.

 

Whereas Moore, who wrote it, now thinks it was a pretty trite thing to point out, and feels it set comics in a bad direction.

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18 hours ago, Harsin said:

 

The Barbara Gordon stuff in The Killing Joke is the part that's really a bit iffy and I believe that's what Moore really regrets. When they made the awful animated film of it they somehow made it worse by making her shag Batman and being lovesick for him before getting shot.

 

That was a fucking disgrace.

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59 minutes ago, Festoon said:

 

Whereas Moore, who wrote it, now thinks it was a pretty trite thing to point out, and feels it set comics in a bad direction.

It's subjective if it matters to you, but what the creator thinks of his/her work has never mattered to me in the past. There are so many writers in history who hated their own work. Kafka wanted a friend to burn his manuscripts, for instance. I try to let the work stand on its own merit.

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5 minutes ago, yakumo said:

It's subjective if it matters to you, but what the creator thinks of his/her work has never mattered to me in the past. There are so many writers in history who hated their own work. Kafka wanted a friend to burn his manuscripts, for instance. I try to let the work stand on its own merit.

 

Paul Dukas, the guy who wrote The Sorcerors Apprentice orchestral piece, suceeded, and burnt most of his work. A real shame.

 

I think it's useful getting a creator's reflection on their work, even if I don't agree with it.

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2 minutes ago, Festoon said:

 

Paul Dukas, the guy who wrote The Sorcerors Apprentice orchestral piece, suceeded, and burnt most of his work. A real shame.

 

I think it's useful getting a creator's reflection on their work, even if I don't agree with it.

I understand where you're coming from, TKJ isn't high in my list of favourite Batman but I feel like Miller and Moore were writing these fantastic stories that spoke of the day, and they let them go. It was time for something to change, plus the 1980s not being the brightest of decades informed the story tellers reflecting the zeitgeist of that era.

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18 hours ago, cassidy said:

You can not enjoy the killing joke anymore cos of it's rather unpleasant treatment of Babs, Ive never even watched the animated version after hearing how badly they handled it.

 

But you cannot take anything away from the genius that is Brian Bollands art in that book. 

 

Or his art generally. 

 

"Fridging" as a trope is a problem. That does not mean that every single story that could fall under that category is a problem. 

 

Family, friends or loved ones being hurt to provide motivation is a story device that goes back to literally before stories were written down. 

 

Never seen the animated version. But the comic is a wholistic piece of work that remains very good. 

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If anyone feels like The Killing Joke is problematic with Babs, then you need to read Moore's Neonomicon published in 2012 which I found uncomfortable.

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13 minutes ago, kensei said:

 

"Fridging" as a trope is a problem. That does not mean that every single story that could fall under that category is a problem. 

 

Family, friends or loved ones being hurt to provide motivation is a story device that goes back to literally before stories were written down. 

 

Never seen the animated version. But the comic is a wholistic piece of work that remains very good. 

Yes I agree and do own Killing Joke, Absolute Dark Knight, Batman Year one and still enjoy them. 

 

I also love Morrisons run, Dini's run, Snyder and Capullo's isn't bad either. 

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33 minutes ago, yakumo said:

If anyone feels like The Killing Joke is problematic with Babs, then you need to read Moore's Neonomicon published in 2012 which I found uncomfortable.

 

It's a bit of a repeating theme in Moore's work. Not as bad as Millar, but then, who is? ;)

 

 

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I think the extra vertical space in the frame will be useful in all those slow motion shots of someone doing a jumping attack while lightning and/or fire goes off around them.

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1 hour ago, probotector said:

Not sure about the 4:3 aspect ratio.

 

Snyder is usually awesome at setting epic scenes and widescreen is part of that. 

This is sarcasm right? 

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54 minutes ago, Alex W. said:

I think the extra vertical space in the frame will be useful in all those slow motion shots of someone doing a jumping attack while lightning and/or fire goes off around them.

 

I.e. 90% of the shots.

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8 hours ago, probotector said:

Not sure about the 4:3 aspect ratio.

 

Snyder is usually awesome at setting epic scenes and widescreen is part of that. 

It is Snyder. We are lucky he hasn’t gone full watchmen and framed it all as 3:4.

 

(perhaps his vision for justice league is that people watch it on an iPad, so he’s framing for fullscreen on that)

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Do you think that Zack Snyder does something cool, like spam-dunking a book about editing in to the bin, and he gets disappointed that the whole thing happened at one speed?

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