Fallout 3 - Official Thread

[Joyrex-J9]

I love the fact that this game is making people post with unashamed passion for it.

Great post Gorf King.

Yes, it's refreshing to see so much love on 'muk. Both your post yesterday and Gorf King's are great examples.

I was expecting the usual undercurrent of snide remarks and hole picking that accompanies so many games these days.

[Joyrex-J9]

Ohh remembered what I was going to ask...

Hacking terminals - I'm really shit at it, proper word-spaz shit.

Is there anyway to go back to a locked terminal and try again? I mean by failing the hack attempt I've obviously shut off some part of the game forever, which irks me. There have been a couple of terminals near doors which I've failed to hack but then I could lockpick the door anyway. Making me wonder what is the point of the terminal?

Also any general tips on the hacking "mini game" would be appreciated

[jcee]

You can obtain a perk that allows you to retry failed hack attempts.

As for the dual lock / station doors, it's clearly a concious design decision to increase the chance that you will be able to access rooms / areas of more importance than the 'one-lock' doors.

[Wroth]

I'd normally tell you myself, but I'm linking this just because it explains it really well.

I'd hacked 60 or so computers before reading this and discovering the bracket trick for the first time.

[Vaya.]

Also any general tips on the hacking "mini game" would be appreciated

• if you're running out of guesses exit and re-enter to get all of your tries back
  
• if you select a word ending in 'ing' and it tells you that there is less than 3 letters correct, it can't be an 'ing' word
  
• selecting a set of brackets with random symbols inside can help in lots of different ways
  

[Ste Pickford]

You can do it without using the brackets, but they make it a bit easier.

They seem to randomly either remove a dud or replenish your allowance (I've not spotted a rule that says they'll do one or the other yet), so I always pick a random word to start with, then go through and use the brackets to remove all the duds, and if one replenishes my allowance it's not been wasted because I'm down to three tries.

Then I do the character puzzle with the reduced list of words to choose from.

[Concept]

Yes, it's refreshing to see so much love on 'muk. Both your post yesterday and Gorf King's are great examples.

I was expecting the usual undercurrent of snide remarks and hole picking that accompanies so many games these days.

Depends where you go. I still see a lot of Bethesda hatred thrown about by seemingly bitter CRPG players who pour scorn on any Western RPG that attempts to become accessible and sell to more than 100,000 people. It isn't a mindset I understand very well, as it's not as though there's an abundance of WRPGs these days compared to the mid-to-late ninties (you'd think getting more people interested in the genre would be a good thing).

I always get the sense there's a real elitism from some people who look down on people who enjoy the likes of Oblivion, Mass Effect or Fallout 3. The more people which get interested in the market, the more chance there's going to be a modern day equivalent of a Planescape Torment again.

I'm a relative newcomer to the WRPG genre so these last three or four years have been a complete eye opener as to what I've been missing.

[TheSlugFormerlyKnownAsNap]

Frankly I don't understand 'elite RPG'players anyway. For me RPG, from its humble beginnings as paper and dice game right up to today's extravaganza's has been about 'simulating' an adventure and character development rather than stat-gazing and numbercrunching. It seems the whole spreadsheet stuff struck a chord with some OBD-ridden nerds though, and they focus rather on that than on the cool stuff which is the exploring, combat and adventure. I always seen the cogs and bolts of RPG's as a means to build the adventure around rather than a goal in itself.

[Concept]

But there's a lot more to the differences. I'll admit I didn't play Oblivion all that much, but what I did play of it didn't endear me to the combat at all: I just found it tiresome. The mixture of FPS and the numbers-driven VATS was, on the other hand, massively enjoyable, both tactical and cinematic, and a real stroke of genius. I'm still enjoying the unexpected effects that you get in the slo-mo variety. It's just utterly compelling, almost every fight.

I absolutely agree with that. The combat does generally feel more satisfying than in Oblivion, and although neither VATS or real-time work amazingly well on their own, in conjunction I find they hit a right note which Mass Effect's combat failed to reach. The main problem I have with it though is that the head shot is too much of a win area. I would have liked to have seen more enemies where you had to take out various body parts to gain a better upperhand.

Another difference is that Fallout 3 gives a real sense of freedom which is at the same time married to a coherence in the game world. Again, I didn't play Oblivion all that much before quitting, but I never got that sense that I was truly free to do almost anything I wanted whilst at the same time feeling that my behaviour and actions might have consequences elsewhere. And the characters and situations in Fallout were ones I could understand and sometimes empathise with. The era is distant yet familiar. The themes seem somehow current. And it has, quite importantly, BIG FUCKOFF GUNS in it. I really don't think I can overstate that enough.

The problem I had with Oblivion is that it was too easy to become swamped. Even after putting over 200 hours into the game I had something like a hundred quest lines still open (there are about 300 in comparison to Fallout's 30). I think why Fallout 3 doesn't end up feeling barren or devoid of things to do as you might expect is because Bethesda have cleverly mixed things up - you'll often have ten or fifteen different stages to quests which would have otherwise been entire missions in Oblivion. That and there are many unmarked search and find quests that are related to gaining money or new gear. The thing which particularly impresses me are the beaten-off-the-track locations which could so easily have been 'marked' in the Pip-boy by a line or two from a character to send you on a search mission. But essentially what Bethesda say is fuck that and let you discover these places on your own and allow you to make up your own quest lines when you go for a wander.

It's subtle and one of the many reasons why I find stumbling off the beaten track more rewarding (the lines are more convicingly blurred between quests overlapping). For example you might read a note about a location left on one of the terminals or hear someone mention one out in the wastes. Eventually you may go to this new place, and find some new loot or some iconography in the environment which tells a story the further you delve in. After you've explored that area chances are you'll find another terminal which hints another location (and so on and so on).

In Oblivion I always felt somewhat disconnected from the world map and the ruins which were littered about, and when you did go to one there wasn't any context for why it was there. In Fallout 3 though chances are that numerous objectives will overlap at the same point or you'll end up deciding your own point As and Bs as to where you think a particular period of "adventuring" begins.

[Joyrex-J9]

Frankly I don't understand 'elite RPG'players anyway. For me RPG, from its humble beginnings as paper and dice game right up to today's extravaganza's has been about 'simulating' an adventure and character development rather than stat-gazing and numbercrunching. It seems the whole spreadsheet stuff struck a chord with some OBD-ridden nerds though, and they focus rather on that than on the cool stuff which is the exploring, combat and adventure. I always seen the cogs and bolts of RPG's as a means to build the adventure around rather than a goal in itself.

Spot on...

I was doing some pen and paper RPG-ing a few months back, and the other 4 players forgot their character sheets!

Didn't matter at all! We more of less improvised the whole session, and still had a great time and a great adventure without worrying about all the numbers and the minuscule detail

That to me what any RPG is about (whether it be a videogame or old school nerdy pen and paper variety)

[Concept]

Frankly I don't understand 'elite RPG'players anyway. For me RPG, from its humble beginnings as paper and dice game right up to today's extravaganza's has been about 'simulating' an adventure and character development rather than stat-gazing and numbercrunching. It seems the whole spreadsheet stuff struck a chord with some OBD-ridden nerds though, and they focus rather on that than on the cool stuff which is the exploring, combat and adventure. I always seen the cogs and bolts of RPG's as a means to build the adventure around rather than a goal in itself.

I agree in principle. I'm not knocking all criticism against recent modern day RPGs - I just think the more people who are drawn into WRPGs the more you're going to find the market is able to sustain offbeat titles that aren't fan-made or very small. I can certainly understand the beef that some people have with the game in that it allows you to level up too many aspects of your character so that your early choices aren't as consequential as they might first appear. But that's a necessary evil to get this kind of title into as many hands as possible. Where Fallout 3 excels for me is in the richness of its exploration and the sense of adventure (as many of you have noted).

When I think back to RPGs I was playing on console four or five years ago compared to this, they seem so claustrophobic and linear by comparison. The act of playing a role in Fallout 3 is conveyed in how you interact with people, what gear you equip, the weapons and where you go as much as it is keeping track of whats stats to correctly pick for every level.

[Uzi]

I said this a while back when we were comparing Oblivion to Fallout. I believe it even more now after 90 hours. It's head and shoulders above Oblivion simply because the world that's been created is so much more connected than anything I've ever played.

This on first appearance (if you see videos of talking to people- looking at items, stealing them etc) it's very similar to Oblivion. But it has a completely and entirely different atmosphere.

Oblivion was very carefree and sort of manic- the world because of the levelling up didn't feel very consistent and the caves were really sort of copy paste (I loved oblivion despite these flaws)- the fun bit was the side quests and just taking it all in. Fallout feels like a much more consistent world and journey.

You enter the world with fuck all almost and you'll genuinely explore dangerous areas unequipped well enough and shit yourself- it feels like proper survival at first. You need to gather yourself and some supplies and make the best of you against the world and it's creatures and people. Once you do, you feel like you're strong enough of an explorer to explore and the world begins to slowly unravel itself to be this whole massive consistent place. The quests have sometimes entirely different outcomes and feels depending on what you do (if you look at some on fallout wiki they have as much as 10 different ways to do some of them depends on past or present actions)

I'd say Oblivion was sort of a butlins or center parcs in comparison- sunny, able to more or less roam freely and engage yourself in lots of different activities which don't tie in with the big picture. It didn't feel like a naturally formed location, but more of a theme park cobbled together for entertainment

Fallout is like entering a foreign country where you've lost your baggage at the airport, barely anyone knows who the fuck you are or how to help you. It's a real growing feeling once you walk around the world with some sense of confidence and direction after a little while. It's a far more "full" and "wholesome" world than Cyrodil- everywhere seems to have some real purpose. It really feels like a proper journey and that's why its my personal GOTY

[FeedMeVibration]

It's just a fabulous, fabulous experience.

I've always had no hesitation in naming Deus Ex my favourite ever experience in gaming, but now I'm not so sure. Fallout 3 has drawn me in like nothing since. It's a real pleasure.

[Sancho]

Think I've got a glitch on "You've Gotta Shoot Them In The Head" quest. I killed all the targets and returned all the keys to Crowley, but the quest won't complete. All the quest boxes are filled in. When I speak to him, it just gives me the option to ask about Underworld or continue my search. Has anybody else had this problem?

[Rudi von Starnberg]

That's technically not the end of the quest. Crowley is going to

go somewhere with the keys...

[Sancho]

That's technically not the end of the quest. Crowley is going to

go somewhere with the keys...

Whenever I speak to him there's no mention of doing anything else, just the two options I mentioned above.

[Concept]

Fallout is like entering a foreign country where you've lost your baggage at the airport, barely anyone knows who the fuck you are or how to help you. It's a real growing feeling once you walk around the world with some sense of confidence and direction after a little while. It's a far more "full" and "wholesome" world than Cyrodil- everywhere seems to have some real purpose. It really feels like a proper journey and that's why its my personal GOTY

Oddly enough, now you mention that it kind of reminds me of the beginning of Shenmue II where you're thrown into the deep end and at first you're just trying to find your feet. Everything is similar but oh-so-slightly off-kilter. I think it works better than in Oblivion because you have a one-up on your characters starting point.

You kind of know what's out there but you're not expected to know how society functions and most of the fun in exploring is just seeing what's over the next plot of land or how the next settlement differs from the next. Whereas in Oblivion there's this big lush paradise that's supposed to be full of life but often feels surprisingly empty. You're expected to automatically assimilate yourself into this fantasy template where it's hard to distinguish one city from the next. Many of that game's failings are simply better concealed in Fallout 3's setting.

I know that when I think of Little Lamplight, Paradise Falls, Rivet City, Big Town, Underworld and the like, they all seem far more distinct.

[Rudi von Starnberg]

In Oblivion, also, there are so many settlements and you tend to jetset from one to the other (and you can fast travel to them from the very beginning if you're that way inclined!). In Fallout 3, even with fast travel each journey feels like a real journey or a real accomplishment having got there, and you spend more time in the few settlements you do come across.

[Ste Pickford]

In Oblivion there were tons of books to read, but they were all full of po-faced fantasy nonsense, so I couldn't bear to read through any of the 'lore', and just skipped through to the end of any books that gave me skill updates.

In Fallout 3 I'm hungrily devouring every scrap of information I find on notes and computer terminals, and piecing the history of the world together myself. There was probably a similar amount of work put in to the writing and back story in both games, but in Oblivion it was of no interest to me at all whereas in this game it's a really important part of the experience.

[Lasers are brilliant]

I think it's quite important to maintain some sense of perspective with Fallout 3. Alluring as it all is, it's got some big holes in it.

Despite putting in nearly 100 hours, I can't help but miss stuff that was present in Oblivion. There's nothing like the Dark Brotherhood, or the Thieve's Guild, both of which could have easily been translated into the Fallout universe. Finger and ear collecting, or the Moriarty / Slaver quests don't quite match up. I personally hate the soundtrack - it makes zero sense that the only surviving music would be a handful of 30s/40s songs. The setting is so removed from the reality of what DC would look like after a nuclear war, it doesn't really hold up under examination. The level cap is a huge issue for me, as is the stark lack of weapon variations, or the implausibillity of the stealth system (shotgun blasts in underground tunnels not bothering anyone in earshot as long as I'm crouching? WTF). Then there's the lack of specialisation - there's not much variation in the type of character you can be, as the game would rather you were an all-rounder than a specialist and on top of that, there's precious little equipment for specific player types. No silenced sniping weapons, for example.

The literal and moral freedom of the world is shattered by the main storyline, which has to make seriously implausible concessions to allow you through it - even though I'm the evilest fucker in the wasteland, who wasted all the killable NPCs in every town, my Dad apparently could not give a fuck, ignoring my epic body-devouring stats in favour of, presumably, the good karma I got for dumping a load of rings in the church (which I then massacred immediately afterwards). I couldn't give a fuck about the main quest, but have to do it to get access to the endgame factions. Even Oblivion was more open than that. It's also a bit compromised by being a Fallout licence - having to be set after the other Fallouts again damages any sense of plausibility - the freely-available power, ammo dumps and juicy items everywhere - all make very little sense in the historial picture we're given. To be honest, I think it would have been better as a 'spiritual' sequel to Fallout and taken its own path - even something like Oblivion taken to a futuristic, post-apocalyptic extreme would have been a better foundation for this type of game.

But yeah, it's a good 9/10 for me, but 10/10s for this are as misguided as 10/10s for Bioshock or GTA IV.

[Concept]

I haven't played Fallout 1 or 2, but some fans make them sound like they were ultra-realistic post armageddon simulators with no 'gamey' elements to them. Weren't there ammo dumps or items to be found at regular intervals? As for the 'realism' aspect - after watching Threads for the first time a few days ago (thanks for giving me nightmares Consolevania) it did initially alter my view of Fallout 3. Then I remembered that it's supposed to be tongue in cheek and black comedy. That doesn't forgive the wooden acting, but it did make me more forgiving that there are buildings still around. If it was more realistic then the landscape simply wouldn't be very interesting to explore.

[And]

Apologies if this has been asked before but:

My game has started loading really slowly, whenever I enter or exit an area, or fast travel it loads normally with the round loading symbol and / or the vault slides in the background but then goes to a black screen for anywhere up to 30 seconds at a time. Its getting quite vexing

Also if I sleep or wait, after pressing A it will then take 10 -20 seconds to start the countdown.

Has anyone else experienced this ? Any ideas how to fix it?

I am playing on a 360 and am about 30 hours in.

Thanks

[JPickford]

. The setting is so removed from the reality of what DC would look like after a nuclear war, it doesn't really hold up under examination.

In what way? Surely there could be any number of outcomes of a nuclear war?

[Rudi von Starnberg]

I haven't played Fallout 1 or 2, but some fans make them sound like they were ultra-realistic post armageddon simulators with no 'gamey' elements to them. Weren't there ammo dumps or items to be found at regular intervals? As for the 'realism' aspect - after watching Threads for the first time a few days ago (thanks for giving me nightmares Consolevania) it did initially alter my view of Fallout 3. Then I remembered that it's supposed to be tongue in cheek and black comedy. That doesn't forgive the wooden acting, but it did make me more forgiving that there are buildings still around. If it was more realistic then the landscape simply wouldn't be very interesting to explore.

Fallout 1 and 2 were RPGs in which you had to buy all your ammo or scavenge it off enemies you encountered (mostly in random encounters). The Wasteland was technically much larger but you essentially fast travelled ever, sometimes going to a random square of it in the 'actual' world to fight a random encounter. It was a lot more lifeless than Fallout 3, for me. Didn't get much atmosphere at all from it.

They were more Wild-West-but-nuclear than Fallout 3 is, and you still ended up with a massive surplus of ammo and supplies by the time you reached the end of the game. Exploration wasn't really the name of the game, but towns were more populated and stuff.

John: I think what he means is that there are far too many buildings left standing or more or less intact considering the amount of bombs that were supposed to have fallen on the area. The White House is gone because of a 'direct hit' but the stuff around it is still recognisable. This doesn't bother me, though. It's so convincingly ruined that I can just go "yeah airburst nukes" and my suspension of disbelief continues floating up high.

[Gloomy Andy]

I can't remember where I read it but I'm sure someone somewhere mentioned that Fallout 3 is the best thing ever if you hadn't played the other Fallout games.

If you had however then your experience and opinions were more likely to be slightly more muted.

I'm really looking to playing Fallout 3 and have enjoyed the gushing praise it's been getting but it's nice a refreshing to see a post like Lasers above.

[Concept]

Fallout 1 and 2 were RPGs in which you had to buy all your ammo or scavenge it off enemies you encountered (mostly in random encounters). The Wasteland was technically much larger but you essentially fast travelled ever, sometimes going to a random square of it in the 'actual' world to fight a random encounter. It was a lot more lifeless than Fallout 3, for me. Didn't get much atmosphere at all from it.

They were more Wild-West-but-nuclear than Fallout 3 is, and you still ended up with a massive surplus of ammo and supplies by the time you reached the end of the game. Exploration wasn't really the name of the game, but towns were more populated and stuff.

John: I think what he means is that there are far too many buildings left standing or more or less intact considering the amount of bombs that were supposed to have fallen on the area. The White House is gone because of a 'direct hit' but the stuff around it is still recognisable. This doesn't bother me, though. It's so convincingly ruined that I can just go "yeah airburst nukes" and my suspension of disbelief continues floating up high.

That sounds really good. I wonder if Interplay will issue a re-release of both games considering Fallout 3's current popularity. I like the idea of it feeling Western-based.

As for the devastation in Fallout 3. It comes across as WWII-esque when I think back to old bombing pictures from that period. I can see how some might have a problem with that considering the game explicitly makes it clear Washington was hit with a nuke, but the setting, music and the destruction match up to me.

[Rudi von Starnberg]

They're on Good Old Games to download, DRM-free.

Speaking as someone who only played them recently, I'd recommend Fallout 2 but steer clear of the Restoration Project, it guts the game and makes it far too hardcore.

[JPickford]

That sounds really good. I wonder if Interplay will issue a re-release of both games considering Fallout 3's current popularity. I like the idea of it feeling Western-based.

As for the devastation in Fallout 3. It comes across as WWII-esque when I think back to old bombing pictures from that period. I can see how some might have a problem with that considering the game explicitly makes it clear Washington was hit with a nuke, but the setting, music and the destruction match up to me.

Fallout 3 doesn't look too far from this:

[peeveen]

I got a schematic last night that needs a deathclaw hand (or claw or something), but I don't think I've run across one in the game yet.

Kill a deathclaw, search the corpse. There are several around Old Olney I think.

[Uzi]

Fallout 3 doesn't look too far from this:

That's amazing. If I squint I can almost see raiders and a radscorp