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evilwallpaper

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roadkill

roadkill

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The OMAP3 has a pretty bog-standard Cortex A-8. It has a slightly slower floating point unit, but if you want to it can do up to 2 sp floating point ops per clock, but that's only if you use it in NEON mode (think SSE), otherwise it's not as fast at doing floating point.

So, if you tune it, you can do quite well. If you don't tune it, it is not as good as it could be.

The problem is only TI can do the tuning for that since the NEON thing is very closed, even though it seems to be extremely capable as in their HD decoding demos. It's also only really suitable for processing large batches of floats at a time, which whilst in an ideal world is what is done already to use vector instructions it is far from the reality of what compilers tend to spit out. It is similar to how the DC does things, which conceivably might help, but the DC does four per cycle (iirc) at about half the clock rate, so you're dangerously close to not being able to absorb the inevitable emulation overhead. Writing an SH4 -> ARM + NEON code translator strikes me as a niche activity.

The good thing is that the ARM does have the whole shift per instruction thing, meaning you can do fixed point in a much more optimal way than on most other instruction sets, which is how the DS does things.

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andys

andys

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The problem is only TI can do the tuning for that since the NEON thing is very closed, even though it seems to be extremely capable as in their HD decoding demos. It's also only really suitable for processing large batches of floats at a time, which whilst in an ideal world is what is done already to use vector instructions it is far from the reality of what compilers tend to spit out. It is similar to how the DC does things, which conceivably might help, but the DC does four per cycle (iirc) at about half the clock rate, so you're dangerously close to not being able to absorb the inevitable emulation overhead. Writing an SH4 -> ARM + NEON code translator strikes me as a niche activity.

The good thing is that the ARM does have the whole shift per instruction thing, meaning you can do fixed point in a much more optimal way than on most other instruction sets, which is how the DS does things.

It's not that bad, but its quite complex.

I looked at the SH4 stuff, and the useful instruction seems to be FTRV - which takes 4 clock cycles (but can execute in parallel with other instructions (not other FTRVs)) and performs 16 MACs in that time.

NEON can do 2 MACs per clock, but it also doesn't affect any other instructions (because of the weird way that NEON is hung off of the Cortex)

That said, there's plenty to complicate matters, such as massive instruction size in comparison (NEON instructions are 32bit, and you'd need about 5 of them versus the 1 16bit instruction on the SH4). And also NEON looks like it has good memory access (fast pipe to L2)

They've got early samples up to 900Mhz, so there is some headroom.

NEON is pretty open btw, as is the TI DSP - there are specs for pretty much everything except for the graphics part (the PowerVR bit), but it can just be a bit of a bugger to find them.

All of NEON is supported in GCC, so if you're willing to dig through GCC source (or binutils source) you can see what the instruction format is. Or just embed the intrinsics directly.

http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc/ARM-NEON-Intrinsics.html is the list of the intrinsics that are supported. Also if you get the Cortex A-8 reference manual it tells you what the instruction nmemonics are

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Paulando

Paulando

Posted
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So, back onto the non-geeky stuff, Play are selling 16GB SDHC cards for £17.99 :lol: That'd be more than enough for every Mega Drive and SNES ROM, and a bunch of MAME and N64 ROMs. Then I think I'll buy another for SCUMMVM games, PS1 ISOs and the full Neo Geo Metal Slug catalogue.

Did I mention that the D-Pad looks like it's been taken directly from the revised Sega Saturn pad? Oh man, this thing is almost sexual.

http://img357.imageshack.us/img357/6803/caseingupeu2.jpg

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  • 2 weeks later...
Strawp

Strawp

Posted
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So any of you loaded-with-cash-so-I-preordered types :(, excited yet?

Yep :)

Ages away yet though. This quarter is so loaded with games I'm not going to be able to give them all my full attention. Like last year when I had to just miss Bioshock. I'm going to need to get a PS3 some time within the next 6 months too I reckon and I'm not going to do that before I've got a decent TV.

The expense!

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  • 3 weeks later...
Paulando

Paulando

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In case anybody doesn't know, the RAM in the Pandora has now been doubled to 256MB :(

I had a quick look on the forums though and it's quite scary- talk of problems with their bank and delays and that. I shall give them a proper read tomorrow!

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Strawp

Strawp

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Yeah, I read that. Hopefully they'll start shipping in a couple of weeks.

Just to confirm every Pandora will have the 256MB.

Any delays are still down to the LCDs, we have 640 and the rest are coming when ready.

The two main reasons for the upgrade were 1) being to give some compensation for any fuss we cause with asking some people to reorder and 2) being that we can see where this project (and ARM chipsets in general) might be going and the advantages the extra RAM will give us in this area.

We never really imagined running things like Ubuntu so 128MB seemed fine as 256MB was not available and when it was it was initially so expensive as to be impossible.

But then after the Ubuntu 'buzz' and many long late night chats about it we decided it was worth it, the price came down just enough (after some long negotiations) for us to do it in time.

As you all know we are now making no money on the first batch and it has become more of a love of what we are doing and getting the Pandora out there.

Doom3 anyone?

Gonna be so cool :(

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ngchol

ngchol

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In case anybody doesn't know, the RAM in the Pandora has now been doubled to 256MB :(

I had a quick look on the forums though and it's quite scary- talk of problems with their bank and delays and that. I shall give them a proper read tomorrow!

I'm going to stop reading those forums I think - the level of communication is abysmal. Over the weekend Chip (one of the devs) stated that it was mostly being made in Asia and Craig had earlier said it was being made in the US - that was a bad moment. One of them (i.e. Craig) really needs to start an official news thread and sticky it, rather than just dropping bits of information in random threads.

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sentient

sentient

Posted
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I know, it really takes the piss. They said they were too busy with both their dayjobs and Pandora related workload, so I stepped in asking if they could manage a five minute phonecall every day and i'd commit to writing blog entries. At least one person on the forum called me arrogant for questioning their ability (I wasn't, seriously).

I did a poll on their asking if people thought they should communicate more or not, and most people agreed. Afterwards vildragon made a blog update with the words 'People on the forums have demanded an update, so... ' which was kind of a slap in the face, but he's German so i'll forgive his wording on the grounds of cultural/language differences.

:(

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ngchol

ngchol

Posted
Posted
I know, it really takes the piss. They said they were too busy with both their dayjobs and Pandora related workload, so I stepped in asking if they could manage a five minute phonecall every day and i'd commit to writing blog entries. At least one person on the forum called me arrogant for questioning their ability (I wasn't, seriously).

I did a poll on their asking if people thought they should communicate more or not, and most people agreed. Afterwards vildragon made a blog update with the words 'People on the forums have demanded an update, so... ' which was kind of a slap in the face, but he's German so i'll forgive his wording on the grounds of cultural/language differences.

:(

It might be worth offering again - surely they must realise now that 5 mins spent with you will avoid much more time wasted calming people down, posting clarifications, etc...?

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sentient

sentient

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Yeah maybe. Oh btw another nugget I discovered on their forum: You might not get your Pandora till December because they're mailing them off in a trickle rather than all at once. Nice that they tell us now!

:wub:

Craig (Pandora's equivalent of Steve Jobs it seems) also stated that the firmware will be pretty ropey to begin with, and to wait for batch two for "A PSP like experience". I'm fine with that personally, i'm mentally prepared for there to be very little software and not a lot that's polished.

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Strawp

Strawp

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Posted
Yeah maybe. Oh btw another nugget I discovered on their forum: You might not get your Pandora till December because they're mailing them off in a trickle rather than all at once. Nice that they tell us now!

:wub:

Craig (Pandora's equivalent of Steve Jobs it seems) also stated that the firmware will be pretty ropey to begin with, and to wait for batch two for "A PSP like experience". I'm fine with that personally, i'm mentally prepared for there to be very little software and not a lot that's polished.

This is what I get for being an early adopter for once.

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ngchol

ngchol

Posted
Posted
I've posted this over at gp32x. If enough people reply with a +1 maybe they'll give some actual, concrete information...?

http://www.gp32x.com/board/index.php?showtopic=45087

Jesus, that "sold" guy is a massive cunt. If I didn't want an answer so much I'd rip him a new one and turn the thread into a smoking wasteland...EDIT Oh dear, my 3,000th post is full of internet rage :lol:

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Paulando

Paulando

Posted
Posted

The button layout looks fine to me, perfect for emulation. The keyboard looks a bit horrible, but I'm sure it'll be alright to use (I can't see it being needed all that much anyway). It's a bit of a brick/slab-type affair and a little bit ugly, but it's got the specs and the battery life is supposed to be excellent.

Never heard of the Wiz but I've just Googled it and it looks nice- but does it really have another d-pad in place of buttons? I can't see that working all that well. The button layout is pretty much the same as the Pandora, except the latter has a QWERTY keypad, and it's not as powerful as the Pandora either. It does look lovely, though.

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minstrels

minstrels

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Posted
The button layout looks fine to me, perfect for emulation. The keyboard looks a bit horrible, but I'm sure it'll be alright to use (I can't see it being needed all that much anyway). It's a bit of a brick/slab-type affair and a little bit ugly, but it's got the specs and the battery life is supposed to be excellent.

Never heard of the Wiz but I've just Googled it and it looks nice- but does it really have another d-pad in place of buttons? I can't see that working all that well. The button layout is pretty much the same as the Pandora, except the latter has a QWERTY keypad, and it's not as powerful as the Pandora either. It does look lovely, though.

The keyboard on the Pandora is just complete stupidity. It's not gonna be needed for a lot of things, and they've sacrificed a decent 360-alike button layout for it. Having two analogue sticks is great, but when they're laid out like that, no thanks. The layout they've got though is crap, and not a patch on the Wiz's layout.

And they've replaced the 2nd d-pad on the Wiz with actual face buttons. Thank fuck as well, cos that was a real machine killer.

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Paulando

Paulando

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Posted

Just received this email:

As you may have heard via the forums or from various news websites the Pandora has been

upgraded to have 256MB of RAM and 512MB of NAND so that it will function as a UMPC and

run things such as Ubuntu with ease.

This means Firefox, Open Office, Media players, full multitasking, much more advanced 3D,

more advanced ports of PC games and better performance overall.

In order for you to accept this upgrade we will need to refund your order and ask you to

reorder, this is due to our credit card processor being difficult with us about this.

Don't worry, the process is painless and smooth so you won't lose your place in the queue.

It may seem strange to do this at such a late hour but we really think 256MB of RAM and

512MB of NAND will make the Pandora much more powerful and future proof - it will be

a real micro laptop with this spec.

Yes - it may cause a delay, but we think a few months from now you will think it was

well worth it when you see what can be done with the extra memory. We plan to start

shipping in December with the 256MB upgrade.

There is no extra charge for this upgrade - we are paying for it. If you want to

help us out in paying for the upgrade the best way is to place your order via a bank

transfer, as this is free within the UK - with debit and credit card orders the bank

takes a fee.

If you don't want to re-order please let us know so we can allow other people to

make an order in your place.

Once your refund is complete and back in your account you can either make an online

bank transfer (they are free in the UK) to:

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gingerling

gingerling

Posted
Posted

I may cancel my order.

The forum is not filling me with confidence at all.

I dont even know what the end product is going to look like.

Yeah there are some renders but no pics of the actual end product.

The tossers making the thing go on as if they are Gods. "We are far to important and busy to keep you inferior beings updated" Is the impression I get.

Reading some of the threads on their forums is painful as well. I am going to avoid from now on.

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Paulando

Paulando

Posted
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Hmm... I know what you mean. It certainly sounds like a fantastic device and on paper it'll be able to emulate all kinds of hardware, but it all seems a bit fucked up at the moment. I might cancel my order and just wait until the first batch is out, then I'll probably order from the second batch if feedback is good.

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ngchol

ngchol

Posted
Posted
Hmm... I know what you mean. It certainly sounds like a fantastic device and on paper it'll be able to emulate all kinds of hardware, but it all seems a bit fucked up at the moment. I might cancel my order and just wait until the first batch is out, then I'll probably order from the second batch if feedback is good.

I've just had the email too. It may be a coincidence but you have no protection from your bank if you do a bank transfer, whereas with a credit card you can get a chargeback if things go wrong. I didn't get a reasonable reply to my question asking how things were going with manufacture, assembly, testing and shipping - instead I was fobbed off with "Everything's fine" - I'm going to cancel my order. If things go OK I'll order from the second batch - if not I'll get a Wibrain I1 instead.

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gingerling

gingerling

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It was fun to read about the LCDs - might not get them all this month or even next?

I have more patience than to just cancel the order - I never expected something put together by geeks to go smoothly at all. :lol:

Presumably, if I ordered through Protx I wouldn't ever have received the mail about reordering?

Well I used Protx and havent received an email about reordering

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