Genres lost to us through the years.

[shirubagan]

Nope, but I drink a hell of a lot of it.

... Quick search for it and it looks quite smart. eBay it is

[Smitty]

Fair comment that. I quite enjoyed Yager actually.

After assuming it was terrible for yonks, I played it last year and discovered that it was actually pretty good, poor-sensation-of-speed and a few other things aside.

[Asura]

Have there been many console examples since Colony Wars on the PS1?

Hmmm, let's see...

Only one I can think of is Starlancer. I suppose you'd include Yager and Project Sylpheed too, as have been mentioned. Wasn't the PS2 Battlestar Galactica game surprisingly good?

To be honest though, since Freespace 2, how many PC ones have there been? The only ones that spring to mind are Freelancer, which only just qualifies, and X2/X3.

The whole genre has had something of a downturn. Then again, I suppose it only existed in the first place because space is somewhat spartan when it comes to polygonal detail. These days, now that we can do the likes of Ace Combat's latest offerings, I guess that reason has fizzled away.

[gandhi]

I would like to see something else done with the Ace Combat engine. Something broader, where the player could fly airliners, small planes, gliders, etc. with variable missions around civilian services. There are also some great MMO scenarios for this. How about something like Eve Online, but in a modern, real-world environment, with aircraft. Small planes, combat planes, transporter planes, based around airports/landing strips, with an in-game economy for manufacturing and transport. I reckon it'd do well.

I've had the very same idea! In my mind Falcon 4.0. is the only game to have advanced the genre with new ideas; a flight sim where your actions actually affect the war.

I'd like to be able to start off with a shit plane, earning money by giving people tours and then being able to upgrade to one of those fertiliser planes or some shit. Or to be able to join the air force. Or to go through training and starts flying cargo planes for a large company. All of this with air traffic control and other planes to take into consideration.

On the topic of space combat sims, I just can't see why they stopped dead in their tracks. The most modern space sim I've played and has the kinds of things I want was Escape Velocity... and that's a top-down shareware game.

[Smitty]

I wish there was something like Freespace 2 or I-War on consoles.

I know about Project Sylpheed, but that's about it, isn't it?

[will2097]

FMV games

I reckon there is scope for a good one but the story would have to be better than brilliant. When you say FMV game, I assume you mean glorified point 'n click?

I reckon a decent 2D platformer wouldn't be bad either.

I also think an isometric game, like Desert Strike, same kind of graphics only more 'lush' I guess.

And while I'm here: Onrails shooter. Set in space. Like a sequel to Starblade. (Not Galaxian3) I don't mind 'only' shooting stuff, as long as the scenery is interesting and the controls handle well.

[mechamonkey]

Starglider 3 would be Amaze.

[SaintM]

I guess evolution did for a lot of genres.

Games like Bard's Tale (not remake!) gave way to the semi action RPGs like Dungeon Master or Eye of the Beholder, which then sort of turned into Action Adventures too.

I lost many an hour to Lands of Lore and their ilk. Ah, great times.

[b00dles]

Things have annoyingly merged for some reason or another, I didn't mind the old broken swords for instance but I played 3 I think it was and the first entire chunk of puzzles involved sliding fucking blocks about or some sort of pseudo Tomb Raider platforming shenanigans.

FUCK OFF, I want a game that involves me combining the pulley with the rubber chicken to make a hat stand (or whatever it actually was) not doing some shite platforming. Or all the "puzzles" being like 7th Guest or something.

Come on Lucasarts, bring the love.

Actually, I don't know if it counts as a genre (well it doesn't really but I'm running with it) what about all the bonkers French games you used to get by Delphine and that, all varied, all a little bit weird and somehow, unmistakeably French. None of that about any more

[b00dles]

Ico struck me as a spiritual successor to Another World.

Edit: beautiful. I also love much of de Chirico's work, so I found Ico majestic as well; not least the cover art.

I can kind of see your point, they were quite similar but at the same time, I get the impression that Ico would have been a lot more mental had it have been made by a French devco like Delphine or someone.

They always managed to make things just a bit different somehow, like No More Heroes is or something, all quite familiar but just somehow fresh and different.

The Workbench speech powered Operation Stealth on the Amiga is still one of the most unintentionally funny games ever, as well as being quite a good point and clicker in it's own right. Future Wars also (although having pissing insta-kill moments) was bloody great at the time. I haven't played it since I was about 9 or 10 or whatever though, so it's probably actually a bit shit...

I dunno, I suppose I miss the fact that so many games / genres have all molded into one sort of lowest common denominator type format / style. Unfortunately for us, that denominator seems to be angst ridden american yoofs.

God I sound like an old cunt

[b00dles]

That speech utility was hours of fun! Damn impressive at the time.

The shared aspect between Ico and Another World, which is borrowed from de Chirico and others, is friendship/love in places of isolation. It's a beautiful concept.

It's not going to change. Because we were an early generation, games had to mature along with their graphics to retain our interest. Now that new kids come through every few years, gaming is forced - by publishers - to remain pretty static.

Typing into workbench 'i need a /' was possibly one of the funniest things in my young years... The brilliance in operation stealth (outside the intro, which was amazing but totally ruined when workbench pronounced stealth as "steeelth") was when you went to spain and the customs chap said "stop senor" without any accent at all.

Fair point in regards to friendship etc with AW and Ico, I still fondly remember you alien buddy's first words when you helped him out with the swinging cage bit; 'mai tsu wa' (but it's difficult to type... )

And regards to the demographic for games, I unfortunately know that's how it is but hey-ho, it still annoys me.

[TehStu]

But I am talking about the genre. Where are the new releases to push things forward? To give new experiences. The genre is dead. Why?

Great opening post, pretty much agree with everything you said. As for the above, I find it beyond irony that just as PC hardware went all uber 3D, the countless supply flightsims died on its arse. What the hell was that all about? I used to lap them all up, and they were starting to look bloody gorgeous too (EF2000, Falcon 4 etc).

The likes of Ace Combat is ok, I guess, but I rather liked the fighter plane games where there were so many keys, almost every combination of alt+something, shift+something and ctrl+something did, well, something.

[Talk Show Host]

I believe there is a market, but it's generally an older demographic now. Through my teenage years it felt as if gaming was maturing with me, up until I reached my early-20s. These genres aren't made in numbers any more because while there is a market, it's not the biggest section; not by a long shot*. Late-teens often have a bit of disposable money, and are also more easily satisfied than older gamers. By the time these people are in their mid-20s there's a new batch of keen teens.

I see what you are saying but I am not entirely convinced. Maybe I'm stuck a little in the past but I really can't understand the reasoning of publishers to actually "kill" some genres. I can understand genres evolving or sub-branching, thus producing other genres like the "action adventure", the "strategy RPG" or the "RTS-RPG", etc...

But pulling the plug completely or almost completely on some genres in an era where we have the technology and we have the new control methods? Don't you think for example that a new Freespace or Tie Fighter would sell well (at least 500k) with new graphics, physics, AI and full scale online wars?

I'm dreaming of Monkey Island or Day of the Tentacle puzzles with the Wiimote (let alone the possibilities of other puzzles) and I actually drool. Wouldn't a new Monkey Island sell? I think it would do great!

Or I am thinking in the past?

Great opening post, pretty much agree with everything you said. As for the above, I find it beyond irony that just as PC hardware went all uber 3D, the countless supply flightsims died on its arse. What the hell was that all about? I used to lap them all up, and they were starting to look bloody gorgeous too (EF2000, Falcon 4 etc).

I agree. Besides, the IL series still sell enough to warranty expansions and sequels. Doesn't that mean that there is a market out there? With some new releases to provide competition, some new ideas (expanding the online portion of these games mainly) and a little bit of advertising, a lot of people who used to play these games would come back I believe (and, why not, maybe younger audiences would come too).

The shared aspect between Ico and Another World, which is borrowed from de Chirico and others, is friendship/love in places of isolation. It's a beautiful concept.

Are you living in my head?

[Talk Show Host]

Yes, *I* do.

Meaning that the publishers don't or that there aren't enough of us?

P.S. Don't answer "both". It will be very depressing.

[Paul3704]

I miss a proper God game.

[Simon S]

What the balls happened to text adventures. There's a hell of a lot of concepts and emotion that for centuries has been portrayed brilliantly through the written word. Things which just don't work in a visual medium.

I realise there's still a decent interactive fiction community, with some very impressive work, but they don't have the time or resources a few good authors and coders could put in to a brilliantly interactive book.

* sigh* I miss infocom. Makes me wish I could write consistently well.

[JohnC]

The pictures in this post made me think of a new Indy point and click game.

[Gwynster]

I always assumed the death of flightsims was because mouselook became standard for everything, despite being really shit for flightsims. Somewhere along the line, Joysticks stopped being worthwhile things to have, and nowadays it's kind of hard to find any information about them anywhere except occasionally in PC Gamer.

There are internet communities where you can find out about joysticks, but on the whole they're enthusiasts who take an enthusiast view rather than a casual one. If you just want to muck about with the BSG mod for Freespace 2, you won't want a £100 piece of pro kit, but equally you don't want to make the game shit by getting a cheap Game stick (and yes, they are really pants).

I think it's good that Adventure games are making a small comeback after the Kings Quest games worked so hard to kill the genre for good. Sam & Max is good, the Blackwell Legacy series is worth a look, Ben 'Yahtzee' Croshaw has done a few nice ones (which are free as well), and there are plenty more if you look about for them.

Some people see it as a problem that a lot of rich genres are confined ot the Indie scene, but I can't help feeling that in some ways it's good to have games which evolve and improve themselves through praise and criticism, rather than the mass market approach where all that happens is duplication of titles that sell well (usually only selling well because of marketing and hype, regardless of actual quality).

[Asura]

Even GTA IV - the poster boy of adult gaming, remains slightly compromised.

That might raise the question, just because of its ultra-violent nature, IS GTA particularly adult?

I always assumed the death of flightsims was because mouselook became standard for everything, despite being really shit for flightsims. Somewhere along the line, Joysticks stopped being worthwhile things to have, and nowadays it's kind of hard to find any information about them anywhere except occasionally in PC Gamer.

I think USB played a part in it too. Many of the old sticks can't be used on current systems, despite their built-to-last construction. Then companies like Thrustmaster got bought out by Guillemot and started producing crappy hardware.

[SMD]

I want a new Wonder Boy game

In fact, the action RPG genre has been pretty much just Zelda lately, with the notable exception of Okami.

[Dimahoo]

We were discussing iRacing only the other day.

Fair play to the Wonderboy comment. Theres no be a true 2D platformer for yonks. (Well since Ultra extreme GnG 2 anyway).

[Sprite Machine]

But pulling the plug completely or almost completely on some genres in an era where we have the technology and we have the new control methods? Don't you think for example that a new Freespace or Tie Fighter would sell well (at least 500k) with new graphics, physics, AI and full scale online wars?

Given how much it would cost to make, it would be more profitable to make some derivitive action game and sell twice as many copies. The rising costs of games means publishers will try to cover as many bases as possible, not aim for small sectors of the market.

[Talk Show Host]

Given how much it would cost to make, it would be more profitable to make some derivitive action game and sell twice as many copies. The rising costs of games means publishers will try to cover as many bases as possible, not aim for small sectors of the market.

You think it would cost more to make than the current AAA titles do?

Also, would a Star Wars epic with online space combat sell less than, let's say, Dead Rising?

[smac]

Given how much it would cost to make, it would be more profitable to make some derivitive action game and sell twice as many copies. The rising costs of games means publishers will try to cover as many bases as possible, not aim for small sectors of the market.

Yeah, I've heard a publisher say exactly that in a presentation at some conference - they'd pass on a great game which is likely to make no more than a modest profit if successful, to always back one which has a much bigger potential market.

[Sprite Machine]

You think it would cost more to make than the current AAA titles do?

If you're talking about big online battles and persistent worlds and stuff, quite possibly. But even if it cost the same, and is only selling half the number of copies, it's still less viable.

Also, would a Star Wars epic with online space combat sell less than, let's say, Dead Rising?

Admittedly it would have a rather mass-market license to sell it. Wasn't Star Wars Galaxies basically just that, though?

[routeburn]

I just want someone to do a remake, or sequel of Carrier Command (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrier_Command).

I think the biggest issue we're seeing is that PC gaming is going the way of the Dodo, and the consoles don't quite support the same user interface as was used for these games that were traditionally played at a desk with mouse + keyboard. Sitting on the sofa with a wireless mouse and keyboard doesn't quite cut it, so it looks like some evolution is required for console input devices.

Silicon Graphics used to have a great input device for their graphics workstations, called the Spaceball:

the Spaceball is now discontinued, but was used for virtual reality modelling etc. in the 1990s. The user can move forward/back, left/right; they can twist the ball to rotate left/right; they can move up/down by pulling the ball upwards and pushing it downwards. There's also the array of buttons along the front. The ball didn't actually turn and twist, but was all pressure-based.

Someone should remake a wireless one of these for home consoles.

[Talk Show Host]

If you're talking about big online battles and persistent worlds and stuff, quite possibly. But even if it cost the same, and is only selling half the number of copies, it's still less viable.

Well if it's persistent, yes. I am just talking about a new game in the Tie Fighter style but with online support.

Admittedly it would have a rather mass-market license to sell it. Wasn't Star Wars Galaxies basically just that, though?

SWG was an MMO though. And a really badly managed one.

You think it's the genre of space combat that is the obstacle? People don't care any more?

[Gwynster]

Also, would a Star Wars epic with online space combat sell less than, let's say, Dead Rising?

I'd really fucking love another X-Wing vs TIE Fighter.

But I'd really fucking hate another Rogue Squadron.

Which is more likely to get made?

[Sprite Machine]

You think it's the genre of space combat that is the obstacle? People don't care any more?

Not as such. I think the same number of people still care as they once did, but those numbers are no longer enough to cover the costs of making it. Same with point-and-click adventures.

[Liquid Myth]

Yeah, I've heard a publisher say exactly that in a presentation at some conference - they'd pass on a great game which is likely to make no more than a modest profit if successful, to always back one which has a much bigger potential market.

But there's loads of game models that would be much cheaper to make (2D scrolling platformer, 2D scrolling beat-em-up, pinball, point 'n click), and markets to deliver them (XBLA/PSN/PC downloadable things/DS). But most companies are now only interested in aping the last big thing.