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Virtual On Oratorio Tangram on XBLA in April

Cacophanus

By Cacophanus
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Cacophanus

Cacophanus

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http://www.gamerbytes.com/2009/02/virtual_..._tangram_to.php

I know the US patent thing came up a while ago but this is much more concrete in terms of source. Still, this is probably going to be buttock clenchingly awful without sticks, as Oratan was several orders faster than Marz (and that was barely playable on the pad).

The Saturn version isn't a good reference here though, as the game was completely re-written to work on the pad (to the extent half of the more advanced inputs were removed, like single frame cancels).

I think this is good from an introductory standpoint though, as it will mean more people will have exposure to the series. It's just that they'll have a rather skewed exposure in terms of the wonky control input.

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Cacophanus

Cacophanus

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But didn't VooT on the DC require that special twin stick controller, and all 360 pads have ... two sticks

Why wouldn't this work?

Except the original two games are based around digital microswitched inputs, not analogue. The analogue sticks have a MASSIVE deadzone in terms of input, which makes a lot of the game unplayable.

This should illustrate what I'm talking about:

In order to do jump cancels I have to open and close the sticks very quickly to re-acquire a target. It has to be instantaneous, otherwise you can track your target.

If they're porting Oratan straight it will cause alls of problems.

Won't it just basically be the same as the recent PS2 conversion of the original in terms of controls? can't see any other way of doing it on a bog standard controller.

The PS2 port suffered from the same problems as Marz, as it had the same control options.

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dogsout

dogsout

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Virtual On. I'd probably suck cock love to play a proper sequel to VOOT. MARS was shit. Please, Sega, make it happen.

My mate and I had managed to get ourselves so worked up over the game by just constantly talking about it and reading about it on the net at school, that one day he snapped, stole £300 from his Dad and imported a DC with the game. I was too happy to finally play the game to care about the moral decisions he had made in order to obtain it. I don't think I've ever been happier with a pad in my hand (yes, a pad, the sticks came later). He got to keep it as well because he had leverage; his Dad had been playing away from home and in exchange for silence he let him keep the proceeds of his crime. Fucking crazy people, but I didn't give a shit, I had access to VOOT.

Please, Sega, make it happen.

I'm so happy right now.

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spaceyjase

spaceyjase

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But didn't VooT on the DC require that special twin stick controller, and all 360 pads have ... two sticks

Why wouldn't this work?

This.

Both console pads have two shoulder buttons that could replace the two on each stick, have the face buttons or directional pad (oh noes!) do anything extra. The PS3 has motion control if that was ever needed.

It may not be as warm and fuzzy as have two large mecha dildosjoysticks protruding from your lap but it would work.

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Cacophanus

Cacophanus

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This.

Both console pads have two shoulder buttons that could replace the two on each stick, have the face buttons or directional pad (oh noes!) do anything extra. The PS3 has motion control if that was ever needed.

It may not be as warm and fuzzy as have two large mecha dildosjoysticks protruding from your lap but it would work.

No, it doesn't. The shoulder buttons aren't the issue, it's the directional input on the pad that's the issue. The d-pad and face buttons are more viable than the analogue sticks but you still have another problem to contend with; your fingers can't cover the distance across the pad as fast as you would with the twinsticks. The leverage makes a huge difference in terms of the control response as well you see.

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Ketchup

Ketchup

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I think you're looking at this from the wrong viewpoint. You obviously know the game inside out and have practiced it. Hell, you even have an original cab setup in your own home. Now think about playing this over XBL, lag and all. All the stuff you mentioned won't be viable and it's probably better if they make this for a more casual audience rather than the hardcore.

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Cacophanus

Cacophanus

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Oratorio definately needs Digital sticks to remain as technical as it needs to be, but i still welcome a watered down Virtual On for XBLA. great news.

As would I but this isn't a bespoke Virtual On for the 360/PSN. It's a port of a game that required a specific peripheral to work properly.

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Cacophanus

Cacophanus

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I think you're looking at this from the wrong viewpoint. You obviously know the game inside out and have practiced it. Hell, you even have an original cab setup in your own home. Now think about playing this over XBL, lag and all. All the stuff you mentioned won't be viable and it's probably better if they make this for a more casual audience rather than the hardcore.

Except that the only people that buy games via digital download are hardcore gamers. That's the reason Virtual On is even being considered.

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Cacophanus

Cacophanus

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Ports can be tweaked though no?

The whole point of the original Dreamcast version was that it was a functional replica of the arcade original, hence why it had the sticks as a peripheral. This was proven in the Saturn version, as the game was completely re-written for the system to the extent that it played very differently than its arcade parent, which pissed off a lot of the arcade community at the time. The new PS2 port of the original Virtual On showed how badly the game needed the sticks, as that was essentially an arcade perfect port (in terms of the codebase).

If you want to introduce Virtual On to the masses, make a new one specifically for the pad (Marz tried this but failed by having it's codebase from Force). Porting a very good arcade game without the necessary control hardware is just a waste.

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Cacophanus

Cacophanus

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I think Cacophanus is expecting this conversion to control like the past PS2 attempts at VO, ie not good enough for high end play on a bog standard controller with 2 analogue sticks.

Not so much "high end", as basic tactics (jump cancels aren't "advanced" at all really). Thankfully I have these...

virtualon_ps_sticks.jpg

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mushashi

mushashi

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I'm a complete beginner at the games, stuff like jump canceling didn't really ever occur to me whenever I've played the games in the past ;)

I do know they've got an awful lot of potential depth to them, rather like that other Sega arcade versus arena fighter series.

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Asura

Asura

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If they're porting Oratan straight it will cause alls of problems.

They most likely won't; they'll probably change some things on account of the different controls. It won't be exactly the same but could still be good.

Yeah i agree. Without digi sticks its basically just not oratorio. Would love an xbla Virtual on lite though. Marz sucked

It would make a really good XBLA, winner-stays-on lobbies sort of game. It's fast, skillful and really fun.

As much as I love OT, I reckon this is a really odd choice by Sega. It's as niche as it gets.

It was converted to Dreamcast though, and wasn't that PC based hardware? Plus the texture detail was quite low back then in terms of resolution (though the game still looked great) so maybe it'd be easy to get in under the size limit, and as Cacky says, if they'll release Ikaruga they'll release VOOT, or VOOM, or something Virtual-On flavoured.

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Ketchup

Ketchup

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Except that the only people that buy games via digital download are hardcore gamers. That's the reason Virtual On is even being considered.

I think who you are talking about are not Hardcore gamers. The guys that play Halo 3 and download XBLA stuff sure like their gaming. But the people who are into all the little tweaks and frame counting things are not really your average gamer, they aint even hardcore gamers. They are something above that, they know the games inside and out and buy based on what they think, not magazine review scores.

As others have said, this is a niche as it comes. The type of people buying this will be those that know the game in depth. And if Sega don't get that right then no one will download it.

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Cacophanus

Cacophanus

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It was converted to Dreamcast though, and wasn't that PC based hardware? Plus the texture detail was quite low back then in terms of resolution (though the game still looked great) so maybe it'd be easy to get in under the size limit, and as Cacky says, if they'll release Ikaruga they'll release VOOT, or VOOM, or something Virtual-On flavoured.

That's the problem though, it's not Virtual On "flavoured"; it's specifically Oratan that's getting ported. This is why there are lots of potentially massive problems with how the game will control without sticks, as Oratan was never built around a pad setup.

I'll also be interested to see what they do to it in terms of upscaling and asset improvement, whether it will be a dirty knock-off like Soul Calibur or something shinier like Ikaruga.

Where'd you get those sticks Ollie? Are they custom made? (excuse my ignorance, I see a PS plug, and didn't realise VO sticks had been made for the system)

They're custom made, by a nice chap in Japan. It only works on Marz and the recent PS2 port of Virtual On as both have a button config that uses the d-pad and face buttons for movement (like magic_lord pointed out, though the sticks solve the problem he overlooked). It uses an original DualShock as the face buttons are digital (rather than analogue) so the game is more responsive as a consequence. I did this video using the sticks in that picture:

I think who you are talking about are not Hardcore gamers. The guys that play Halo 3 and download XBLA stuff sure like their gaming. But the people who are into all the little tweaks and frame counting things are not really your average gamer, they aint even hardcore gamers. They are something above that, they know the games inside and out and buy based on what they think, not magazine review scores.

As others have said, this is a niche as it comes. The type of people buying this will be those that know the game in depth. And if Sega don't get that right then no one will download it.

That's the same for any port though and the market demographic on XBLA/PSN are very much hardcore gamers. It's why you get such specialised titles on the respective services. Anyway, when it comes to Oratan I'm not talking about the "little tweaks"; it's all about the basic control input. I haven't even touched on any of the advanced aspects of the game.

I would be extremely surprised if Oratorio Tangram on XBLA sold more than Ikaruga.

If you knew how much Ikaruga actually sold on XBLA you probably wouldn't make that bet. Treasure games are massively niche on the whole, even in Japan. Virtual On as a series by contrast has been fiscally far more successful. The problem is that SEGA, lo and behold, buggered it all up with Force and then Marz.

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