Left 4 Dead 2

[Uzi]

How is it purely speculation when those changes have been announced? New skins, those are obvious - we've seen the new characters in the trailer/screenshots. The wandering witch - even if you don't think the name is self explanatory, reports from e3 (I assume journalists didn't just make all this up) say that it's just a witch that wanders around. Atmosphere ruined? Haven't you seen the trailers, screenshots, gameplay footage of the levels in sunny daylight? How many levels in L4D take place in bright light? How many good survival/horror/zombie games take place in bright sunshine where you can see everything coming a mile away?

Guns already kill zombies in one shot, assuming you have half decent accuracy. Specials are the only type of zombies that really matter and melee weapons will suck against them for one fairly obvious reason - you have to be in melee range. Is it speculation to assume that a chainsaw doesn't have a 20 yard range?

Why weren't they added for L4D if they're going to add so much?

Yes. It just so happened that the half they did get round to finishing was excellent. Most reviews and the majority of people I've talked to or posts I've read mentioned the lack of content and concerns over replayability. So far they've been right to have been worried. None of the six friends I originally played with still play.

Do you realize that all you people whining and acting childishly towards people that disagree with you are as bad as those that joined the boycott l4d2 steam group? I don't see how not liking what I've heard so far about the game means I have something stuck up my arse, or make my opinion any less valid. You think what's been announced is sufficient content to justify a sequel and what will most likely be a £30 price tag (yes, that is speculation but probable, otherwise they'd have just released it as an expansion), rather than DLC or an expansion. I don't.

Again a load of bla bla bla speculation having not played the thing. You've actually gone and reviewed the game in your head without having touched it. You've even gone as far as caculating melee range on specials!

I said it being daylight could change it from being a night time horror scenario to a b movie day time horde situation- a great way to change the feel and tempo. Dead Rising was a lot more fun in the day, the whole sunny comedic horde dawn of the dead feel.

And did you just say if melee weapons were good why wern't they in Left 4 Dead 1? Oh wow, you must look at every single sequel of every game and sit there in pure puzzlement with your jaw wide open. "Oh this is so weird, WHY WASN'T THIS IN THE LAST GAME!". It's called adding more features and ideas.

And yeah, if it ships with more features and content than 1 and I have just as much fun with it, then yeah its worth the 30 quid. Better than paying 7 quid for a new map every few months. Besides if you've stopped playing it after getting a lot of playtime out of it, one map every so often isn't as motivating or fun to me as a whole new game, scenario, feel and features.

DLC would eventually end up being the same anyway if they just continued it that way. The 5 pieces of Fallout 3 dlc come to 40 quid. The two GTA DLC's will be 40 dollars in total. And no resale value either

[Uzi]

To be honest I feel sorry for Valve. They've gone above and beyond the call of duty time and again with their support and their pricing on steam and the release of something like The Orange Box and it just seems to have created a selfish fanbase with entitlement issues.

I've see justifiable backlashes against EA, Activision, loads of devs and publishers, but if even Valve can get this type of reaction for this, gamers really are a whiny, negative needy fucking bunch.

[Mr. Gerbik]

I love how Radish is basically saying that he hates all the new additions for L4D2, but he's still pissed off about those same additions not being released as an expansion pack for the first game.

[Halo]

I've see justifiable backlashes against EA, Activision, loads of devs and publishers, but if even Valve can get this type of reaction for this, gamers really are a whiny, negative needy fucking bunch.

Because Valve have taken on EA and Activision tactics?

[snowbind]

I love how Radish is basically saying that he hates all the new additions for L4D2, but he's still pissed off about those same additions not being released as an expansion pack for the first game.

His arguing skills are terrible.

Because Valve have taken on EA and Activision tactics?

I think that is really unfair. Valve don't release games on a yearly basis, I mean ffs how long has episode 3 taken. L4D I think exceeded a lot of expectations and it would be nieve to think that Valve weren't trying to capitalise on it a little bit. But look at the quality content they churn out and the content that they churn out for free. I am not suggesting that we should all pay to subsidies all the free stuff, that was free, you can't retro charge for it. Still though it's not like they are offerening a sub par product, they are offering more than was included in the orginal game. With upgrades and the added knowledge of what works and what doesn't. I really can't see what there is to get up in arms about.

Being upset about it not being free is one thing, but to try and rationalize all that by assuming the game will be shit blah blah blah is stupid. This argument would literally never, ever take place anywhere but the internet. Most people don't give a shit and are just happy for a new game. As far as I can see it's simple buy it or don't. But if you aren't going to buy it, be honest, you don't want to pay for something you think should be free. Whilst the rest of us are happy to pay for it. Cut out the bull.

[Uzi]

Because Valve have taken on EA and Activision tactics?

Haha!

Where? Releasing a game in 12 months? That's not what I meant, it was stuff like Rock Band pricing delays/The initial charges for some of the stuff in Battlefield Bad Company/throwing a hissyfit about Brutal Legend. Stuff like that.

Is a game less worthy or is the developed less respected because the game comes out in a year rather than 2 or 3 or whatever? Come on man, where are these bullshit parameters coming from. When I saw this announced at the MS conference I had no idea this type of stuff would follow-its insane.

[hanzo]

The people saying that the fact that it's set in daylight somehow ruins the atmosphere have obviously never played STALKER or watched zombie films.

[AnimeExpert2003]

A level set in Africa would be perfect for this game. Hopefully Valve have realised this and are working on it as we speak.

They should have called it "Left 4 Dead AGAIN".

[deerokus]

I can certainly sympathise with the feeling that L4D itself was very light on content, it really needed many more campaigns and I hope 2 manages this. Personally I still play it occasionally and love it, but all of my friends who i played with got bored of the same 4 campaigns over and over and stopped playing. Survival mode was pretty half-assed.

[rumblecat]

New skins...

Not trying to gang up on you here, but they're not just 'new skins' and I think you probably know that. They're obviously new characters- with their own specific designs, personalities and voice actors. I've noticed how a lot of people who have decided they're against L4D2 make an effort to continually downplay any changes "It's only five new maps", "they're just new skins" etc etc.

Seems fairly simple to me- Valve decided to make a new Left 4 Dead game which would be a sequel. They decided to have the content exceed that of the original. I really don't understand where all the whining comes from. Sure, I get it when people say they felt the original was a bit light on content- I get it but I disagree, I've put far more hours into L4D than almost all other games in the past year and I'm not bored yet- but if you bought the original game on the sole criteria that there had to be significant free DLC for it, then it might have been a bit smarter to wait until, y'know, that content actually existed. But Valve have already said there's more stuff to be released for L4D... so everyone should be happy... shouldn't they?

I love how Radish is basically saying that he hates all the new additions for L4D2, but he's still pissed off about those same additions not being released as an expansion pack for the first game.

[NecroMorrius]

Poor old Valve, people whinge and whine at them forever because they take so long to make games. Then they take the time to build a game component which essentially runs itself (The AI director) when given a bunch of assets and a ruleset. This means they can make another game faster than the usual FIVE YEARS it takes them to get another masterpiece out of the door. They release L4D, everyone loves it. They have lots of ideas on how to make it better. They think, 'hey, we could make a whole new game for our fans! Instead of single campaigns or game-changing elements everyone will complain about, we can stick it all into a new game, bigger better and more badass than L4D1, leaving the original intact and make a bit of money in the process! Why not, everyone else is doing it, and it solves all those Microsoft-imposed issues regarding extra content on the 360 too. It would be harsh to make people pay for content that should be free, so we'll make sure it packs a whole load of value and eclipses the first game in every way!'

Fans: "Motherfuckers, I want free shit. Wah Wah Wah. You said we could have free shit".

Valve: "We gave you survival mode?"

Fans: "Not good enough, wah wah wah".

Valve: "Ok, well we'll continue to support L4D with more content as time goes on".

Fans: "Too late Valve moneygrabbing cashcow whorebags! wah wah everything in L4D2 is shit but I want it for free anyway wah wah".

Valve: "Don't buy it then".

Fans: "Hmpppph".

Five months later:

Most fans: "Wow, L4D2 is really good. It's even bigger than the game I was happy to pay full price for a year ago. Can't complain! Take that Zombie scum!"

Stupid fans: "Wah Wah, feel the wrath of a few idiots not buying a fun game".

Valve: "Portal 2 motherfuckers!!!"

Most fans: "WHEEEEEEE!"

I understand that Valve shouldn't have told people they were planning so much extra content in hindsight. But it's all going into what will undoubtedly be the best L4D experience you could have. L4D, even if you only play each campaign once and play versus a couple of times, is still longer than many other great games, Uncharted for example. The fact you can play the whole campaign from start to finish with three friends is great. The fact it's replayable many times due to the AI director switching things up is also great. The only reason most people felt L4D needed more content is because it was so damn good, so L4D2 is a bitter pill in some respects.

Whatever, I've got the infinitely superior PC version, so bring on the mods

[snowbind]

Nailed it.

[Popo]

Come on, Valve will not offer any new content for Left 4 Dead, other than bug fixing or potentially balancing.

People are coming from a background of free content for online games - Counterstrike, Day of Defeat, Team Fortress, et al. weaned people on the idea that Half Life mods are out there with the understanding that they are free and are regularly updated with new maps, content, modes of play and balancing/bug fixing.

Since Valve brought all those mods in-house and updated them for the new Half Life 2 engine, they've slowly been changing the system. Does anyone know when Counterstrike was last updated and what was included (I haven't played for a long time)? Anyway, L4D represents the culmination of these efforts to professionalise and market these mods as products for sale and it's obviously going to burn people when Valve offer the updates as a sequel rather than updates.

Yes, there's a lot of new content, but compare Counterstrike as it was released originally with Counterstrike 1.6 and notice the massive difference between them. If the L4D2 content was released in bits over a long period of time it wouldn't be any difference - the only difference is Valve know they've got a shit-hot product that they can market through their own platform and make a lot of money off of, so why not package it as a sequel?

The mindset is difference and you need to recognise why people are upset by the sequel.

[RubberJohnny]

I've see justifiable backlashes against EA, Activision, loads of devs and publishers, but if even Valve can get this type of reaction for this, gamers really are a whiny, negative needy fucking bunch.

Yeah, this whole reaction really just emphasises how spoiled and entitled PC gamers are.

It's like the 'Diablo 3 being more colourful' thing - for years and years people were hoping, waiting for a sequel - and they get it, and instantly it's fucking terrible because it features more than a monochrome colour palette and a rainbow. The complete turn around of popular opinion in such a short time over something so fucking trivial is staggering. Gamers don't realise how good they've got it.

[Uzi]

I think hardcore PC dudes have burned it into their minds with Valve's admirable treatment of when they're getting a lucky break and when they're seeing a decent value videogame which holds up with the rest of the market outside of their own 10 year counterstrike stint which has in total only cost them like 40 dollars or so over the years (Half Life then Half Life 2) or the sheer cheapness of the Orange Box.

These two products are outsides of the usual realms of what games get, exceptionally good value and support. But they are the exception. The norm is pretty much every other videogame you buy and unless you blow your tops at that, it's a strangle bubble to live in that just because it's valve that they don't want to take the oppurtunity to turn one of their products into a money maker. Left 4 Dead sold great amounts, especially on the 360, the console is a strong point for them and for the console, retail still rules. It says a lot that it was unveiled at what was more or less, the 360 conference.

This isn't another counterstrike or Team Fortress and if that genuinely really angers you, don't buy it. Valve have a product thats joined the rest of the worlds main videogame market. They are a business as well, not just a service provider/charity to you guys. As long as the game is good and it gives as much fun/playtime as the previous game (over which it has 100 percent new content and more on disc than what the first game shipped with).

So yeah, stay pissed off if you want and if you think they're compromising something, but in the rest of the videogame world, they're making a sequel to a very popular and a very good game, well received by both gamers, critics and sold well. They've been good enough in my eyes to bring out the same if not better deal again a year later (over 12 months I have enough money to save another 35 quid- I must be rich) then. Either way, vote with your wallets if you want, but I hope this isn't more annoying noise, petition and whining from those expecting near freeloading amounts just because it's Valve. Gamers/nerds moaning is one of the most soul destroying things to read, its always so meh.

[Rudi von Starnberg]

It's not a PC gamer issue, hardcore or otherwise. Just a 'twat' one.

[Uzi]

It's not a PC gamer issue, hardcore or otherwise. Just a 'twat' one.

Yeah it was mainly in response to what Popo was saying.

It's not like they're the same thing anyway. I can still play de_dust today and enjoy it, the maps on Left 4 Dead get old after a few months, I'm glad they reset it and give more than 100 percent new content rather than let you download some new shit every now and again, they're very different genres and I can understand different delivery methods of them even if others cant

[Guest]

You realise the AI director is just RND*5 and some trigger points?

Amazing what a bit of marketing spin can do!

I don't see a problem with L4D2 though, apart from the strange title (L4D4 will be a one...) - yearly updates?! Look at what FIFA did. By all rights this should be TWICE the game L4D was...

Although I'd expect a lot more content this time around. More maps, please, now you've nailed the "AI Director"

[RubberJohnny]

It's not a PC gamer issue, hardcore or otherwise. Just a 'twat' one.

There were quite a few people blaming it on consoles upthread.

[Rudi von Starnberg]

They're just as wrong.

[Raide]

Hopefully the L4D SDK will work on L4D2 stuff once it arrives.

[Popo]

Valve NEVER offered games for free - Counterstrike et al. were mods developed by regular people who wanted to play those games; so they made them and distributed them for nothing.

Go from that, to the current situation - Valve own the all the IPs now and are marketing them efficiently. People were prepared to go along with that, because (I think) the jump in technology and overall polish - especially with regards to TF2 - definitely made up the difference between the old and the new. Certainly people have been happy with what they were paying for.

(also, the idea of paying for the mods was initially softened by the fact that they were bundled with the main games; CS and DOD could be included with HL2 and TF2 with the Orange Box)

However people were not expecting a L4D2 - they obviously expected to buy the game and then have it updated, as previous games were in the past - I'm not sure the same could be said for the HL2-generation mods; it's not good business sense - but not only are people not getting the updates they expected, they've being told they have to pay for it.

That's why they're upset, ya dig?

I'm playing devil's advocate here, but that's not to say I don't sympathise with those upset. Counterstrike lasted for years and years on the back of regular updates, all for a game that was completely free, start to finish. Of course, free mods are still out there and L4D was never marketed as such, but there is a reason why people are pissed off and it's got nothing to do with being a twat, as Rude von Starnberg put it.

[Uzi]

I still don't buy it and explained as much above, those points would be repeated.

I find it absurd people are annoyed/upset at the reveal of a sequel for a good game! Can you believe it! Yo another good game is going out! Nooooooooooooooooooo!

That's what it boils down too, all the devil's advocate stuff is expectations held up from other products, not because they're doing anything unfair or greedy in the general sense. Unless Valve are being cunts, then the moaners are being cunts. It's one or the other.

[Raide]

Valve is a business and that business needs to make money. If they can make a great game and sell it, then that is all part of the business.

Upsetting for some but this is how it works.

[moosegrinder]

It's fucking hilarious how all the good shit Valve do as a company has been forgotten because of this. In some corners of the interwebs anyway.

[Popo]

all the devil's advocate stuff is expectations held up from other products

That's precisely my point though - Valve have made all those lovely free games into marketable, profitable games, only this time it's rubbed people up the wrong way because they weren't expecting it, not in this form anyway.

People aren't being cunts for the sake of it, they genuinely expected L4D to be updated with new content as a matter of course. You might call it getting something for nothing, but can you honestly not see the difference? People just might not be cunts with a sense of entitlement; they MIGHT be people who feel they're having something taken away from them.

That's not to say they're right in what they feel - nor am I saying Valve are doing the best thing by doing L4D2. I can see both points of view on this one.

[NecroMorrius]

I think hardcore PC dudes have burned it into their minds with Valve's admirable treatment of when they're getting a lucky break and when they're seeing a decent value videogame which holds up with the rest of the market outside of their own 10 year counterstrike stint which has in total only cost them like 40 dollars or so over the years (Half Life then Half Life 2) or the sheer cheapness of the Orange Box.

I had to reread that sentence four times before my brain could make sense of it Talk about a long day at work. I suppose you could also add that many, many PC gamers have a (shall we say) 'familiarity' with yarring games, plus the £10 a month 'play for 20 hours a day' behemoth Wow. I'm sure the 360 had more than a little to do with L4D2 being a full game. At the least, if it was PC-only it probably would have been a very fully-featured expansion pack. I'm sure Valve recognise this though, and I'm betting they're stuffing the game with valuerific goodness in a bid to assuage this assumption.

[moosegrinder]

I also find it hilarious how anybody could think L4D is a game with a limited life span. Yeah, there's 4 scenarios but fucking hell, the games brilliantly replayable.

This thread doesn't half make me sad

[Uzi]

That's precisely my point though - Valve have made all those lovely free games into marketable, profitable games, only this time it's rubbed people up the wrong way because they weren't expecting it, not in this form anyway.

People aren't being cunts for the sake of it, they genuinely expected L4D to be updated with new content as a matter of course. You might call it getting something for nothing, but can you honestly not see the difference?

Of course I see the difference, I just don't see it as a reason to be upset. You can't base expectations from one line of products to another anyway, it's a stupid way to expect a company to produce and deliver. They can't be held in shackles by these expectations or be dominated by that.

These folk are naive and can't think outside or their own sense of entitlement and don't know where the stick of appreciation ends (for all the free/cheap good stuff valve do) and where the stick of being a consumer begins.

[Uzi]

I had to reread that sentence four times before my brain could make sense of it Talk about a long day at work.

Sorry long day for me as well, I had no idea it got bludgeoned into a whole sentence!