New Super Mario Bros. Wii

[Hewson]

Do you know what, bcass, sorry for posting that - it was provocative. Weirdly I think we probably might agree on a few things about this game. I don't think it's the second coming (and I think you rather unfairly stereotype me as someone who defends Nintendo no matter what while I do the same to you in rather different terms ). Having said that, I LOVE Mario platformers and I've got a lot of joy out of this - much more than say Mario DS, which I thought was pretty lame. But haven't you? I mean, collectively, for all your denials about individual references to this game being shit, your overall posts tell a really clear story. Haven't you enjoyed it on some level? As to its appeal to casual gamers and the help system, I think we'll just have to agree to disagree...

[bcass]

I have impossible expectations where Nintendo are concerned - that's the real problem. They made some of the best games ever. I think they set the bar so high in the past, that they can never hope to do better, or at least I don't think they can. With the exception of the odd game here and there over ever increasingly longer periods of time, they just can't reach those lofty heights again.

[Let us measure]

Oh bcass, come 'ere! People call you names, but you're just a misunderstood little boy who knows what he wants, is all. And deep down we all want what you want.

The problem with past 2D Mario games is that they're impossible to judge objectively, so ingrained are they into our collective nostalgic consciousness and inseparable from happy childhood memories. But SMW and SMB3 weren't by any means perfect. Many of 3's levels were bland and way too short, some of the coolest power-ups were only available on one or two levels (Goomba's shoe and the Hammer Bros. suit spring to mind) and some of the world 8 airship levels were infuriating to the degree of making you switch the console off in frustration (much like Canton claims to have done with NSMBWii). SMW had a badly judged difficulty level, being piss-easy throughout 95% of the game until you reach Star Road and the final castle, where again that 'Tubular' level makes you turn the thing off in frustration.

The point is that these two shining examples of Nintendo's past magic would have attracted the same amount of criticism were they to have been released today as NSMBWii has been attracting in this thread. People have been making (seemingly) churlish criticisms about the game such as Mario feeling too heavy, or Mario having a funny run, or what have you, but compared to what? People are asking it be something it's not, namely SMW again, printed on a disc and renamed.

I'm guessing the only way to properly judge a Mario platformer is to look back on it ten years after release. If it still holds up after that time, it's a good 'un. Yoshi's Story suffered similar problems to NSMBWii straight after release - unfavourable comparisons with its prequel. But it's still a really playable game on Virtual Console after all this time, and it seems that criticism at the time of release all centred around the fact that it wasn't in fact Yoshi's Island, and that it was too easy (which again was a misinformed complaint - if anyone can complete the all-melon run through of that game, they deserve to become king of the world).

So tl;dr, any new Nintendo 2D Mario is going to suffer in comparison to it's predecessors, no matter how hard it tries.

[Eats hoops and leaves]

Or: just assume that no game will ever again be as good as Yoshi's Island. Nobody can hope to compete with it. Not even Nintendo Also, the nostalgia stuff.

[Let us measure]

Yeah, I really think nostalgia plays an immeasurably huge part in the judgement of these games. Take Yoshi's Island DS - basically the same game as YI but bigger, better, brighter, with more playable characters and two screens to play on and... not as good.

[Made of Ghosts]

I came to all the 2D games later, after having played Super Mario 64 (my first experience of the series) and in a weird way Super Mario Bros (ie the original) is my favourite. It's got this nice simplicity and clarity to it, and I guess I don't expect too much cos it's so old. Bros 3 is great, but Jesus Christ anyone complaining about the frustrating difficulty of NSMBW can't have played this in a little while. I've still never got past world 3. World I just find incredibly bland. It's like they got carried away with all the new stuff they could do and lost sight of why the game ought to be fun. It's dull and empty and often quite ugly. I 96-exit'd it more out of boredom than anything. Yoshi's Island is better but I actually enjoyed NSMB DS more than any of them, despite all the criticism it gets.

[CS2x]

I know I've said this before and a few people disagreed, but I really don't think it is just nostalgia. At least, I know it isn't for me: I got into gaming relatively late in life and only got a SNES fairly recently, and I was absolutely blown away playing SMW and Yoshi's Island. They've both got wonderful graphics, almost perfect level design all the way through - and really special atmospheres. I've then gone on to get SMW on Virtual Console along with a bunch of other SNES games and I'm amazed to see how much better they seem than most of Nintendo's newer offerings (or most new titles in general). They even look rather lovely on the HD screen (I don't know why this is: maybe it's just a sprite thing.)

The most offensive 2D game I've played recently wasn't the New Super Mario Bros offering on the DS, though (which does come quite close simply for being so very bland in comparison with the older titles.) It's that bloodly Shake the Dimension Wario game on the Wii. I'm not sure what this forum saw in that game: apart from the beautiful animation, I don't think I've played anything so atrocious. It doesn't help I had just gone through some SNES classics, either. They make attempts like this look really, really amateur.

[Made of Ghosts]

Oh god I completely agree. Forget what I said about World, Shake Dimension is a hundred times more half-arsed and boring than that could ever be.

[CS2x]

Oh god I completely agree. Forget what I said about World, Shake Dimension is a hundred times more half-arsed and boring than that could ever be.

I know...

But have you played the Gameboy/Game Boy Colour Wario titles? They're abolustely amazing! Wario Land II for the GBC is a massive, super inventive monster of a platformer. One of the best. On such limited hardware they crafted something that I think any sensible person would admit shits all over the Wii game in all areas bar graphics.

[superpretend]

I think Let's Measure is spot on. Having gone back and played a bit of Mario 3 and Mario World since getting this, I think NSMBW can stand alongside both, I think it's as good as Mario 3, and World probably beats it in terms of sheer number of secrets to unlock.

But you know, every time I play Mario 3 and get the first Racoon leaf, running and hammering the A button, taking to the skies, I'm 9 years old again. I remember watching The Wizard just to see Mario 3 footage and the hype about the game amongst school friends. I can vividly remember the day I got Mario 3, the shop I was in, the bright yellow box in came in... man you can't beat childhood nostalgia.

Of course, if Mario 3 came out today, we'd just constantly bitch about it. I recently rediscovered my NES, still with Mario 3 inside. Plugged it in (it still works!) and the first thing I noticed playing the game was the constant glitching on the right side of the screen and the massive bar of nothing down the left side. You know I never noticed these things as 9 year old.

[Massive Invisible Dog]

I finished it this morning. Well, did the last boss, I wouldn't say I finished it when I seem to have skipped most of the last world by finding the secret level. What a sweet last level.

[Garwoofoo]

Plugged it in (it still works!) and the first thing I noticed playing the game was the constant glitching on the right side of the screen and the massive bar of nothing down the left side. You know I never noticed these things as 9 year old.

You probably never saw them; they'd have been hidden by the massive amounts of overscan you would have had on your old 80s telly.

[superpretend]

You probably never saw them; they'd have been hidden by the massive amounts of overscan you would have had on your old 80s telly.

You're probably right, and I was playing it on a 14" tele back then too.

Anyway, I played this 4 player for the first time tonight, and it wasn't as fun as I thought it was going to be. Coin battle is decent, but after a while, we just switched over to Smash Bros for our Nintendo kick.

I've really enjoyed 2 player Mario sessions though.

[Eats hoops and leaves]

I know...

But have you played the Gameboy/Game Boy Colour Wario titles? They're abolustely amazing! Wario Land II for the GBC is a massive, super inventive monster of a platformer. One of the best. On such limited hardware they crafted something that I think any sensible person would admit shits all over the Wii game in all areas bar graphics.

Wario Land 1 is the best one by far.

[Eats hoops and leaves]

I think Let's Measure is spot on. Having gone back and played a bit of Mario 3 and Mario World since getting this, I think NSMBW can stand alongside both, I think it's as good as Mario 3, and World probably beats it in terms of sheer number of secrets to unlock.

But you know, every time I play Mario 3 and get the first Racoon leaf, running and hammering the A button, taking to the skies, I'm 9 years old again. I remember watching The Wizard just to see Mario 3 footage and the hype about the game amongst school friends. I can vividly remember the day I got Mario 3, the shop I was in, the bright yellow box in came in... man you can't beat childhood nostalgia.

Of course, if Mario 3 came out today, we'd just constantly bitch about it. I recently rediscovered my NES, still with Mario 3 inside. Plugged it in (it still works!) and the first thing I noticed playing the game was the constant glitching on the right side of the screen and the massive bar of nothing down the left side. You know I never noticed these things as 9 year old.

There is no way Mario Bros DS stands alongside those two giants. It's a great game, yes, but those games are just... they are pitched absolutely perfectly. There is so much crammed into them, but it's never overwhelming or messy. They are beautiful in their form and function. Clean, abstract (as somebody else said) and worlds you can... believe in? They seem to be more than games. Expressions of the joy of videogames, or something pretentious. They do more than provide levels for you to get through - you live in them until you've seen everything.

I wish the new Mario platformer levels were spread over one world and split into districts, like in Mario World. I miss that. What Yoshi's Island started is a real shame. I liked the way the secret levels and other features were built into the environment.

[scottcr]

World 2 is brilliant - the mushroom level with the spining cube things and the coins and blocks that dance in time to the music is just... just.....

[Broker]

Wario Land 1 is the best one by far.

This makes me feel genuine joy:

[Made of Ghosts]

I have a soft spot for Mario Land 1 and 2, as well, despite 2's HORRIBLE idea of making you do all the bosses again every time you gameover.

[superpretend]

Super Mario Land is a stone cold classic. Great Over World theme song as well. Plus, it had those plane/submarine levels, they were awesome.

[TheSlugFormerlyKnownAsNap]

Yesterday I played through world 2 and lost only one life. I think I'm improving, finally.

[Jackson]

So, is the general consensus that this game is best suited to "gamers" and won't make a good family game this Christmas?

[vcassano]

It's great for everyone. While it is tough, in multiplayer it is actually pretty difficult to fail and still remains a hell of a lot of fun.

[scottcr]

So, is the general consensus that this game is best suited to "gamers" and won't make a good family game this Christmas?

I'd say as a single player, it's as suitable for families as the original SMB was on the NES... it's easier than that was and millions of kids happily played it and beat it.

[Jackson]

I'd say as a single player, it's as suitable for families as the original SMB was on the NES... it's easier than that was and millions of kids happily played it and beat it.

I was thinking more about the other end of the spectrum, is it suitable for non-gamer parents? My dad is scared to even try Super Mario Galaxy.

[Super Craig]

It can be difficult, but it's nowhere near as bad as something like the Lost Levels. I don't agree that it's easier than the original though.

[HarMGM]

I was thinking more about the other end of the spectrum, is it suitable for non-gamer parents? My dad is scared to even try Super Mario Galaxy.

This one is far more straight forward then Galaxy. If your dad was afraid of Galaxy, he should be able to embrace this one. It can be difficult as Craig said, but it's not impossible.

[Professor Puzzles]

Oof! The world 5 castle just kicked my ass. I lost about 20 lives trying to do that and even resorted to using the Super Guide at one point. The shame!

[scottcr]

I'm on world 3 and have seen the game over screen twice now.

Love it

[gone fishin]

Oh god I completely agree. Forget what I said about World, Shake Dimension is a hundred times more half-arsed and boring than that could ever be.

Why all the hate for Shake?!?!? I think it's a perfect yang game to the "normal" Mario platformer's ying.. in that it's slow, unbelievably hard to actually die and easy to complete the basic game- yet it has quite a bit of depth when trying to get 100%. Oh, and it looks absolutely amazing. Maybe because the gameplay is better suited for a handheld (more chunk sized gaming than playing for hours on end) but I really enjoyed it- and I think it was much better than the latter Wario Lands on the DS.

In a way it reminds me of maybe my favourite Mario platformer, Super Mario Land 2 on the GB. That was similarly slow, and actually quite easy but a real joy to play from start to finish.

But the other day when I was sitting on the bog, reading an old Retro Gamer mag about the history of Donkey Kong, it got me thinking about how great it would be to have a Mario/DK game in a similar static screen sort of way, like the original Donkey Kong. You know, like all the old 8 bit platformers were (Monty Mole,JSW, Technician Ted etc) where you had to collect things on static screens... the remake of DK on the original GB was kind of like that, but the series ended up more like a Lemmings style puzzle game (with those bloody minis) than a collect-em-up. Now WiiWare would be absolutely perfect for a "New Old Donkey Kong Wii"....

[carleton]

But the other day when I was sitting on the bog, reading an old Retro Gamer mag about the history of Donkey Kong, it got me thinking about how great it would be to have a Mario/DK game in a similar static screen sort of way, like the original Donkey Kong. You know, like all the old 8 bit platformers were (Monty Mole,JSW, Technician Ted etc) where you had to collect things on static screens... the remake of DK on the original GB was kind of like that, but the series ended up more like a Lemmings style puzzle game (with those bloody minis) than a collect-em-up. Now WiiWare would be absolutely perfect for a "New Old Donkey Kong Wii"....

Donky Kong '94 on the GB was fantastic, one of my favourite games ever. I was gutted when I bought the DS one and it wasn't just an extension but a Krusty's Fun House knock off. So NODKWii gets a vote from me as well.