New Super Mario Bros. Wii

[Rudderless]

Nintendo Defence Force

See, resorting to pathetic name-calling like that isn't helping your case. No-one's saying the game should be exempt from criticism, but there's a difference between genuinely warranted criticism and the stuff you were coming out with.

It looks and moves identically to the DS one

I don't think you know the meaning of the word 'identically'. It doesn't mean 'similar'.

but that was my opinion before looking at it more in-depth - if anything, I think such a remark didn't go far enough.

So it's even more than completely identical? How does that work?

From the brief videos I've seen, it follows many systems and styles already specified

What does that mean? Specified by what/whom?

it follows the art directions and level design traits

What, all the way through the game? You can extrapolate all that from a brief video of a few stages?

it follows all of the horrible 'safe' elements that NSMB did

Like what, exactly? You'll need to explain this so we know what you mean. I presume you're talking about the penguin suit and propeller suit, neither of which was in NSMB. Or the flying manta rays, perhaps? Or the four players onscreen at the same time?

It still doesn't flow like earlier Mario games

What? How do you know?

They have talent beyond their years

Yeah, NSMB looks like a very 'safe' game, and it's a shame we don't see Nintendo innovating as regularly as it used to - I've said as much in the E3 thread (indeed, I talked about it at quite some length). But the arguments you're using here to back up your point are just mental. Yes, NSMB Wii looks quite a bit like NSMB DS, but it's clearly not using 'identical' assets, and it's far too early to suggest it's a lazy retread when all evidence points to it being a substantially different game.

[Zappster]

You're not allowed to do that. No favouritism allowed! You have to afford other developers the same courtesy.

[Campfire_Burning]

Yeah, because they have a long history of reliably producing very entertaining games, even when they don't use cutting edge tech or cutting edge graphics. Because of their pretty much unique history you can watch a video of a Nintendo game with low tech graphics and be reasonably sure it's going to be a lot of fun.

What's wrong with that?

So you're judging based on what they've done, and not what they're doing? Okay.

[Rygal - Reader of Threads]

It's not "early", it's out for Christmas. The video appears to be pretty much finished, and there has been live playable demoing on the show floor.

Why don't you just not post instead of throwing around snide remarks all the time? My comments have been entirely appropriate, and yours have just been whingey little snipes.

Yeah, but Chistmas is still a bit away, isn't it? 'Appears', yeah, 'appears' but then again you'd know it it's pretty much finished.

You wonder why I don't come here very much, I'll tell you. It's the stuff that people like you post thing that games and games developers fucking owe you.

I'll only give snidey remarks to the inane stupid people that deserve them, mind.

I'll see you after my warning/ban. Maybe.

[Ste Pickford]

So you're judging based on what they've done, and not what they're doing? Okay.

Yeah, if I see a video, I judge it based on what I see in the video combined with what I know about the developer - what they've done in the past.

If I see plain, simple graphics in a video from Nintendo, experience tells me they probably spent a load of time making it play really well. I'm interested.

If I see amazing graphics in a video from Sony, or Lionhead, experience tells me it's all probably a mockup and the end game will be a let down. I remain unconvinced.

So you don't use any of your past experience to help you evaluate videos of new games? Okay.

[Guest WrongBot]

And then you'd all buy R.O.B.

Now you're really onto something- an updated R.O.B for Wii. WrongBot approves!

[Liquid Myth]

See, resorting to pathetic name-calling like that isn't helping your case. No-one's saying the game should be exempt from criticism, but there's a difference between genuinely warranted criticism and the stuff you were coming out with.

I used the term because I was surprised at how many people were not willing to call it out in its similarity, which definitely exists - you have to agree to that, especially since they're still using the NSMB name.

I don't think you know the meaning of the word 'identically'. It doesn't mean 'similar'.

'Similar' comes before 'identical' in the scale of things that share traits. That's why I used the word.

So it's even more than completely identical? How does that work?

It was a joke used to emphasize the relation between the games, don't get hung up on it.

What does that mean? Specified by what/whom?

Specified by the game I'm comparing NSMB Wii to, which is NSMB.

What, all the way through the game? You can extrapolate all that from a brief video of a few stages?

I've created a viewpoint based on what Nintendo has chosen to show so far. I shouldn't have to spend £40 down the line to justify it.

Like what, exactly? You'll need to explain this so we know what you mean. I presume you're talking about the penguin suit and propeller suit, neither of which was in NSMB. Or the flying manta rays, perhaps? Or the four players onscreen at the same time?

I know you're being facetious, but I wasn't talking about any of those. I'm talking about the generally "safe" atmosphere of Mario platform games that someone on these boards called out a while ago, in that the newer games feel much safer than earlier titles, due to the lack of a need for experimentation on behalf of the player.

What? How do you know?

Because I'm psychic. Either that, or I'm drawing conclusions from having played a lot of Nintendo games over the past 16 or so years, and understanding that this game will not differ greatly from more recent efforts, and what I've seen so far doesn't do much to dispell that conclusion.

This isn't much of a point, but I do believe it. I think that Nintendo, like many other experienced Japanese companies, can easily put out what they feel like and have it lapped up by their large fanbase, regardless of whether or not they could be doing more with what they've made; I could say that I was disppointed with MGS4, because there wasn't enough of the content present in the first two acts of the game, though the game could have had more content like that. Or that Sega could make a good 2D Sonic game for PSN and XBLA, but won't for whatever reason.

Yeah, NSMB looks like a very 'safe' game, and it's a shame we don't see Nintendo innovating as regularly as it used to - I've said as much in the E3 thread (indeed, I talked about it at quite some length). But the arguments you're using here to back up your point are just mental. Yes, NSMB Wii looks quite a bit like NSMB DS, but it's clearly not using 'identical' assets, and it's far too early to suggest it's a lazy retread when all evidence points to it being a substantially different game.

I admit that there has been some exaggeration, though not intentionally misleading.

[Campfire_Burning]

So you don't use any of your past experience to help you evaluate videos of new games? Okay.

Of course I do. But I tend to use recent history as a guage, rather than what the team was doing many years ago. New Super Mario Bros. on the Wii looks more like the DS version than Animal Crossing Wii looked like the DS version, and that ended up being terribly similar. In light of that it's a possibility - even a likelihood - that a Nintendo game that looks so much another Nintendo game will, in fact, be very similar to that other game. Because they've done it before.

I don't know if the people in this thread are hopping on the success train or what, but if if the preview of Super Mario Galaxy looked as much like its predecessor as both the new Mario titles look like theirs, I find it hard to believe people would have been so full of praise for it.

[Isaac]

Campfire Burning's post is spot-on in this thread.

Nintendo make great games. They still look to be making great games. But it seems that at this E3 they've lost their spark, at least when it comes to the more traditional titles.

[esar]

Campfire Burning's post is spot-on in this thread.

Nintendo make great games. They still look to be making great games. But it seems that at this E3 they've lost their spark, at least when it comes to the more traditional titles.

Some people are spouting some right old shit in this thread.

[Rudderless]

I used the term because I was surprised at how many people were not willing to call it out in its similarity, which definitely exists - you have to agree to that, especially since they're still using the NSMB name.

Indeed. But no-one would have an issue with your arguments if you were just saying it was similar - because taking out the four-player mode, it is very similar. But you basically said it looks 'identical' to a DS game and reuses all that game's assets, then started making assumptions that it'd essentially be the same game. Which, if you've watched the video on the press site particularly, it clearly isn't.

'Similar' comes before 'identical' in the scale of things that share traits. That's why I used the word.

Yeah, the wrong one. There's a clear difference between the two.

Specified by the game I'm comparing NSMB Wii to, which is NSMB.

Right. It was just a clumsy way of putting it, is all.

I've created a viewpoint based on what Nintendo has chosen to show so far. I shouldn't have to spend £40 down the line to justify it.

No-one's saying you should. But your initial arguments, mainly based on the language you used rather than the underlying point, were a little silly.

I know you're being facetious, but I wasn't talking about any of those. I'm talking about the generally "safe" atmosphere of Mario platform games that someone on these boards called out a while ago, in that the newer games feel much safer than earlier titles, due to the lack of a need for experimentation on behalf of the player.

But you didn't say that. You said 'it follows all the horrible safe aspects of NSMB'. Which isn't really the case even based on what we've seen, let alone the rest of the game we haven't.

Either that, or I'm drawing conclusions from having played a lot of Nintendo games over the past 16 or so years, and understanding that this game will not differ greatly from more recent efforts, and what I've seen so far doesn't do much to dispell that conclusion.

Well, can you explain what you mean by 'it doesn't flow', then? That's what I was getting at. I'm not saying you're wrong on that point, but it's not really clear exactly what you mean by it.

I think that Nintendo, like many other experienced Japanese companies, can easily put out what they feel like and have it lapped up by their large fanbase, regardless of whether or not they could be doing more with what they've made

For one, I'm not sure that's true. Nintendo have had a fair bit of criticism about lacklustre updates of late. I totally agree with you that it's not innovating with software as much as it could do - or indeed it used to. But equally, the points you originally made about this were unfair. And it looks like a lot of fun. Moreover, it's a far cry from the likes of Animal Crossing: Let's Go to the City, which is remarkably similar to its seven-year-old GameCube predecessor - here, we're going from a handheld to a home console game (not everyone has both a DS and a Wii), despite what you say it looks nicer, it's got quite a few new elements, a four-player mode, different levels, and, knowing Nintendo, a few little surprise bonuses.

I admit that there has been some exaggeration, though not intentionally misleading.

Well, it's clearly misled most people in this thread.

[SMD]

Firstly, how the fuck does Super Mario Galaxy 2 look unimaginative?

Secondly, where can I buy Nintendo Defence Force?

[Rudderless]

Campfire Burning's post is spot-on in this thread.

Nintendo make great games. They still look to be making great games. But it seems that at this E3 they've lost their spark, at least when it comes to the more traditional titles.

I agree with your second point, but not the first.

I think part of this is down to the fact that they felt after the backlash to last year's E3 that they HAD to show stuff like they did this year. At the moment with some people Nintendo are damned if they do and damned if they don't. It'd be nice to think that the next 3D Mario title is ground-breaking, epoch-making, era-defining stuff - but then Galaxy 2 isn't necessarily going to stop the one after from being just that, and it's nice to have a sequel to a quite fantastic game less than three years later. What's odd is that certain other franchises can shit out a sequel within a year and get nothing like the same criticism for it. Because they're NOT Nintendo. Its history at times is a bit of a millstone, and at the moment it does seem to be weighing a little heavy.

[Rudderless]

Firstly, how the fuck does Super Mario Galaxy 2 look unimaginative?

It doesn't. It does, however, look quite a lot like the first (from the video, anyway - I imagine there are a whole host of new treats in store. Indeed, I'd be surprised if the Bee suit stayed in the finished game). But to the vast majority of people, that's not such a bad thing.

[scottcr]

I think it'll be 10 years before we see a game as mind-blowingly out-there as Super Mario Galaxy from Nintendo. That's a once in a long generation type game... The fact that we are getting MORE is great. I'd rather have this than have to wait another 9 years before I see another amazing 3D mario game.

[Zappster]

Firstly, how the fuck does Super Mario Galaxy 2 look unimaginative?

Secondly, where can I buy Nintendo Defence Force?

"...because it looks like the first game and they've only added Yoshi", "Galaxy Map Pack", and "Galaxy 1.5" is the general feeling I'm getting from some of the people complaining

[mushashi]

I think it'll be 10 years before we see a game as mind-blowingly out-there as Super Mario Galaxy from Nintendo. That's a once in a long generation type game... The fact that we are getting MORE is great. I'd rather have this than have to wait another 9 years before I see another amazing 3D mario game.

Pffft, 10 years is a walk in the park, it's going to be 19 years since they last bothered to make an amazing 2D Mario game

[scottcr]

"...because it looks like the first game and they've only added Yoshi", "Galaxy Map Pack", and "Galaxy 1.5" is the general feeling I'm getting from some of the people complaining

yeap - it's a continuation of the most amazing game in recent years. This isn't some DLC multiplayer packs, it's a completely new set of galaxies and introduces what looks like *proper* Yoshi use (really underused in SMS). It contains some of the stuff they didn't have time to fit into the initial SMG and some stuff that they've come up with since...

really, SMG was SO good that it deserves this. We won't see another game like SMG(1+2) for *years*

[Bocuma]

"...because it looks like the first game and they've only added Yoshi", "Galaxy Map Pack", and "Galaxy 1.5" is the general feeling I'm getting from some of the people complaining

And yet I guarantee those people are looking forward to things like Modern Warfare 2.

[Rudderless]

And yet I guarantee those people are looking forward to things like Modern Warfare 2.

Bang on.

[Rygal - Reader of Threads]

It's one of those things that always leaves me bewildered - "Jesus, Nintendo just rehashing the same old game over and over...hey check out PGR5, that looks fucking aces!!!"

[SMD]

"...because it looks like the first game and they've only added Yoshi", "Galaxy Map Pack", and "Galaxy 1.5" is the general feeling I'm getting from some of the people complaining

If it were DLC, people would be creaming themselves.

[Daley]

And as for FIFA, man they are ridiculous, they have made over 2000 of them.

[scottcr]

If it were DLC, people would be creaming themselves.

lol - yeap - if it were DLC, priced at 30 quid people would go OMFG THE MOST AMAZE EVER FROM NINTENDO

but they shove it in a box and it's a lazy quick rehash.

FACE

PALM

[superpretend]

Man, we really need to fast forward to the end of the year, because this thread has completely gone to shit.

[Hewson]

It's one of those things that always leaves me bewildered - "Jesus, Nintendo just rehashing the same old game over and over...hey check out PGR5, that looks fucking aces!!!"

Mass Effect 2 is a perfect example - "It's like the first one, but you can now skip the shit conversations like they promised last time!!!"

What's really amazing is that people scream for more and more content on increasingly complex machines and then act astonished when companies have to reuse assets or engines. It's just reality biting.

[Straps]

Watching the video of this made me want to play Smash Bros. again more than anything.

[Campfire_Burning]

And yet I guarantee those people are looking forward to things like Modern Warfare 2.

I bet you're looking forward to the continuing story of Mario's search for the princess. I heard that this time she might be in another castle!

lol - yeap - if it were DLC, priced at 30 quid people would go OMFG THE MOST AMAZE EVER FROM NINTENDO

but they shove it in a box and it's a lazy quick rehash.

£30 for a piece of DLC, eh?

SLOW

CLAP

[mushashi]

Maybe part of the 'backlash' stems from the fact that traditionally Nintendo aren't like other developers, they don't just release iterative sequels to their major selling game series. Now on first impressions, these latest Mario games don't seem to be that different from the last installments, hence a certain disappointment. The thing which used to seperate Nintendo from everyone else seems to be slowly fading away, Wii Fit+ and WSR aren't considered by even Nintendo to be worthy of being called full fledged sequels.

[Rygal - Reader of Threads]

£29.99 maybe but not £30!