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Yet another streaming your game over the net solution


The Liberal Elite
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Also, thinking about feedback, what about force feedback devices or the rumble of the Wiimote etc.?

These things work by giving us tactile feedback on what we do and they live and die by how realistic or immediate they are. If there's a lag introduced into the game update then either: the device will provide feedback out of sync with what we see on the screen (if it's calculated immediately) or there will be a lag between input and feedback (if the device waits for the screen data to be sent back to the user).

Cheers...

The feedback will be delayed like the image. There's no local processing to decide to shake the controller.

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Neuromancer has hit the nail on the head I think. If OnLive (or Gaikai or any other system) really works as advertised they should be letting people test it to destruction, not slinging mud at the scepticism of very technically literate people. The argument they seem to be falling back on is that it has all this support (i.e. distribution rights to a handful of games, bought with sackfuls of VC money), so it's "too big to fail". Like Gizmondo. Like the Titanic.

Even if it did work, the list of things that the model doesn't support is ridiculous. No mods. No alternative control methods. No configuring the game (for PC games). No access to your save files. No access (as far as I'm aware) to multiplayer services like XBL or Steam. So really it's a way to play a tiny subset of games, in artifacty sub-VGA resolutions, with molasses-like controls.

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Neuromancer has hit the nail on the head I think. If OnLive (or Gaikai or any other system) really works as advertised they should be letting people test it to destruction, not slinging mud at the scepticism of very technically literate people.

OnLive is talking a Beta (in the US I assume) starting 'Summer 2009' so we may find out soon enough.

"Slinging mud at technically literate people" is a retarded comment tho - it assumes OnLive aren't technically literate and people who 'think they know it all' are entitled to drone on without anything like actual 'hard experience'.

The doomsayers may all be right - but until it's released their opinions aren't worth a shit really - other than the 'I told you so' factor perhaps...

Maybe it will be sluggish - maybe it won't work for certain types of games - maybe they'll run out of cash and it will never see the light of day - who knows. I personally think it's odd they keep bringing up 'challenging' titles like Crysis but GaiKai's choice of titles lacked 'ambition' to say the least (perhaps that was even the point!?)

Even if it did work, the list of things that the model doesn't support is ridiculous. No mods. No alternative control methods. No configuring the game (for PC games). No access to your save files. No access (as far as I'm aware) to multiplayer services like XBL or Steam. So really it's a way to play a tiny subset of games, in artifacty sub-VGA resolutions, with molasses-like controls.

No mods - 98% of the world don't care

No alt control methods - err controller, keyboard/mouse - anything attached to your PC/laptop in theory - how many do you want?

'Configuring the game' - err what - do you mean "tinkering like a nerd' or even 'cheating' perhaps? ;)

No access to save files - err what?

No access to XBL or Steam - they don't have access to each other either and they're doing fine...

Try harder to disguise your ignorance/dislike of the unknown by all means :ph34r:

p.s. I'm not greatly hopeful that OnLive will be a 'top end PC without the cost' - I'm fairly sure it will have snags which will keep the rabid PC gamers at bay (possibly a good thing in itself - have you SEEN those fuckers??) - I just think a lot of people sitting around on gaming forums saying "this won't work - it's shit" when they've not seen it is a bit sad really.

Everything which brings more people into gaming is good - it keeps developers in business - it keeps new ideas flowing and all that nonsense.

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It's 4am so I'll keep this short.

This solution sucks.

This solution sucky or not is the future of gaming.

Coprporates are still annoyed they started selling us music on media. As soon as they can cram the genie back in the bottle they will.

Jukeboxes for music. Pay TV. Video arcades.

And the best bit is...the consumer buys the hardware to stick in their house.

Buying will disappear. It will all be about subscriptions.

No money? No games.

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Bottom line, it will be shit to anyone with a clue about how gaming works. MMOs and casual games only.

Which don't require high system requirements anyway, because their whole purpose is to reach out to as wide an audience as possible.

I could see this technology being useful as an additional service for MMO's. If WoW created a webpage where anyone with an existing account could log in and play WoW on low settings, by only downloading a 1MB plugin, it would be a useful service for when players are away from their PC's and want to keep guild commitments. The lag might not be great for high level PvP, but if they made it sufficient for raids I could see people using it.

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Quick, John, code a wee app that emulates latency, like the LCD screen lag thing you did.

I had a tinker over the weekend.

http://zee-3.com/lagsim/lagsim.exe

Needs a reasonable PC as it expects to run at 60fps. I'll sort that when I get some free time. I'll try to add some enemies\danger and shooting to make it a bit more interesting.

What's quite interesting that adding lag just sort of gradually makes you worse at the game. Once it's more than a few frames it's like playing drunk. Get up to the 250ms level and it becomes impossible. I think Onlive claim around 80ms.

One of the other ones demo'd recently featured GTAIV being played very badly with around 250ms lag - although the game itself provides more than half of that.

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I had a tinker over the weekend.

http://zee-3.com/lagsim/lagsim.exe

Needs a reasonable PC as it expects to run at 60fps. I'll sort that when I get some free time. I'll try to add some enemies\danger and shooting to make it a bit more interesting.

What's quite interesting that adding lag just sort of gradually makes you worse at the game. Once it's more than a few frames it's like playing drunk. Get up to the 250ms level and it becomes impossible. I think Onlive claim around 80ms.

One of the other ones demo'd recently featured GTAIV being played very badly with around 250ms lag - although the game itself provides more than half of that.

This is good. At least this should help doubters understand what impact latency has on gaming.

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Nice little demo though of how important it is....

I think onlive / Giakai would probably be a good system if (or when) it gets built into Sky / Virgin boxes, or even TVs - to play smaller games like Zuma and pop cap type real casual stuff - or similar to the service provided on some long haul flights.

It's not going to be something that the majority of people on games forums would buy but I imagine that there will certainly be a market for it.

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I think onlive / Giakai would probably be a good system if (or when) it gets built into Sky / Virgin boxes, or even TVs - to play smaller games like Zuma and pop cap type real casual stuff - or similar to the service provided on some long haul flights.

But then it's still far more economical to build the hardware into the box, rather than stream a video feed of it from another box across several miles. Sky already does games on demand, doesn't it?

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But then it's still far more economical to build the hardware into the box, rather than stream a video feed of it from another box across several miles. Sky already does games on demand, doesn't it?

Well I mean a halfway house, better than Zuma and the like, that was a poor example.

Sky and Virgin (iirc) do have games on them but because the box's net connection is so bloody slow, they take an annoying time to load or even view, so a halway solution could work well for those concerned (but not "gamers", I think).

In regards to the 'living room solution' if MS carry on as planned, any streaming service will pale in comparison to one machine that can play DVD's, download movies, go on Twitter / facebook etc and actually have games specifically made for that system which you wouldn't need to worry about lag with.

But maybe a bit of screen tearing, no 60fps and an occasionally RRoD :hat:

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That may not exactly be what theyre aiming for. The idea is dead in the water, they just dont know it yet. Give them a few more tens of millions of dollars pissed away then they might start to get it.

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In a moment of boredom I knocked this up - and then completely forgot to post it :lol:

http://www.theedgeofthevoid.com/latency/

Cursor key left/right move the square - enter a latency into the box to see what affect it has on the control etc. etc.

The 'fps' is really a calculation of how fast your browser can animate the square - it's more 'updates per second' and it's locked under 70 (if you see any more than that, your browser can't count and I'm talking to YOU here Mr Firefox) :(

No 'game' in there ofc. but latencies upto 100ms aren't really THAT noticeable - anything over 150 is really, really noticeable tho and 250 is like playing darts by telephone :(

IF you could keep it under 100 - I don't think it's half the problem some people make it out to be - BUT - keeping it under 100 isn't going to be easy by any means (tho it's entirely possible ofc.).

IIRC my 'real' ping to EU WoW servers was around 80-110ms - but the actual round-trip (which factors-in the time it takes the server to respond as well as the network time) was 150-200ms (and that 50-60ms extra isn't uncommon in online games and won't be included in OnLive's claims ofc.).

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Rock Band is an interesting thing to bring up here - because it has a fairly sizeable 'window of error' for playing but a huge need to keep the game going at a constant speed.

If you need an example of how big it's window for 'missing' a note is - try playing (at least the earlier versions) of Frets of Fire. So "hardcore" were it's early supporters that songs required stupid levels of skill to play - in fact it was impossible to play with some PS2 pad convertors because they added a few 10s of ms of delay to the extent you couldn't hit most notes by anything other than chance!!

Regardless of allowances for error tho (and they are sizeable in most console RB/GH games) the need to ensure the song plays in-time would make it - and any other rhythm-action game tbh - a poor choice for something like this UNLESS it's a lot cleverer than even they are saying...

Rhythm games aren't popular on the PC (OnLive's basic platform in-effect) anyway - something which I've always assumed related to the nightmarish task of making games play pitch-and-time-perfect on a platform where everyone has diff. hardware...

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PC's are perfectly capable of accurate timing.

If anything, a Rhythm Action game would be one of the few games that *could* be made to work - possibly. There's no avatar to move and so long as the latency is a known factor you can pinpoint when the button press occurred and decide if it's correct within a reasonable margin. It would likely need a special version of the game though.

The real problem is to do with fast paced games where you control an avatar directly. The latency translates directly into a delayed reaction which for many games can be the difference between success or failure. With low-ish levels of latency you can train yourself to think ahead a bit but even that changes the experience quite significantly - the game is more sluggish and a lot harder.

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Hi everyone,

Here is a question for you. Would you actually look to buy this if it was bundled into a set top box, of which you would recieve a guaranteed pipe to enable you to play games at a high spec position, and/or stream movies at HD standard?

What would interest you in the price point for this. Would you prefer individual transactions for games/movies, or maybe a subscription price structure which would enable you to play any games on the server for a Gold, Silver or Bronze type service.

I appreciate its a big question, and I would appreciate if you could let me know. PM's welcome on this, and I dont want to say much more in an open forum.

Thanks

Alan

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Here is a question for you. Would you actually look to buy this if it was bundled into a set top box, of which you would recieve a guaranteed pipe to enable you to play games at a high spec position, and/or stream movies at HD standard?

What does "high spec position" mean?

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I had a tinker over the weekend.

http://zee-3.com/lagsim/lagsim.exe

Needs a reasonable PC as it expects to run at 60fps. I'll sort that when I get some free time. I'll try to add some enemies\danger and shooting to make it a bit more interesting.

What's quite interesting that adding lag just sort of gradually makes you worse at the game. Once it's more than a few frames it's like playing drunk. Get up to the 250ms level and it becomes impossible. I think Onlive claim around 80ms.

One of the other ones demo'd recently featured GTAIV being played very badly with around 250ms lag - although the game itself provides more than half of that.

Added some proto-type baddies last night. Still no danger or bullets. I'll try to sort that tonight if I get some free time.

http://zee-3.com/lagsim/lagsim.exe

I'm wondering if we could use this to get some hard data. Measure players success rate (score/collision avoidance) against the lag setting. Although it would require players to voluntarily play at higher settings. Or maybe I make it random and fixed?

If the game ever becomes interesting enough for people to play it for fun we might end up with quite a large sample and a solid idea of how lag affects the difficulty of fast games.

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Hi everyone,

Here is a question for you. Would you actually look to buy this if it was bundled into a set top box, of which you would recieve a guaranteed pipe to enable you to play games at a high spec position, and/or stream movies at HD standard?

What would interest you in the price point for this. Would you prefer individual transactions for games/movies, or maybe a subscription price structure which would enable you to play any games on the server for a Gold, Silver or Bronze type service.

I appreciate its a big question, and I would appreciate if you could let me know. PM's welcome on this, and I dont want to say much more in an open forum.

Thanks

Alan

Dear Alan,

Would this set-top box have the cloud games stuff for free or would it cost more? How much more?

For free, sure I'd have it. spending money ...nope.

Your forever my sweet,

Andy

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Added some proto-type baddies last night. Still no danger or bullets. I'll try to sort that tonight if I get some free time.

http://zee-3.com/lagsim/lagsim.exe

I'm wondering if we could use this to get some hard data. Measure players success rate (score/collision avoidance) against the lag setting. Although it would require players to voluntarily play at higher settings. Or maybe I make it random and fixed?

If the game ever becomes interesting enough for people to play it for fun we might end up with quite a large sample and a solid idea of how lag affects the difficulty of fast games.

So far I'm finding that I adjust to it quite well actually, I've pushed it up to 250 ms maybe, I think that with a lot of experience of games with varying 'sluggishness' my brain can switch over to thinking ahead quite quickly, though there is still a noticable difference and I'll fly in quite a weird pattern compared to no lag. Kinda wondering why I have so much trouble with lag in Guitar Hero etc. then, I guess there it's the fact that I tend to rely more on the sound and play to the rhythm, not really looking at the notes when they're right at the point you're supposed to hit them, whereas some people are watching all the way to the bottom and so rely on the visuals more than the sound, which is how the japanese beatmania etc. seem to work.

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