Is it a major design flaw that the Wii doesn't have a C-stick/Right Analogue?

[divine visitor]

I just finished MadWorld on Wii, and really enjoyed it. Apart from the repetitiveness my only other major complaint with the game would be the camera, which is really terrible. And it kinda got me to thinking: Is it a major design flaw that the Wii doesn't have a C-stick/Right Analogue?

The more I think about it, No More Heroes had a pretty bad camera problem too, Zelda on Wii lacks the camera controls of the GameCube version, and the only game I've played that I think got it right so far is Mario Galaxy, which mostly done away with the large open environments from Sunshine in favour of spheres and smaller, more tightly designed environments that don't really need much camera movement.

Admittedly I haven't played all that many 3rd person action games on Wii so I'd be interested to hear what other people have to say. How do other games - particularly multiplatform ones like Okami and Tomb Raider - hold up on Wii? How do they handle the lack of a camera control stick and does it work?

[Corleth the Fey]

Yes the Wii does miss them. But camera controls are an extra complication that the Wii's 'blue ocean' audience would struggle with - thus there is none.

[Sprite Machine]

Is it a design flaw of the machine that it doesn't support what the software wants to do, or is it a design flaw of the software that it tries to do something the hardware doesn't do?

[Not Thread Owner]

No, since none of the games for it require it.

[Eighthours]

Well, the bodge of having camera controls on the Wiimote's dpad (for games that use the nunchuk) usually works okay.

[MK-1601]

No, seeing as the pointer replicates the functionality, except better.

It's not the hardware's fault if not all developers use it properly.

[Majora]

The button design is probably perfect for Nintendo's new audience but in a game like, say, Metroid Prime 3 I found the button layout a pain and the whole interface was more cumbersome.

[vcassano]

The only game it is really an issue in is Twilight Princess, though it wasn't a huge problem as I use the first person view alot to get a better view of events anyway.

[divine visitor]

Well, the bodge of having camera controls on the Wiimote's dpad (for games that use the nunchuk) usually works okay.

Yeah that seems to work in the way Mario 64 used the C-buttons, which is okay I guess, but kinda clumsy and a bit of a step backwards, especially when the Wii Remote is meant to represent a progression in the way we interact with games.

Is it fair to say that it's completely the developer's fault and not the hardware? Nintendo themselves established the camera control with Mario 64, and then to take away a convention that clearly works without regard for the way most games are developed, and without establishing a better alternative seems a bit unfair to me. I dunno.

Personally I liked the controls for Metroid Prime 3 a lot, although it could be because I didn't really play the first two games and so didn't have to re-learn the controls. I'm not sure a pointer-controlled camera would work for every game though.

[futureshock]

Of course taking away the complicated camera controls was a good move. The whole console is about simplicity, and if a developer hasn't figured that out by now then tough luck on them.

[kensei]

Is it fair to say that it's completely the developer's fault and not the hardware? Nintendo themselves established the camera control with Mario 64, and then to take away a convention that clearly works without regard for the way most games are developed, and without establishing a better alternative seems a bit unfair to me. I dunno.

Nintendo never liked Mario 64's camera system. Hence Galaxy, which solves the problem with sphericalness.

And to the MP3 complaints above: you don't need a camera in Metroid Prime, it's an FPS and you have a blimmin' pointer.

[Venice Cull]

No, seeing as the pointer replicates the functionality, except better.

Just like in Twilight Princess where they had to remove camera functionality altogether?

[AK Bell]

Would you say it's a mistake that the DS doesn't have a camera stick? Of course not.

I consider the Wii as the same. It's a different beast altogether and should therefore have different solutions.

[dam_aks]

The whole point of the machine is the remote.

To implement another analogue stick extra to the one on the nunchuk would be a complicated task. The Wii isn't about complicated tasks. So no. It isn't a design flaw.

In short. The game is flawed, it isn't built around the controller functionality well enough.

[MK-1601]

Just like in Twilight Princess where they had to remove camera functionality altogether?

I never played it on the GC, and didn't notice the omission on the Wii.

Going back to SM64 and (especially) Sunshine, having to adjust the camera all the time feels a bit bodge-y, as people have said.

[divine visitor]

Would you say it's a mistake that the DS doesn't have a camera stick? Of course not.

I consider the Wii as the same. It's a different beast altogether and should therefore have different solutions.

I agree completely, but I think Nintendo themselves have yet to show developers a solution - Zelda has no camera control at all, and Mario Galaxy sidesteps the issue by changing the nature of the 3D environment instead.

[AK Bell]

A lot of the complaints in the reviews for Tak were that the camera couldn't be changed. I thought our solution of spending lots of dev time making sure the camera is in the right place (pretty much) all the time was a fair one for a kids Wii game that shouldn't be overcomplicated. But nooooo, reviewers aren't happy having a perfect view when a feature seems missing.

EDIT: I bet Mario wouldn't have got that shit if they did it

[Venice Cull]

I never played it on the GC, and didn't notice the omission on the Wii.

Goal post shifting and irrelevant - you said the Pointer "replicates camera functionality except better". Yet Nintendo had to remove it from Twilight Princess to address the shortcomings addressed by the original poster.

Wether it needed it or not (it didn't) is irrelevant against your original claim (now your shifted argument appears be "games don't need cameras").

[vcassano]

Goal post shifting and irrelevant - you said the Pointer "replicates camera functionality except better". Yet Nintendo had to remove it from Twilight Princess to address the shortcomings addressed by the original poster.

Wether it needed it or not (it didn't) is irrelevant against your original claim (now your shifted argument appears be "games don't need cameras").

Yes Twilight Princess was a little awkward without the second stick but you have to remember it wasn't designed with the wiimote in mind.

[MK-1601]

Goal post shifting and irrelevant - you said the Pointer "replicates camera functionality except better". Yet Nintendo had to remove it from Twilight Princess to address the shortcomings addressed by the original poster.

Like I said, "It's not the hardware's fault if not all developers use it properly."

[bigbrick]

is it a major design flaw that the 360 doesn't have pointer input?

[Stolly]

is it a major design flaw that the 360 doesn't have pointer input?

Good point well made.

All the same the wii is a console sold on the wii mote and more latterly the balance board. I doubt that any mainstream game would be developed for it utilising the proper wii pad or cube pad, which to my mind would be ideal controller for driving games and third person action adventures. Driving games using the wii mote are forced to have an arcade driving model and lets face it Twilight Princess and Mario Galaxy didn't need to be wii mote controlled. In some respects the wii mote is the wii's achilles heel.

[scottcr]

Nonsense.

A game like wii sports resort or grand slam tennis or the upcoming red steel 2 are only possible by using the wii mote. The wii isn't host to games that are ten a penny on the 360.

Big wow. Vive la difference.

[Super Craig]

Good point well made.

All the same the wii is a console sold on the wii mote and more latterly the balance board. I doubt that any mainstream game would be developed for it utilising the proper wii pad or cube pad, which to my mind would be ideal controller for driving games and third person action adventures. Driving games using the wii mote are forced to have an arcade driving model and lets face it Twilight Princess and Mario Galaxy didn't need to be wii mote controlled. In some respects the wii mote is the wii's achilles heel.

Just as well you can use the Nunchuk as well, isn't it?

[Stolly]

Just as well you can use the Nunchuk as well, isn't it?

I'm only going from the 'driving' games I have on the wii. Using the wii mote for excite trucks and mario kart was absolutely fine for those games. The nunchuck option for MK is fine too but, regardless of that, neither are probably as easy and natural as a normal pad would be. The 'driving' model in SSX Blur for the wii made brilliant use of the nunchuck but its not like that control method particularly sold that game did it?

If all wii owners also owned a game pad as well as a wii mote, do you think that driving games would natural be made around the wii mote? Or third person action games?

[TheSlugFormerlyKnownAsNap]

Sometimes it can be irritating, but games like Boom Blox show that alternative camera controls (combine + pointer) can work rather well.

[Sprite Machine]

Driving games using the wii mote are forced to have an arcade driving model

Um, why?

[scottcr]

I'm only going from the 'driving' games I have on the wii. Using the wii mote for excite trucks and mario kart was absolutely fine for those games. The nunchuck option for MK is fine too but, regardless of that, neither are probably as easy and natural as a normal pad would be. The 'driving' model in SSX Blur for the wii made brilliant use of the nunchuck but its not like that control method particularly sold that game did it?

If all wii owners also owned a game pad as well as a wii mote, do you think that driving games would natural be made around the wii mote? Or third person action games?

bet your pumped for natal.

The wiimote isn't the reason that the wii isn't host to snooze racers

[Stolly]

Um, why?

Think about it. You'll get there in the end

[Sprite Machine]

Think about it. You'll get there in the end

If I didn't already think about it, I wouldn't have questioned you. Do elaborate.