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No Russian...


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You don’t see anyone in The Dark Knight or Die Hard killing scores of civilians, en masse; a plane gets crashed in Die Hard 2, but they don’t graphically show every single passenger being burned to death. I can’t think of any films off the top of my head that show indiscriminate slaughter of civilians in the same way as MW2; they must kill at least fifty people, on screen, including people who are wounded or trying to surrender.

Are there any mainstream films that do this?

The closest thing is probably Rambo, which is the only film I can think of that contains an entire "action scene" that is just civilians being blown up and bayonetted (by the bad guys, of course).

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I'd like to think that Infinity Ward attempted something interesting and thought-provoking here, but the rest of the plot and that 'FAGS' video pretty much prove it's there for shock value, and shock value alone.

It's not completely pointless, because it essentially sets up the main plot thread, but I do think it could have been handled better. It's puerile, really. Anyone who thinks games should be doing more things like this needs their head looking at.

This. I think it would have been better as a level like the COD4 opening titles.

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So the same thing done in a way that appeals aesthetically to your taste is fine? When it's still exactly the same scenario?

I didn't really say that. I mean that the way you manage the scenario can make something more interesting artistically.

Walking into a room and gunning down civilians like that is just plain lazy... When you add in the fact it's fairly extrme content it's clearly just there for shock value and to appeal to a certain audience rather than on any form of artistic merit.

I think that is a shame on a game that is so hyped and expensive. But hey, I don't like FPS anyway.

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Thematically, 'No Russian' is no worse than some of the atrocities I commited whilst playing Syndicate when I was 11.

Thematically it's far worse because it's intentionally evoking a whole series of recent terrorist attacks involving the indiscriminate slaughter of innocents in a way that Syndicate wasn't.

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First go I tried to kill the terrorists directly. Then I tried to do a bumbling "accidental" grenade drop but no dice. So then I just skulked at the back acting nonchalant like I was just looking for the nearest Pret. After a while I started to feel like the other terrorists were judging me for not pulling my weight or joining in. Eventually the weight of the peer pressure kicked in and I lobbed a grenade into a pack of whimpering tourists just so I'd fit in with the others.

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It felt kinda pointless plot-wise, or maybe I wasn't following it enough. I didn't shoot until the cops arrived, but then they were "good" so I might as well have from the start. Then the plot went on and it didn't really seem to matter much. Maybe it's supposed to question your view of traditional Good vs Bad characters but the rest of the game was just about killing everyone no matter what, so why not just have a cut-scene.

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I showed the level to a friend who used to be in the special forces. He mentioned that this sort of thing happens alot in real life, but is rarely covered by the media. If this is true, I applaude the bravery of IW for raising the profile of this unsettling issue.

Yeah, hundreds of people get slaughtered in Airport terminals every 6 months or so. This is why they keep adding new terminals, they wouldn't usually need them if it wasn't for all the unreported dead bodies. ;)

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I just played this level just now.

In all honesty it made me feel kind of sick. Not in a daily mail kind of way, but I felt utter guilt at being part of it all. Before engaging in any debate of morality or how tasteless it might be or not be, or the bad things it could do for the "image" of games- I was impressed just by how it provoked a reaction from me.

It reminded me of all those movies or tv shows where you have a "good" guy undercover and he's put in a terrible situation where he has to do something bad to keep his cover. Due to the usual hollywood/mass market effect usually there is some get out clause at the last second to prevent the hero becoming a mass murderer or bad guy. But here it totally flipped me out, at first I thought we were going to keep hostages (I avoided all footages and details of the scene) and then the level goes on to shooting them to make a point to the authorities or something. But starting the level and just seeing the terrorists coldly open fire and walk forward like terminators. Jesus christ.

I couldn't bring myself to shoot any civlians deliberately, I kept deliberately missing or being completely inaccurate. They would die anyway from the other guys, which honestly ended up feeling nearly as bad as if I was shooting them myself.

When the swat team like dudes came, necessity kicked in and I did what I had to do.

Either way, I think I'm glad it was in there, just for having experienced the feeling of that guilt pretty present in my gut from a videogame.

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Thematically it's far worse because it's intentionally evoking a whole series of recent terrorist attacks involving the indiscriminate slaughter of innocents in a way that Syndicate wasn't.

Syndicate boiled down to a series of violent manuevers by a shady non-goverment organisation, much like the terrorist organisations on Modern Warfare. Surprisingly, the violence in Syndicate is all about money, much like the No Russian. The only difference is that in No Russian my clearly stated objective is to kill by following the lead of whats-his-face, whilst in Syndicate, I burned people want watched them stumble around merely as an entertaining aside.

Syndicate is worse than this. I don't see why there's fuss.

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Why do people keep praising this for being thought provoking or guilt inducing (in a good way) as if infinity ward put it in there to achieve just that. They put it in the get some cheap, hopefully outrage driven, publicity. End of.

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I just played this level just now.

In all honesty it made me feel kind of sick. Not in a daily mail kind of way, but I felt utter guilt at being part of it all. Before engaging in any debate of morality or how tasteless it might be or not be, or the bad things it could do for the "image" of games- I was impressed just by how it provoked a reaction from me.

It reminded me of all those movies or tv shows where you have a "good" guy undercover and he's put in a terrible situation where he has to do something bad to keep his cover. Due to the usual hollywood/mass market effect usually there is some get out clause at the last second to prevent the hero becoming a mass murderer or bad guy. But here it totally flipped me out, at first I thought we were going to keep hostages (I avoided all footages and details of the scene) and then the level goes on to shooting them to make a point to the authorities or something. But starting the level and just seeing the terrorists coldly open fire and walk forward like terminators. Jesus christ.

I couldn't bring myself to shoot any civlians deliberately, I kept deliberately missing or being completely inaccurate. They would die anyway from the other guys, which honestly ended up feeling nearly as bad as if I was shooting them myself.

When the swat team like dudes came, necessity kicked in and I did what I had to do.

Either way, I think I'm glad it was in there, just for having experienced the feeling of that guilt pretty present in my gut from a videogame.

Yeah, this sums it up for me too. I do think it's tasteless, but I did like that it inspired a feeling of genuine guilt. I've not had that since I accidentally killed a Hong Kong cop whilst playing as a 'good' JC Denton in Deux Ex.

I mean, a film just can't inspire the same reaction (unless it's the kind of helpless guilt you feel for not being more of an anti-war protester or something). You can't feel guilty for anything that happens in a film because it's entirely passive, whereas stuff like this gives you some control.

It's like the latest Rambo film - fairly dumb and tasteless, but it did provoke a chin-stroking reaction.

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I dont get why people think IW put the level in for publicity. They hype about the game was so huge such publicity was not really required. I think they did indeed attempt to be thought provoking in the levels inclusion. Whether they achieved that is another matter but I really dont think the publicity argument holds much water.

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I showed the level to a friend who used to be in the special forces. He mentioned that this sort of thing happens alot in real life, but is rarely covered by the media. If this is true, I applaude the bravery of IW for raising the profile of this unsettling issue.

worst my friends in the special forces post ever.

BandwagonPIC1.jpg

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I dont get why people think IW put the level in for publicity. They hype about the game was so huge such publicity was not really required. I think they did indeed attempt to be thought provoking in the levels inclusion. Whether they achieved that is another matter but I really dont think the publicity argument holds much water.

I don't buy it either. Sure, that they were aware and maybe anticipated some contraversey around the issue, but this has been the most anticipated game over the last year or two. I can tell from playing COD4 and what i've played for this, IW, for better or worse try and make a very visceral first person experience of what the game throws at you. To me its pretty obvious they put this in there to really make you feel the difference between one group and the other that you play. It's no accident that the mission after has civilians running around that you're ordered to avoid harming.

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I see this level was put in for plot progression purposes only. Maybe when it was done, Acti looked at it and said, "Wouldn't this be great if we 'leaked' a video out of this level with no surrounding story whatsoever and watch the Daily Mail masses implode?!" Which is exactly what happened. I don't think it was meant to be thought provoking, you see this thing happen all the time in movies where undercover agents have to do something morally objectable to stay undercover.* I also don't think it was, initially, meant for publicity purposes. I think it was a clever plotline to develop a story.

All it does is give a reason for Russian invading the US

*

Don't ask me to name any you pedantic twats!

;)

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I went media blackout on MW2, so didnt even know there was anything shocking, until the warning on boot up. I figured it was just something like in MW1, maybe the fact I had no idea what to expect made it all the more shocking?

It was a million miles from real, but didnt feel any more comfortable doing/seeing it.

Yeah, I'm not knocking it. It seemed a million miles from real to me though, that's why your reaction surprises me. I was disappointed, maybe I wanted to feel a bit like you did.

I kept away from the footage and just heard it was set in an airport or something. I was expecting a massive bomb, dead kids, bloody aftermath. I got cartoon shooting.

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