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Which formats have you yarred  

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:omg:

Not usre this condones stealing the games tbh, though it does annoy the hell out of me that we have to wait months for it to be translated into all the other European languages. We should be part of the same region as america.

We weren't the same TV standard, so conversion was a lot more than just adding in Johnny Foreign Speak.

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We weren't the same TV standard, so conversion was a lot more than just adding in Johnny Foreign Speak.

Past tense is appropriate though, NTSC and PAL don't really mean anything anymore. When they chose the regions for this console generation and BDR regions we should have been with america

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The only thing that bothers me about this is that if I finally get a unified online identity for each service will what I buy remain mine & i'll be able to use it across all future devices?

Or to put it another way, if I have to buy Super Mario Bros again on the Wii2 will i finally own it for good?

I suspect no, you'll have just paid for a license to use on that specific platform/device, please pay again if they decide to make it available on other systems in the future :lol:

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I expect this has already been said many times but I checked "I don't yarr" because I haven't on any of the consoles listed. I have in the past on other platforms, most recently being the mega cd. I don't really see a reason to yarr on current platforms.

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I put PC down, mainly because I had a PC when I was a poor student, and most likely had a hooky version of Tomb Raider on it, perhaps Half Life. That said, we're talking 13 year ago. Back when I was a kid, I had a Spectrum with plenty of C90s (but I bought plenty of games too), and later an Amiga with plenty of playground swapped 3.5'' floppies. But on all the consoles listed I've never pirated a game, nor on the PC in recent history (although I haven't owned one in 5 years).

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:P

Not usre this condones stealing the games tbh, though it does annoy the hell out of me that we have to wait months for it to be translated into all the other European languages. We should be part of the same region as america.

Which would be a logistical nightmare. european releases are co-ordinated in order to release across all of europe, typically with only one version of the disc. We aren't going to get split releases because it's not practical for publishers

Past tense is appropriate though, NTSC and PAL don't really mean anything anymore. When they chose the regions for this console generation and BDR regions we should have been with america

i think you've missed the point of region locking, they don't want us buying american blu-rays so they can sell them to us at a higher price locally. being the same region would screw that up. Additionally licenses and ownership of titles is often different between us and the yanks, which is why some Region A bd's are region locked and others aren't - even from the same studios

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I have pirated spectrum games as a child mainly through having absolutely no pocket money and a couple of Atari ST games too.

As an adult and an owner of my own games company I refrain from piracy as much as possible (explanation coming up).

Piracy and me:

1) PSP

I have installed cracked firmware in the past on my PSP so I can i) play games I own without having to carry slow and bulky UMDS and ii) so I can play FFVII on it before you could buy it on PSN (I own the PS1 discs so don't really feel guilty about that and I used them to create the PSP version).

I am no longer running custom firmware because I bought Patapon 2 digital version and could not play it as (at the time) the custom firmware was not concurrent with what Patapon 2 needed. I have since paid for FFVII too (although having to start my save again is a little off putting). I have also recently upgraded to a PSP GO and am selling all my old PSP UMDs on ebay because i) I hardly ever played them before and ii) I want to upgrade the quality ones to digital copies (Patapon 1, Locoroco, Daxter, Street Fighter etc). I have made enough money on selling each UMD version to pretty much cover the upgrade so don't feel that out of pocket.

2) PS3

I am using a swap disc to play FFXII which I ripped onto my own memory stick. I own a Japanese PS3 and various PAL, US and JP games for PS1 and PS2 and if Sony can't be arsed to turn off the region protection I'm not buying them again. I realise I could have bought a PAL PS3 however at the time they were not out and I wasn't sure what was going to happen to the BC chip in them

3) DS

I have used an R4 in the past to try DS games I have never bought. However I deleted them mainly because i) I never played them and ii) I didn't buy them in the first place because I was not that excited by them.

4) TV, Films and Music

I pirate TV at the moment mainly because it is not available to download in Australia or UK via iTunes (or similar) in HD. When that changes the TV companies have my money. I do not pirate films because I love the experience of going to the cinema too much (my partner and I tend to go at least twice a month). Music I only pirate if I have owned the CD before or want to complete a collection of an artists and have no idea if their recent/old stuff is any good (I owned a lot of Prince back catalogue and recently downloaded his new stuff to see if his modern music was any good).

My general thoughts about piracy

For me other than TV I generally don't bother pirating stuff mainly because I find that I don't get excited about it as much. The whole build up to a new game/film/album, the pre-ordering and the purchase are all part of the excitement as is the tension of opening it, putting it in the disc tray/starting it up and then seeing if it is any good. That intrinsic link between purchase and use have built up a pavlovian response in me of excitement and anticipation. Going online and downloading a bargain buckets worth of stuff leaves me feeling empty and emotionless, I have no investment or care in the item.

How piracy effects me

As a small games company we depend on people like yourselves purchases to put bread and butter on the table. Most of you go out to work every day and get paid for doing something. We get paid for making games and selling them to people like you. If no one buys it we are out of a job, much like if no one buys the trainers your company makes you will be out of a job. Our hope is that firstly we provide something compelling enough that you decide to invest time and money in it and secondly if you like it you tell your friends about it.

To put it in perspective you pay about £5 for our software which is about the price of a sandwich in many places in the UK (or at least lunch). From that £5 we get @£3.25 back. So every time you spend a lunchtimes amount on our product we still cannot buy ourselves lunch. We need just under two of you to spend your lunch money on our games to be able to eat ourselves. We also have to generate enough money to pay for the development hardware, office space electricity etc.

I have put my entire life savings into our business. I have no additional investors or sources of income. I am fortunate in that my other half works and is happy to pay for our home life and I am also fortunate that our games, so far, have all broken even. However for a company like us that is very, very hard work. I realise that not everyone in the world can afford to purchase everything they use/eat/wear. However I don't think anyone who pirates games on a regular basis walks into the supermarket and regularly steals food. However next time you pirate a game I would ask you to think about if you are really sticking the big corporation or starving a developer and his/her family?

-EDIT stupid emoticons

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Don't buy that argument, and I think selecting a little list of labels for a person is the easiest way of justifying an action that is patently wrong. No matter what warm and cuddly justification label you want to select for yourself or others, the fact remains that ALL people who pirate do so because they don't want to spend money or do not have sufficient self-control to wait for something. There is no barrier to the acquisition of games beyond money and time. If I want to play obscure PS2 NTSC-J games, there is a morally sound route for me to do so. It may be expensive, it might take a while to organise but it exists. Then the question turns to the fact that if you can't afford something, you shouldn't buy it, and if you can't wait, then perhaps you should be treated like the six year old on Christmas Eve you appear to be.

Who's justifying anything? Nice self-righteousness.

I think most teenagers interested in a thing will try to consume more of it than they have means to provide. I genuinely wonder whether people my age would have the same gaming literacy now if they hadn't had access to basically everything on the MD and SNES, and a diverse (but by no means complete) cross-section of stuff on DOS. In fact, I know people (industry people even, zomg) who only played a handful of legit Amiga games (no consoles, PC, imports at all at the time), who really struggle with games that don't go in for handholding.

But game prices were firmly in the luxury category back then, even if you did have an income. You still see formats get completely blown open by piracy (PS1, DC, Xbox1, DS, PSP), but I don't take part directly in this any more. Oddly, I've barely touched the DS because legit games seem so expensive, but getting an R4 seems hugely immoral. Whereas cheap WiiWare and PC downloadable stuff I buy loads of. Maybe the DSi isn't as stupid an idea as people think.

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I have played copied games for my US PSP, mostly for games I already owned as it improved load times, also more sturdy than those UMD discs, which on occasion split :lol:

I played pirate games for my C64, Amiga and Dreamcast, but recall having simply stacks of tapes then discs after discs of games I rarely played

I haven't pirated games on any other formats this gen.

So the likes of my (and my daughters ) DS play original games only.

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I play my 360 on live so it'll never get flashed, but 99% of the games I do buy or either from on here, or pre-owned so isn't that just as bad as pirating?

And when it comes to the wii and the DS I must admit to downloading most of my games for them, just because I can get them early, and if I paid for some of the wii stuff I'd be really miffed. Shit on a stick, most of it. Also, it's just so easy to do these days. Finding ROMS is just too easy, and I can't believe that the companies don't crack down on these big sites hosting the ROMS.

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but 99% of the games I do buy or either from on here, or pre-owned so isn't that just as bad as pirating?

Depends entirely on your definition of 'bad'.

If you restrict yourself to bad being "breaking the law" then no - it's not even remotely bad because selling games you're done with/buying pre-owned games from people/shops is perfectly legal ofc.

If you have some personal morality about the whole 'rewarding the creator' thing then that's peachy but it's your choice and in many ways it's a bit bizarre.

The very idea that a game should somehow be un-resaleable is slightly odd. No-one complains when people resell fridges or vacuum cleaners or cars, despite the fact there are clearly people working in factories who lose out by you not buying a new one!?!?

If pre-owned games are such a problem for creators/developers than I think it's upto them to find a 'business' solution to that and not demand legislation to protect them from their inability to make a better deal for themselves.

The ability to monetise games after initial purchase has been around for a while and grows everyday too - so overall I have little or no sympathy for this "I only buy new because it supports the industry" nonsense because it makes no sense to me whatsoever.

Even if you were to accept it as an issue tho - people who take this stance fundamentally don't understand what's going on anyway - it's fairly easy to show that pre-owned does no more harm then any other form of discounting and may even support the industry as a whole!!

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The very idea that a game should somehow be un-resaleable is slightly odd. No-one complains when people resell fridges or vacuum cleaners or cars, despite the fact there are clearly people working in factories who lose out by you not buying a new one!?!?

You don't find shops devoted to the sale of second-hand fridges or vacuum cleaners.

Cars consume consumables and servicing, and thus support the wider car making industry (including suppliers to the car manufacturers), far more than the resale of games does.

Regardless, pricing is eventually about perceived value*: the biggest joke I've seen recently was the Edge article about how publishers should allow the second-hand resale of their digitally delivered games via Live/PSN, which would destroy said value in a single stroke.

* Hence the fact that second hand copies of CoD:MW held their value for years.

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You don't find shops devoted to the sale of second-hand fridges or vacuum cleaners.

err - yes you do - in fact I can think of 4-5 (off the top of my head) shops which specialise in pre-owned/refurbed cookers, fridges, vacuums and the like...

and you don't get shops which 'specialise' in pre-owned games - most, if not all, stock new ones too!!

The whole "pre-owned is wrong" thing is just daft - what do you think the people who trade-in spend the trade-in money on exactly (clue: it's not - always - coke and hookers).

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Also to the people saying that piracy and second hand sales are the 'same thing' because developers get neither here are my thoughts.

1) Selling a copy second hand is only one copy where as piracy takes one bought copy and disseminates it to anyone

2) For most industries second hand goods are not sold along side new and this I think is the crucial thing.

There exists a second hand market for almost everything in the world however few shops I know sell new and second hand books together; new and second hand games together; new or second hand clothes. Most sell one or the other. The reason for this is either one of: realising you don't bite the hand that feeds you, brand perception (would you go into Gucci to buy their clothes if they were also selling second hand versions of the same clothes?), or market control (manufacturers have an either agreed or told retailers they get no product if they sell second hand).

The second hand market for any industry represents sales which they get no profit from. However second hand sales also represent a way for people who are 'poorer' to become familiar with a brand and therefore build up good will. The second hand trade of most goods is, I imagine, well below 25% of the actual new sales of said item. With video games this does not apply. EB and their like clearly don't care about pissing off the manufacturers, brand perception or developing gaming as a brand they are only interested in making as much profit as possible. Now obviously any business should be concerned about making profits, however I think that EB are taking a very short termist approach to this.

If EB et al keep pushing second hand content and dressing returns up as new content they are only to blame for pushing us quicker to a DL only model. I imagine there are very good reasons why Borders don't and presumably never will stock second hand books or HMV don't stock second hand CD and DVDs. Clearly someone in the games industry dropped the ball on this. When EB first started selling second hand products I imagine the games industry thought well they are helping people who can't afford it come to our hobby. Now though, with no controls in place, EB prioritises selling second hand over new because they make much more money from second hand than they do new.

Personally I think it is about time the industry said fine if you want to sell second hand do so but you will not get any new products to sell. Currently all they are doing is biting the hand that feeds them IMO.

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Technically, my support for the pre-owned market (I'm a big trader-in and 2nd-hand buyer) is harming game development more than my downloading the odd DS/PSP rom - but preowned isn't illegal and so nobody calls me a name because of it (not that I give 2 shits what people call me!!)

Except that really isn't true, is it, and it's one of the rubbish-arguments people use to justify why piracy isn't such a big deal.

By paying money for a pre-owned game you are supporting retail. And by supporting retail they will continue to place orders for new games with distributors (because they make a profit overall across their business) and want nice shiny, new titles that they can also then sell-on many times via the pre-owned market once they've made the first sale. Pre-owned may not directly make publishers money, no, but then they aren't the only part of the industry.

Do you think that films would be made on the same scale if cinemas didn't order prints from the studios?

Edit: I'm not being judgemental, I have pirated in the past, just that the old 'secondhand is worse than piracy' is just crap.

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Except that really isn't true, is it, and it's one of the rubbish-arguments people use to justify why piracy isn't such a big deal.

I really don't think piracy is a big deal.

Water is available free to most people and yet millions of pounds are spent on bottled water every year - just because something is available for free does not mean people don't pay for it anyway.

Edit: I'm not being judgemental, I have pirated in the past, just that the old 'secondhand is worse than piracy' is just crap.

No disagreement from me on that - but technically my occasional download/play/bin of a game does less harm to the developer than my buying their game 1-year-old pre-owned.

It's just when you zoom out to the whole picture that you see that pre-owned is an issue for the industry to sort out for itself without infringing on it's customers rights and piracy has to stop being this idiotic concept of "every pirated copy is a lost sale" at the same time.

It's interesting what someone said about new/pre-owned being sold side-by-side tho - it's true that Comet don't have used fridges but almost ever car dealer sells pre-owned (often only by themselves and for almost no time) cars alongside new...

The reason for that is that the money for a manufacturer AND the dealer comes more from the maintenance and repair of the car than it does from the original sale.

Games could learn something from that perhaps?

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I really don't think piracy is a big deal.

Water is available free to most people and yet millions of pounds are spent on bottled water every year - just because something is available for free does not mean people don't pay for it anyway.

I really don't see the connection between videogames and bottled water. People spend money on water which they pay for on a monthly basis, by the way. It comes out the tap.

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Personally I think it is about time the industry said fine if you want to sell second hand do so but you will not get any new products to sell. Currently all they are doing is biting the hand that feeds them IMO.

That sentence shows a fundamental misunderstanding of what 'the industry' is.

"The industry" doesn't really exist in the way you're thinking of it, you've got developers, publishers, distributors and retailers and they are all competing for a slice of the sale price at the end of the day.

Retail itself is a goliath - without retail (in particular the big chains), games would be fucked 6 ways to Sunday - retail has massive influence and they take a big cut of the money, no-one dare piss-them-off.

The distributors who feed them are not in any position to threaten to withhold goods - their business is selling massive amounts and they have no interest at all in telling retail what to do other than 'buy more'.

Publishers have more power - they could decide who to allow to sell 'their' games - but they're the ones financing the process and so they want a maximal return for which they need premium retail effort to backup their marketting and they know if retailers lost their income from pre-owned that they'd expect a much larger cut of new sales - probably to the extent they may be worse off

(That last point is a bit like the 'lower RRP' argument - it's possible the extra sales in a no-pre-owned or lower-RRP scenario would result in more money overall - but no-one has the nuts to try lowering RRPs and the pre-owned thing would cause the anti-trust/competition people to descend I suspect).

Lastly theirs your poor-old-developers who - quite frankly - have about the sum total of fuck all to do with any of this - even tho it's they who probably suffer most at the hands of how it all works.

But anyway - once online sales are the norm (as they're becoming with the PC and where's already a foothold on most consoles) this will all be irrelevant anyway :lol:

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That sentence shows a fundamental misunderstanding of what 'the industry' is.

"The industry" doesn't really exist in the way you're thinking of it, you've got developers, publishers, distributors and retailers and they are all competing for a slice of the sale price at the end of the day. IE you either make a business selling used Levis or new not both.

Retail itself is a goliath - without retail (in particular the big chains), games would be fucked 6 ways to Sunday - retail has massive influence and they take a big cut of the money, no-one dare piss-them-off.

The distributors who feed them are not in any position to threaten to withhold goods - their business is selling massive amounts and they have no interest at all in telling retail what to do other than 'buy more'.

Publishers have more power - they could decide who to allow to sell 'their' games - but they're the ones financing the process and so they want a maximal return for which they need premium retail effort to backup their marketting and they know if retailers lost their income from pre-owned that they'd expect a much larger cut of new sales - probably to the extent they may be worse off

(That last point is a bit like the 'lower RRP' argument - it's possible the extra sales in a no-pre-owned or lower-RRP scenario would result in more money overall - but no-one has the nuts to try lowering RRPs and the pre-owned thing would cause the anti-trust/competition people to descend I suspect).

Lastly theirs your poor-old-developers who - quite frankly - have about the sum total of fuck all to do with any of this - even tho it's they who probably suffer most at the hands of how it all works.

But anyway - once online sales are the norm (as they're becoming with the PC and where's already a foothold on most consoles) this will all be irrelevant anyway :lol:

I'm not sure about a fundamental mis-understanding about what the industry is. CDs. DVDs, Books and Clothes are all Designed, Manufactured and Distributed in a similar fashion. NONE of those have major retail brands selling old and new side by side. Why? Because any shop selling used Levis would be told by Levi that they wont be getting any more new ones until they stop.

I'm not against second hand. I'm just saying shops in other sectors have to make a choice. Sell new OR sell second hand. You don't do both.

IMO if the games industry and EB et al got together they could negotiate their position. There is no reason EB could not have an EB second hand store and a main EB store. I think that EB are now much more of a second hand business occasionally selling new as a secondary concern. When 50% or more of daily games sales are second hand that is cause for concern in my books.

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I have to say as a consumer the whole pre-owned thing with EB leaves a bad taste in my mouth. For most games it's a 'massive' $5 AU less than retail.

I buy my pre owned elsewhere. Steam is making inroads for my money at the moment with new games there being bought for less than pre-owned at the retail stores.

(Addressing Nooo's point above, part of the reason I loathe the EB buying experience in Sydney is threefold.

1. They always nag you to buy the 2nd hand copy.

2. I have a sneaking suspicion that when one of their competitors has a bargain on something they send someone over to instantly buy up the stock.

3. Discounting point 2 I do know there is one guy in Sydney who does make it a point to go round to some of the other stores buy good titles that are being discounted in bulk to trade in at EB. Which means if you aren't quick enough to grab a copy i.e. day one you've missed out because this 'sumguy' has grabbed them all. Totally legal but really annoying.)

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I think the industry could force competition or drive EB and their like out of business by buddying up to the Supermarkets.

Currently the Supermarkets only sell new (which is great for the industry) they also drive a massive footfall (also great for the industry). All it needs is Publishers to set an agreement with the Supermarkets to not sell second hand/trade ins and in return give the Supermarkets preferential treatment (or anyone willing to sign up to that agreement), heaps of promo items, bulk discounts etc.

If you did that EB would have a choice. Treat both your customers and your suppliers well or piss off back to under your dirty rocks.

EB and Game etc used to be great shops when they actually supported the industry. Now they are just pretty looking pawn shops.

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The whole "pre-owned is wrong" thing is just daft - what do you think the people who trade-in spend the trade-in money on exactly (clue: it's not - always - coke and hookers).

It's a question of scale. GAME (and GameStop in the US) have taken a fairly small, harmless secondary market and turned it into a clinically efficient industrial process, explicitly designed to squeeze their suppliers.

Retail itself is a goliath - without retail (in particular the big chains), games would be fucked 6 ways to Sunday - retail has massive influence and they take a big cut of the money, no-one dare piss-them-off.

Indeed. It's easy to forget that even now, most people who buy games aren't interested in investing lots of time into educating themselves online or comparing prices. They're making (very infrequent) supermarket/shopping centre impulse buys or presents for themselves/kids/partners/friends. It makes me laugh when headcases like Bruciebonus proclaim that iTunes means that retail will be dead soon. Realistically you need (uncapped) 20meg+ ADSL or fibre to make downloading modern games that convenient. Which is what, 5% of UK homes?

But then five years ago I wouldn't ever have predicted that Virgin Megastore would be gone, so who knows how quickly things will change.

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I'm not sure about a fundamental mis-understanding about what the industry is. CDs. DVDs, Books and Clothes are all Designed, Manufactured and Distributed in a similar fashion. NONE of those have major retail brands selling old and new side by side.

I know a few new/secondhand bookshops - I know a few music stores which do new/used CDs too - neither is popular but it does happen.

More to the point, Amazon, Play(Trade) etc are kinda setting a trend too - let alone eBay (outlet and auctions)???

Why? Because any shop selling used Levis would be told by Levi that they wont be getting any more new ones until they stop.

You're leaping-off on a tangent there - from a massive industry with multiple players to a monolithic brand culture - hardly applies here really...

I'm not against second hand. I'm just saying shops in other sectors have to make a choice. Sell new OR sell second hand. You don't do both.

Neither you or anyone in "the industry" has a right to ask that tho - that's not how business works.

They could - as you say - sit down and agree it, but the problem is that the players don't trust each other and are likely to see any approach as suspicious and they'll not want to play along without a guarantee it won't cost them anything (and both sides can't have that guarantee - some risk has to factor-in somewhere).

IMO if the games industry and EB et al got together they could negotiate their position. There is no reason EB could not have an EB second hand store and a main EB store. I think that EB are now much more of a second hand business occasionally selling new as a secondary concern. When 50% or more of daily games sales are second hand that is cause for concern in my books.

But what's in it for EB to do this? They already get a high percentage of the sticker price - they're paid for premium position in their stores - they're paid to put up advertising and promotional materials etc. etc.

They're massive - huge - enormous and essential to "the industry" and so they do what the hell they like frankly...

p.s. on the £5 difference between used and new - I think that's probably a good thing because many people will say "hell I'll take a new one" with that sort of price gap. It's when you get your more 'indie store' gap of closer to £10 that pre-owned will start to whittle new sales. For years and years I bought pre-owned PS2/XBOX titles - usually within 2-3 weeks of release and always at least £10 cheaper than new - if the gap were just £5 I'd have bought new - and sooner too!

But then five years ago I wouldn't ever have predicted that Virgin Megastore would be gone, so who knows how quickly things will change.

In fairness it went because it's distributor went thus 'calling in' it's business debt - arguably that could happen to the best organised business...

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You're leaping-off on a tangent there - from a massive industry with multiple players to a monolithic brand culture - hardly applies here really...

Neither you or anyone in "the industry" has a right to ask that tho - that's not how business works.

Nintendo, Sony, EA, Microsoft not monolithic brand cultures? Right....

And Levi currently do assert that level of control. Tesco started selling Levis imported from Holland for cheap prices. Levi UK had already refused to sell them to them and so Levi took them to court and got them all stamped as grey imports. Tesco doesn't sell Levi jeans anymore.

Games publishers could do the same if they wanted (I'm not saying I agree with Levis stance above btw).

Running a business is all about the perceived worth of your product. Brands like Nintendo and Levi work hard to make sure that they are percieved as quality merchandise. How many second hand copies of Nintendo products do you see? Fewer than other publishers I'll bet. If your stuff is consistently sold for second hand 1) you get no profit and 2) your brand identity becomes associated with cheap products.

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EB and Game etc used to be great shops when they actually supported the industry. Now they are just pretty looking pawn shops.

Pretty looking? Most of the ones I go look in look worse than charity shops! Add that annoying in house advertorial recording that's constantly playing (think an awful spotty teens going on about the "grrrrreat deals" and the "awesome" game of the week with shit music..)

I've been shopping at JB Hi Fi (a music store) for games because they undercut EB by about $5AU and as an adult I don't feel annoyed by them.

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