Edge #209

[squirtle]

You're too late smitty, it's been agreed that I was in fact right all along (no surprise there then, eh) and that edge 10s don't really man much these days.

To whom?

They don't mean much? On a games forum? A games forum that is descended directly from the old Edge forum? In an Edge Magazine thread?

Hmmm...

[ras el hanout]

Whatever the change, I would still think a ten is fair for a game at the pinnacle of its genre.

Saving it for revolutionary titles is silly, they come along very rarely. Besides there is plenty of question about what is truly revolutionary. Most people don't see to think Halo was, for reasons I can understand, but I think it's such a boring semantic discussion when you consider how fantastic the game is.

Yeah, erm, that's why they meant something.

I was actually skiing when i heard the news that halo had tenned it, there was a real buzz in the lodge that night. not any longer, and I think that's kinda sad, you don't.

[ras el hanout]

To whom?

They don't mean much? On a games forum? A games forum that is descended directly from the old Edge forum? In an Edge Magazine thread?

Hmmm...

An edge ten doesn't mean much to anybody but edge. Fact. Mainly because they were given out for technical achievement in case of GTA4 and LBP and Halo 3.

[mushashi]

This quote from serial Edge savior-in-chief, Tony Mott should make it clear the current Edge thinking on what 10/10 means:

GR: Does a perfect score mean a perfect game?

Tony: What we used to do a long time ago was assign a word equivalent to each score from 1 to 10, and at that point 10 represented 'revolutionary'. And more recently we realised that having the scores spelled out like that was, in a way, holding us back from using the full scale – by definition we could only give a game 10 if it really was revolutionary, and we wanted to be able to use the whole scale.

If next to 10 on our reviews intro today it said 'perfect', then that's what 10 would mean. We changed all that because we'd get people arguing about whether or not games we had given 10 were actually revolutionary. So we deliberately changed it and said that the numbers on the scale were simply the numbers on the scale, so 1 = ‘one’, and so on. It was a slightly tongue-in-cheek thing to do, and we took some flak for it, but ultimately it helps to simplify the process, and it removes a lot of the unnecessary dialogue that can surround these things.

So now we just say, the scale is 1 to 10 and a 10 is a 10. You should be able to interpret that as you will. The fact that we've only given a small number of games 10 out of 10 speaks for itself. Ultimately I’d hope, as we all do, that when your review of Halo 3 consists of four pages of text, your readers would pay more attention to what the writer has to say about the game rather than the little digit at the end.

GR: Does Edge have a set criteria of what a 10 should be, then?

Tony: This sort of thing is indefinable, I think. You can't use a checklist. If Tetris was invented today, I suppose you'd have to give it 10, but if you take that game apart, you can't say it's in any way a 10 apart from what it is as a whole. You can't break it down beyond that. You can get into an argument where you say 'Well, the graphics are perfect' because they're perfectly functional, they do their job perfectly. But I don't like to think about review scoring as a kind of science.

Above: In its 14 year history only six games have ever received a perfect score from Edge. They are Super Mario 64 (pictured), Gran Turismo, Zelda: Ocarina of Time, Halo, Half-Life 2 and Halo 3

GR: Do you think 10s are dished out a bit too liberally?

Tony: It's difficult having a scale of 1 to 10 and so rarely using that upper-most point because it can make you look like you're being snobby or difficult just for the sake of it. Broadly speaking, though, I do think 10s are thrown about a bit too casually. I do see some 10s that strike me as misleading to the consumer. I think when the consumer sees ‘10’ on the page it should make them stop and think about it. It should make them think, 'This isn't just a game that's recommended; I actually must have this game'.

I don't want to get too much into the debate about BioShock, but I was surprised at the amount of 10s it received. The Metacritic rating for that game is insane. I really enjoyed it, but I wouldn't ever feel comfortable giving 10 to BioShock, not because it isn’t revolutionary or anything like that, but because it doesn’t feel like a 10 to me. But now we're getting into the debate that people are having all the time on the internet.

GR: Ultimately, then, 10 can be a flawed masterpiece?

Tony: Well, if you take Halo 3 as an example - absolutely. If you looked at Halo 3 in a scientific way - which is why I say I don't like to think about it as a science - if you broke it down and said 'Is the story brilliant? Is the story flawless?' Absolutely not. The story is actually not especially good. But, if you look at it as a whole...

Obviously we reviewed Halo 3 some time ago, but going on the community that's already built around it and certainly the experiences I've had with it and my friends are having with it and all of our readers are having with it, all of that evidence is testament to the greatness of the game as a whole. If you don't look at it scientifically and if you look at it more as, I don’t know, 'Am I having a 10’s worth of entertainment out of this?' I think most people - if they like first-person shooters and if they like the series - would agree.

[ras el hanout]

On Edge's cachet perhaps, but there was much else wrong in your post.

Critics don't (or at least shouldn't) give out good scores on the basis of mass market appeal. Look at all that crap on the Wii that sells in the millions (I'm not talking about the good stuff).

no, but a 10 should have some market appeal. If not why not? A niche title is easier to make, afterall, you can focus in on that niche.

[Destruktofraz]

An edge ten doesn't mean much to anybody but edge. Fact. Mainly because they were given out for technical achievement in case of GTA4 and LBP and Halo 3.

[/quote

Developers might casually dismiss a poor Edge score with that sentiment, but I'm sure they would cream themselves if they heard they got an Edge 10.

[ah]

I was actually skiing when i heard the news that halo had tenned it, there was a real buzz in the lodge that night. not any longer, and I think that's kinda sad, you don't.

you think it's kinda sad that you and your friends no longer put as much trust in a particular magazine's review scores?

[ras el hanout]

Developers might casually dismiss a poor Edge score with that sentiment, but I'm sure they would cream themselves if they heard they got an Edge 10.

Yeah, i'm sure they would. Every mah-fucker needs boost of confidence from time to time.

when halo tenned in the message boards went wild. This is a fact.

when Bayonetta tenned everybody went "Oh".

what;'s changed? The criteria for awarding a ten had changed. And now a niche title can get it too. It's no big deal really but it makes me incredibly angry.

[ras el hanout]

you think it's kinda sad that you and your friends no longer put as much trust in a particular magazine's review scores?

Yeah, I do, but then Edge was never just a 'particular magazine' to me.

[ah]

maybe you should give bayonetta a chance, then. no i mean that's fair enough, i guess i like edge as a place to read interesting opinion, not as a bible or anything like that. everyone's different.

speaking of which...

when Bayonetta tenned everybody went "Oh".

i mean, aside from the fact that a bunch of people in this very thread went "oh shit i guess i need to get this game".

[Broker]

Since June 1986. Its weekly too, so there are probably thousands of issues.

NSMB is a perfect scoring game but Mario World, Mario 64 and Galaxy aren't? That's much stupider than EDGE's list of Tens.

[ras el hanout]

There is a ceiling that certain types of games can reach. Sports games for example will never get a ten. Never, the best football game ever by far? You're getting a nine you fucking bastard. A puzzle game a ten? No fucking way, baby, you get a nine with world of goo. That ceiling has always been there. Weird japanese thing? You're not getting a fucking ten so fuck off. This is the way it was an we accepted it. An RTS was fucking kidding itself if it thought it had eny fucking hope of getting an edge ten. Now Bayonetta has crashed through.

[mushashi]

no, but a 10 should have some market appeal. If not why not? A niche title is easier to make, afterall, you can focus in on that niche.

It's a game in a genre where Devil May Cry 4 shifted 2.4 million units, maybe anything that doesn't do 10 million units is your definition of niche.

what;'s changed? The criteria for awarding a ten had changed. And now a niche title can get it too. It's no big deal really but it makes me incredibly angry.

Or maybe it's a 10 in a genre you just don't personally like. (barely 30,000 people actually buy Edge, you might describe the magazine itself as niche, maybe they need to redesign themselves so they can compete with heat magazine).

A puzzle game a ten? No fucking way, baby, you get a nine with world of goo.

Tony: This sort of thing is indefinable, I think. You can't use a checklist. If Tetris was invented today, I suppose you'd have to give it 10, but if you take that game apart, you can't say it's in any way a 10 apart from what it is as a whole.

Is any puzzle game better than Tetris?

[Destruktofraz]

Well, as soon as I saw its score, Bayonetta went from a 'wait and see' to a 'must preorder'. I'll guess I'll judge for myself whether it deserves that ten or not. Edge have stood me in good stead so far.

[ras el hanout]

(barely 30,000 people actually buy Edge, you might describe the magazine itself as niche, maybe they need to redesign themselves so they can compete with heat magazine).

I think that's what's happening with all these 10s.

[Destruktofraz]

Handheld games will also never get a ten, no matter how perfect they are

But a few weeks ago who'd have thought a 3rd person hack 'em up would have either?

[ras el hanout]

But a few weeks ago who'd have thought a 3rd person hack 'em up would have either?

Nobody, that's the point.

here's an oversimplification.

You like computer games? You'll love Halo!

You like computer games? You'll love Mario Galaxy!

You like Hack 'em up computer games? You'll love Bayonetta!

[ras el hanout]

Is any puzzle game better than Tetris?

Probably not, and reading what that man is saying it sounds like he'd give it a nine.

[Destruktofraz]

Nobody, that's the point.

here's an oversimplification.

You like computer games? You'll love Halo!

You like computer games? You'll love Mario Galaxy!

You like Hack 'em up computer games? You'll love Bayonetta!

But it's the same with everything, not just games. Every review of anything ever could end with a qualifier of 'if you like that sort of thing', but they don't because that much is assumed. My 360 loving mate will never play Mario 64 or Galaxy because he hates Mario. He doesn't care who gave it a 10. His loss.

[ras el hanout]

But it's the same with everything, not just games. Every review of anything ever could end with a qualifier of 'if you like that sort of thing', but they don't because that much is assumed. My 360 loving mate will never play Mario 64 or Galaxy because he hates Mario. He doesn't care who gave it a 10. His loss.

Well then give every game a ten and end it with "if you like that sort of thing." Problem solved.

[Rudderless]

I'm just wondering why ramone doesn't know what 'free-flowing combat' means.

[ras el hanout]

I'm just wondering why ramone doesn't know what 'free-flowing combat' means.

Is it something about combos?

I don't know, I, like the majority of hardcore gamers, don't much care for this genre of niche games, that's not to say they're bad and looking at this forum there are a few people excited about Bayonetta. Not that many though, not for an Edge ten that is.

[Rudderless]

It's combat that flows freely.

[squirtle]

Is it something about combos?

I don't know, I, like the majority of hardcore gamers, don't much care for this genre of niche games, that's not to say they're bad and looking at this forum there are a few people excited about Bayonetta. Not that many though, not for an Edge ten that is.

So a game can't have a 10 unless it appeals to absolutely loads of people then? Is that what you're saying.

See, let's do the same with film. Take Citizen Kane, regarded by quite a few as the best film ever made, and surely deserving of an Edge 10. But does it appeal to loads of people? Probably not.

With your logic, every Fifa game ever made is a 10.

[Stolly]

With your logic, every Fifa game ever made is a 10.

And Eastenders would get an Edge 10 too

[Taurus]

I'm just wondering why ramone doesn't know what 'free-flowing combat' means.

It's like Dynasty Warriors, right?

[ras el hanout]

So a game can't have a 10 unless it appeals to absolutely loads of people then? Is that what you're saying.

See, let's do the same with film. Take Citizen Kane, regarded by quite a few as the best film ever made, and surely deserving of an Edge 10. But does it appeal to loads of people? Probably not.

With your logic, every Fifa game ever made is a 10.

No, you can't read. i'm not saying a game with broad appeal should get a ten. I'm saying it's pretty hard to make a case for a game without broad appeal to get a ten. I'm talking about broad appeal among hardcore gamers like me and you. This game does not have it. It's like, they might bring out the worlds best show jumping game, and show jumping computer game fans might absolutely love it, think it's perfect. It's not getting a ten though, is it? Let's be honest. And why not? Well, you answer me that.

And Eastenders would get an Edge 10 too

Yeah, that;'s exactly what I'm saying, I'm saying that the most popular games should get a ten.

[Vemsie]

when Bayonetta tenned everybody went "Oh".

Not me. And those who followed the game ever since it was announced.

I called it ages ago. Not so much the ten, but that it would be a masterpiece. Look a Kamiya's body of work. He came back to the genre he created with the intention of topping every action game ever made. A genre that is nowhere near as niche as you make it out to be btw. The DMC series shifted millions of units. You say that the majority of hardcore gamers doesn't care, but when I look at the Bayonetta thread over at GAF it paints a different picture. Not that 'the majority' is a good indication of anything.

I presume the ten is there because it is the pinnacle of genre. A new standard for action games, just like GT set a standard for racing sims all those years ago. I think EDGE used the words 'as good as it gets'.

But in the end it doesn't really matter whether it's an EDGE 10 or a Eurogamer 9 or Saurian's new best friend. What matters is that it's a brilliant game.

[squirtle]

Ok, so let me get this straight: to get a 10 the game has to be brilliant and has to appeal to everyone.

Ok...

Do you not like fighty games like Bayonetta, then? Devil May Cry, God of War, Ninja Gaiden? Not your cup of tea?

Yet you label yourself as hardcore (whatever that means). Isn't that a bit of an oxymoron?

[Sprite Machine]

No, you can't read. i'm not saying a game with broad appeal should get a ten. I'm saying it's pretty hard to make a case for a game without broad appeal to get a ten. I'm talking about broad appeal among hardcore gamers like me and you. This game does not have it. It's like, they might bring out the worlds best show jumping game, and show jumping computer game fans might absolutely love it, think it's perfect. It's not getting a ten though, is it? Let's be honest. And why not? Well, you answer me that.

Because the reviewer doesn't like show jumping.

Funnily enough, not everyone likes Halo, Mario or Zelda either.