Transformers: War for Cybertron (PC/PS3/X360 & NDS/Wii)

[Meh]

Nice set-up, Gerbik.

[Cacophanus]

Cacky blatantly can't wait for the new Front Mission game.

Buddy played it at TGS, twas utter shite. The videos of it in action look idiotic too.

[zektbach]

Fuck sake, we haven't entered the world according to Cacky, where heaving great big robots that fire lasers and kill shit actually exist, have we?

[incapable hulk]

Oh god, not this again...

I thought there must be a way we could somehow turn this thread even more fanboyish....it will alway be skyfire!!!

This thread is in dire need of the Touch:

And mutual hatred against Hot Rod.

...though it seems you have one up'd me. Well played....well played

[Cacophanus]

Fuck sake, we haven't entered the world according to Cacky, where heaving great big robots that fire lasers and kill shit actually exist, have we?

No, that was Alex. I was talking about how they work in games.

I thought there must be a way we could somehow turn this thread even more fanboyish....it will alway be skyfire!!!

No, it will always be a VF-1S Super Valkyrie.

[incapable hulk]

No, it will always be a VF-1S Super Valkyrie.

Hmmm....I dont see it *

*Yes, im fully aware of the renaming of the character and his original toy being a repaint of the macross toy. I had it as akid and was gobsmacked when i unwrapped it to discover it looked nothing like the cartoon

[Mr. Gerbik]

I still don't see the connection between the cool as fuck Transformers and some niche Japanese cartoon about young emo kids being emo while flying around in overdesigned pointy emo robots. Seriously. In what way are Transformers supposed to be mechs? What am I missing here?

[angel]

Life-threatening pedantry. Oh and Melbourne House's PS2 Transformers is still amazing.

[Cacophanus]

Yes, im fully aware of the renaming of the character

Good

The original Jetfire toy was actually based on Hikaru Ichijoe's VF-1S Strike Valkyrie but instead supplanted the Strike Packs with red Super Packs. So whilst it's a Super Valkyrie the basis was a little mixed in terms of the Macross lineage.

[Cyhwuhx]

I still don't see the connection between the cool as fuck Transformers and some niche Japanese cartoon about young emo kids being emo while flying around in overdesigned pointy emo robots. Seriously. In what way are Transformers supposed to be mechs? What am I missing here?

They were originally multiple series of Japanese toys meant for transporting humans inside of them (hence some of the first transformers having room in their chest for 'something'). They were as such primarily designed as mecha. Though when Hasbro stepped in and merged the multiple series into one, it focussed on the mecha being characters.

Cacky's main problem lies with robots/mecha having a different 'physical' existence and not being able to move as nimble as a human (tbh the ragdoll physics in the Armada game also pissed me off for this reason), but he's also uncompromising in seeing that this is not mandatory as per the game's individual design. He holds on to a encompassing idea that 'mecha' should act like 'mecha'.

Personally I don't care, as long as it produces a game that's good enough to play, featuring characters I know and love.

[Dimahoo]

Transformers = American, inspired by the Japanese Diaclone models (which owe their existance to GI Joe).

[Harsin]

What would Data from Star Trek be classed as, enquiring minds want to know.

[Dimahoo]

The point is one is a pilot of a war machine/robot/mecha

The transformer on the other hand is the robot. He's not controlled.

Its like the difference between you and being someone controlling someone else.

[Cacophanus]

They were originally multiple series of Japanese toys meant for transporting humans inside of them (hence some of the first transformers having room in their chest for 'something'). They were as such primarily designed as mecha. Though when Hasbro stepped in and merged the multiple series into one, it focussed on the mecha being characters.

No, Diaclone was separate line from Microman - as it used far smaller non-poseable "men" to fit into the cockpits of the vehicles. The point of Diaclone was the transformation from the off, that's why Shoji Kawamori and Kazutaka Miyatake were contracted to do the designs. Hasbro just cashed in on that.

Cacky's main problem lies with robots/mecha having a different 'physical' existence and not being able to move as nimble as a human (tbh the ragdoll physics in the Armada game also pissed me off for this reason), but he's also uncompromising in seeing that this is not mandatory as per the game's individual design. He holds on to a encompassing idea that 'mecha' should act like 'mecha'.

Again, no. I still want a good game but when it comes to mecha treating them functionally akin to people never bloody works. It's not that I think mecha should be interpreted in only one way, as ultimately (good!) mecha games are hugely varied in terms of their functional approach, but that they shouldn't force functionality that's been proven time and time again to be a total dead.

[Dimahoo]

It kinda worked with ZOE - although not strictly mecha, rather...bodysuits.

[Cacophanus]

Transformers = American, inspired by the Japanese Diaclone models (which owe their existance to GI Joe).

Microman was based off some of the same moulds as G.I. Joe, Diaclone was a separate line entirely though (in terms of its manufacture and production).

What would Data from Star Trek be classed as, enquiring minds want to know.

Depends, the show calls him an android. Though the localisation of that varies between regions.

The point is one is a pilot of a war machine/robot/mecha

The transformer on the other hand is the robot. He's not controlled.

Its like the difference between you and being someone controlling someone else.

You can have mecha that's sentient, it happens a lot in anime and manga - so the mecha definition is broader than just pilot-able robots. In this case, the designs were originally intended for the Diaclone mecha to be controlled. So the functional parameters they were built around were very much mecha. After all the main design team behind the toys are now some of the most renowned mecha designers in the world.

[Cyhwuhx]

Still, it's a moot point. It has nothing to do with this new game, in that there isn't an iron law that states how the game should be build.

Not trusting the designers is one thing, claiming the game can only exist in one form is just stupid (especially considering how the franchise is based around the concept of you know, transformation).

[Cacophanus]

Still, it's a moot point. It has nothing to do with this new game, in that there isn't an iron law that states how the game should be build.

Not trusting the designers is one thing, claiming the game can only exist in one form is just stupid (especially considering how the franchise is based around the concept of you know, transformation).

I actually said the exact opposite of that though!

Mecha games shouldn't be limited to one form of functional interpretation, the greatest mecha games are always the ones that are the most innovative in terms of approach. However, High Moon et al should learn from prior mecha games that utilised poor implementation of their rule sets, such as treating their mecha equivalent to people. It's never worked.

[SeanR]

Transformers are very much regarded as mecha I'm afraid (living or otherwise). Your argument is often made though but it always overlooks the functional standpoint, as they're still machines - they don't operate like people would. Ignoring the scale/mass element for the moment, the base ability set of an average Transformer to an average human protagonist is wholly different. Treating Transformers as functional equivalents to people is a very big mistake and one that is repeatedly made.

The scale/mass issue is the biggest problem most modern mecha games try to ignore though, as you cite, and they're always dire as a consequence of that.

The only Western developed mecha game that probably won't be total balls is the upcoming MechWarrior reboot - as they can't even begin to treat their mecha as though they were people (as the fanbase would flat out kill them).

What about Shogo MAD, that was alright.

[Cacophanus]

What about Shogo MAD, that was alright.

No, it wasn't.

[SeanR]

No, it wasn't.

Yes, it was.

[angel]

for gods sake

[Massive Invisible Dog]

My favourite mech is that one in Men In Black one with an alien in it's head. Did he have a game?

[Cacophanus]

My favourite mech is that one in Men In Black one with an alien in it's head. Did he have a game?

Yes (kinda).

[Massive Invisible Dog]

They should give him his own Gears of War style game.

[Harsin]

They should give him his own Gears of War style game.

Eddie Murphy from the awful film 'Dave' could be the co-op player.

[Mr. Gerbik]

Personally I don't care, as long as it produces a game that's good enough to play, featuring characters I know and love.

I completely agree with this. Who cares if the adheres to the rulesets of mecha-mech-whatever-anime? As long as it's a good game. For what it's worth, I really liked the PS2 Transformers game! I hope it's a bit like that, only all next-gen and lovely. I get the impression that Cacky insists it's crap and that everybody who likes is wrong because it doesn't feel mecha enough according to the standards he describes in this thread?

Shogo was pretty decent too.

[Cacophanus]

They should give him his own Gears of War style game.

Having the pilot work in a Gears of War manner would be fine.

Controlling the mecha that way wouldn't be though.

[Cacophanus]

I completely agree with this. Who cares if the adheres to the rulesets of mecha-mech-whatever-anime? As long as it's a good game. For what it's worth, I really liked the PS2 Transformers game! I hope it's a bit like that, only all next-gen and lovely. I get the impression that Cacky insists it's crap and that everybody who likes is wrong because it doesn't feel mecha enough according to the standards he describes in this thread?

I agree that it should be a "good" and "fun" game too but that disregarding the functional failings of games past is part of that. Surely that's painfully obvious?

[Massive Invisible Dog]

Why not? You could replace all the gruff cunt characters in GoW with Transformers and it'd still play the same way, which would make it a pretty great game.