Tomb Raider (2013)

[squirtle]

Really, what ways are those?

The left and right. The general ways you get flanked.

Yeah, I gathered that much, but why? What was exciting to you about that scene? Would you buy another game on the basis of that sort of thing?

I actually had gotten to the point where I was expecting something special at that point, but it was yet another completely linear, spectacle driven, scripted run down some corridors, except oh the corridors are on fire. As I said I need to understand the appeal of this stuff to gamers.

With lots of firefights on the go, getting the rocket launcher attachment, scooting from cover to cover to take down the fixed gun emplacements, Lara getting fucking angry and taking it too them... Seriously, that sequence was brilliantly done.

But why do you need to understand it? I don't understand the appeal of Lars Von Trier movies, but I never feel the need to understand their appeal to people who like them. Are you a games designer? What possible reason do you have for needing to understand this?

[Smitty]

With lots of firefights on the go, getting the grenade launcher attachment, scooting from cover to cover to take down the fixed gun emplacements, Lara getting fucking angry and taking it too them... Seriously, that sequence was brilliantly done.

Oh, that section, right. I thought people meant that bit before that. That's one of the best parts of the game, true. It's still all pretty superficial though; it's another example of a narrative experience as opposed to any kind of interesting gameplay.

[Smitty]

But why do you need to understand it? I don't understand the appeal of Lars Von Trier movies, but I never feel the need to understand their appeal to people who like them. Are you a games designer? What possible reason do you have for needing to understand this?

As I said in my last reply to you, it is gamers like you who will be driving the sort of change games like TR represent, so I want to understand what people like and why. The reason for my interest is that what's successful and popular will have a big effect on games in the future. Surely that's obvious?

[squirtle]

What? How is the game giving you another tool to use to open up new areas and for use in combat a narrative experience and not giving you tools to mix up how you play the game?

[squirtle]

As I said in my last reply to you, it is gamers like you who will be driving the sort of change games like TR represent, so I want to understand what people like and why. The reason for my interest is that what's successful and popular will have a big effect on games in the future. Surely that's obvious?

Gamers like me? But I'm also playing Fez at the moment and also about to start Mark of Ninja. I haven't been back to it in a while, but I also like FTL as well. Gamers like me? Please don't try and pigeon hole me.

For sure, I love my massively bombastic narrative heavy games, yeah, but I also like the quieter stuff as well, hence me having 1000g for Tomb Raider Legend for example. I play what I enjoy, and what I enjoy is massively diverse.

[elmo]

Oh, you've just reminded me of the whole

burning building bit

. People got excited about THAT?

Yeah man that bit was fantastic. Didn't Underworld opened with a really shit

burning building

didn't it?

[Smitty]

What? How is the game giving you another tool to use to open up new areas and for use in combat a narrative experience and not giving you tools to mix up how you play the game?

Out of combat it just takes the place of a key or button, and in combat it didn't make much difference to me, but hey. I agreed the section was one of the best in the game, i just think that its attractions were superficial. I mean Lara going for them is a narrative thing (as much as I enjoyed that bit of dialogue), it's not like you get any different or better combat after that, unless you think having an overpowered weapon equals good combat.

Moving from cover to cover - there's barely any gameplay there, you're not even required to duck or a press a button to take cover so to me it just felt as narrative-focused (hey player isn't this exciting and epic) as opposed to gameplay-focused. I just feel the game's idea of an exciting sequence is extremely shallow and cynical, really.

[squirtle]

Would you consider the beams that Samus gets in the Metroid games under the same bracket as the grenade launcher in this?

[squirtle]

As an aside, by the way, there have also been two rather nice little puzzles towards the end of the game - the bit in the ship with Alex and the bit with the lift. They were good.

[elmo]

Moving from cover to cover - there's barely any gameplay there, you're not even required to duck or a press a button to take cover so to me it just felt as narrative-focused (hey player isn't this exciting and epic) as opposed to gameplay-focused. I just feel the game's idea of an exciting sequence is extremely shallow and cynical, really.

I'd say there was more gameplay in this - moving away from cover, tapping 'b' to dodge and pick your next piece of cover - than in most 3rd person shooters - move character as far over, wait for arrow to appear, hit 'a' and watch the character move from cover to cover. So I can't relate with that argument.

[Smitty]

Would you consider the beams that Samus gets in the Metroid games under the same bracket as the grenade launcher in this?

No, would you? Those different beams have to be used on different enemies and in different ways. You could kill every enemy in this with the pistol or bow if you wanted to. If it had some sort of matching weapon to enemy mechanic that would be great.

I feel like I have too many weapons here, Lara is overpowered. I'm playing on hard and if I hop between cover I can steamroller everyone. Why is it that the enemies barely make any effort to dash or move about? The combat would have been far more interesting if they'd focussed on delivering a unique combat experience, rather than aping RE4/Uncharted etc. As discussed earlier by others, have far less enemies and ammo. Make it tense and careful. Make it clever and tactical. Survalist combat, you might say. Instead sadly they went for the pour-em-in approach.

[Smitty]

I'd say there was more gameplay in this - moving away from cover, tapping 'b' to dodge and pick your next piece of cover - than in most 3rd person shooters - move character as far over, wait for arrow to appear, hit 'a' and watch the character move from cover to cover. So I can't relate with that argument.

Haha, so you're just focusing on limited circumstances in such games where you can move between two lined-up pieces of cover? How dishonest of you, you know the vast majority of movement will be between cover where you can't do that. There's next to no gameplay here Elmo, to be defending it is to defend the dumbing down of even simplistic mechanics like taking cover.

If you were writing an article about this game would you seriously write that a sequence in which you have to move from cover to cover (with your character taking cover automatically) whilst a big gun shoots at you in a heavily scripted sequence was really exciting? Seriously? Have you talked about this on your podcast yet because I'd be FASCINATED to hear how you praise it.

[squirtle]

No, would you? Those different beams have to be used on different enemies and in different ways. You could kill every enemy in this with the pistol or bow if you wanted to. If it had some sort of matching weapon to enemy mechanic that would be great.

Apart from the Specific Space Pirates in Prime, I'm struggling to think of anything that didn't just get taken down with the most powerful beam available once you have it. And when all is said and done, the beams are just keys for different coloured doors.

Ok, did you like the rope bow application, being able to drag enemies towards you and finish them off with the ice pick (or one of the other weapons once you unlock the finishers)?

[Smitty]

Ok, did you like the rope bow application, being able to drag enemies towards you and finish them off with the ice pick (or one of the other weapons once you unlock the finishers)?

Ah see like a lot of people I didn't realise this was a thing you could do. The game very pointedly tells you can grab things with ropes on them, and it never occurred to me that it might work on people. It sounds like a good idea (although i have feeling there was a mechanic with the line shooter thing in previous TR games) but overall it just sounds like yet another tool for Lara, who is overpowered anyway. See I think all that stuff and the stumble melee are more about giving variety to the repetative samey combat then they are really compelling mechanics within it.

If I felt a serious need use an arrow drag or melee combat, then i'd have a different opinion. I think Aimless said something earlier on about what you actually feel the need to do, what the game asks you to do. I don't think it asks you to do anything interesting. When you don't HAVE to use certain mechanics to get by, they just feel like they're there to add visual variety to the 1,000th scavanger slaughter by Lara.

[elmo]

Haha, so you're just focusing on limited circumstances in such games where you can move between two lined-up pieces of cover? How dishonest of you, you know the vast majority of movement will be between cover where you can't do that. There's next to no gameplay here Elmo, to be defending it is to defend the dumbing down of even simplistic mechanics like taking cover.

Not at all.

Ok so this cover system makes you play in a different way. It's FAR less mechanical. In all of my favourite 3rd person shooters it's been a button to snap to cover then you can simply stay behind that one bit of cover for a while, popping up, setting your aim popping down and waiting for the enemy to pop out in the spot. Then you pop out and shoot. Then you have moving to cover. Going to the edge of cover, waiting for and arrow and hitting 'a' to move directly to the next piece of cover. You don't even have to press a direction. It was like this in Max Payne 3, Mass Effect and Gears. 3 of my favourite games/series of this generation.

You can't do this in Tomb Raider. It's far less loose. You have to pick and run to cover yourself. You can't hold position behind cover for long at all. It's more frantic.

You moved around during a gun fight a hell of a lot more than you do in other 3rd person shooters. So more gameplay is required.

If you want to get all silly and discuss this like a 4 year old, go for it.

[Sie]

I finished it last night and it never occured to me to yank the enemies with the rope either. Absolutely loved the game though. Thoroughly enjoyed every minute of it.

[squirtle]

I feel like I have too many weapons here, Lara is overpowered. I'm playing on hard and if I hop between cover I can steamroller everyone. Why is it that the enemies barely make any effort to dash or move about?

Really? Mine are all over the place like fucking lemurs sometimes!

[robdood]

Yeah I dont think automatic cover = less gameplay. It actually frees up the player's concentration time for shooting and planning where to move.

My only gripe is you cab tell when you're close to enemies cos she automatically ducks! Likewise when a fight is over as she just stands up (oh and the DRAMA MUSIC finishes)

[Smitty]

Then you have moving to cover. Going to the edge of cover, waiting for and arrow and hitting 'a' to move directly to the next piece of cover. You don't even have to press a direction.

And what's dishonest there is that this is one type of moving to cover; moving to perpendicular pieces of cover that are side by side.

[Ferine]

The automatic cover system in this works really well and has no less 'gameplay' for not requiring a button press. I find it grants movement an analogue element that snap-to systems lack; I actually feel in more control of her positioning as I can easily and reliable slink around corners or other obstacles.

[Sie]

Really? Mine are all over the place like fucking lemurs sometimes!

Ditto. I had to run about like a loon quite a bit as the enemies flanked for a better position on me

[elmo]

And what's dishonest there is that this is one type of moving to cover; moving to perpendicular pieces of cover that are side by side.

No it's not. You can move to cover in front of you.

Stop being dishonest.

[Smitty]

It's also doubly ironic that Elmo crows about an automatic cover system and complains about moving sideways between cover in other shooters when quite often this game boxes you in and your 'tactical' options are reduced to shuffling between different points of cover (arranged in a straight line with gaps) whilst enemies pour in from one direction opposite to the side of cover you're on. In those circumstances you are just pushing the direction stick to move back and forth.

As I said the game doesn't even know how to work to its strengths. Uncharted allows you to keep mobile and move up and down (the slightly overplayed but readily apparent 'verticality' aspect).

[Smitty]

Really? Mine are all over the place like fucking lemurs sometimes!

Really? My main memory is of relentlessly gunning down scavengers. They're too easy to kill, but that's because of the combats whole COD pour-em-in approach. This is why I was so disappointed with the

introduction of the Stormguard,

because I was hoping they'd have some wild attack patterns that would make it hard to kill them.

[elmo]

It's also doubly ironic that Elmo crows about an automatic cover system and complains about moving sideways between cover in other shooters when quite often this game boxes you in and your 'tactical' options are reduced to shuffling between different points of cover (arranged in a straight line with gaps) whilst enemies pour in. In those circumstances you are just pushing the direction stick to move back and forth.

As I said the game doesn't even know how to work to its strengths. Uncharted allows you to keep mobile and move up and down (the slightly overplayed but readily apparent 'verticality' aspect).

Another thing that's ironic about me is that I keep getting sucked into the Smitty-Vortex.

I keep telling myself I won't, but here I am again.

[Smitty]

Another thing am that's ironic about me is that I keep getting sucked into the Smitty-Vortex.

I keep telling myself I won't, but here I am again.

An insult, that's original. Have you not noticed Elmo that I haven't felt the need to talk of an 'Elmo vortex' or any other random insults?

[elmo]

An insult, that's original. Have you not noticed Elmo that I haven't felt the need to talk of an 'Elmo vortex' or any other random insults?

That's an insult? Are you made of paper?

Right ok, i'm still fucking replying. This thread has really been very shit (and I've been a big part of making it shit) so I'm done here.

You asked for reasons why people liked the combat, I gave them to you and you flat out denied they were even true.

So I'm oooot.

[Smitty]

That's an insult? Are you made of paper?

You know it's an insult, Elmo. You're gonna deny an obvious insult, deployed as insult, is just that? How old are you again?

You asked for reasons why people liked the combat, I have them to you and you flat out denied they were even true.

Yeah, and it was interesting to read them. I didn't deny people may have enjoyed them, I just disagreed with their assessment of them.

[CarloOos]

I find the combat extremely dynamic. It takes facets from Resi 4, Arkham Asylum and Uncharted but combines them into something that, to me (someone who plays an extensive amount of FPS/TPS games) manages to feel refreshingly unique.

The majority of the environments offer plenty of scope for tactical manoeuvring and verticality, with the behaviour of the enemies actively encouraging you to play the game aggressively and make the most of your feature-set.

Whilst it is technically possible to just flick between cover A & cover B just popping heads with the bow each time you get flushed out, it's not ideal and offers a pretty bland way of playing the game. It's possible to play Max Payne 3 that way, but that would equally miss the point.

[Smitty]

Whilst it is technically possible to just flick between cover A & cover B just popping heads with the bow each time you get flushed out

I never said that, I haven't been doing that at all. I'm running around, i'm trying to keep things interesting. The underlying combat just isn't that interesting. It's, uh, perfunctory.