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Bioshock: Infinite - New E3 Demo - Post #307


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Far Cry, Halo, Battlefield, hell even Call of Duty. The shooter aspect of this game is old hat, we all experienced this gameplay back in the '90s. Aside from the vigors, does this really play any differently to, say, Quake 2 when the shooting starts?

This looks almost next-gen; it feels older than last gen for most of it.

Good to see somebody agrees with me. I'm amazed at how overrated this game is. Sure, the scenery and atmosphere is great, but the actual shooting is awful. So uninspired. A 7/10 game at best!
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I don't really understand comments such as combat is ordinary 'aside from the vigours'. The vigours are there and they are part of what make the combat interesting - as well as the tears and the skylines. I spent a large portion of my last session using nothing but vigours to take down groups of enemies (bucking bronco, possession, devils kiss primarily). The weapon combat in isolation, yeah; perhaps it's standard fare shooting that we've seen for years, but who would play through the game ignoring the vigours and the flexibility and fun that they bring to the combat?

That said, I'm not a massive fan of FPS' generally and I tend to ignore them; so a question to those saying the combat is old-hat and uninspired, what is it about other more modern shooters that this doesn't have? Is it missing cover mechanics? Are the weapons puny? Are the level designs and set pieces not spectacular? I'd be interested to know as I have really enjoyed the shooting in this so I may not be so quick to dismiss playing FPS' in the future.

I think I'm nearing the end now, and it's been tremendous fun. My god, the attention to detail and the world building on show here is second to none. Even when moving up and down an elevator shaft past a view of a room that you see for only a couple of seconds they cram in so much detail. Brilliant.

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Far Cry, Halo, Battlefield, hell even Call of Duty. The shooter aspect of this game is old hat, we all experienced this gameplay back in the '90s. Aside from the vigors, does this really play any differently to, say, Quake 2 when the shooting starts?

This looks almost next-gen; it feels older than last gen for most of it.

I can't agree with this at all. The latest Halo, Battlefiled and CoD are as old fashioned as they come regarding the mechanics. Infinite's battlefields are much more interesting and fun, especially on hard. Halo 4's only redeeming quality over this is the A.I. Only Far Cry and Crysis can claim to offer something more modern, with their open world and such, but I don't know if that is entiretly true, since their worlds and stories are boring as fuck and the actual shooting pretty standard.

I'm not claiming this is some kind of revolution (we'll never have a revolution unless we surpass the first Halo's A.I.) but the actual shooting gameplay, story, characterization and themes are -at least- more refreshing than any FPS out there. On the other hand, maybe it depends on how you look at it. The FPS genre, for me, is totally dead and has become boring as hell, especially if you have no interest in multiplayer (which I don't). So Infinite for me is a glorious boost on a genre that has no imagination any more.

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Oh my god... So many whining wussies concerning the last part. Here's how to do it like a damned pro:

You need to prioritise Songbird to take out the Gunships first and foremost. These fly in and settle directly at the front of the bow. As for the barges, just let them deploy all their dudes and casually dispatch of them as you wish. They hardly do any damage to the core anyway. Once the rocket dudes come into play on either balcony simply Bucking Bronco them followed by a Charge hit to hit them for six/home run them into the sky.

The Vox Zeppelins are the nastiest here. You need to take them out immediately after they deploy a pair of Patriots, or else they will just keep on dropping them. After you have done so use a combination of Possession and RPG rounds on the Patriots to easily get rid of them. Job done, with no Songbird cooldown issues.

I used this section to clear up about six achievements, on Hard. Nothing compared to those bastard Lady Comstock fights.

All this talk of removing the 'game' from games... You people are crazy!! >_<

Post a screenshot, progamer :P

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The combat is fantastic in my mind. I just love how dynamic it is and how open it is. What are you guys who think it's crap doing wrong?

I may well be doing it wrong, or maybe im using rubbish weapons, but coming to it straight from Far Cry 3 it just doesn't feel anywhere near as enjoyable. All these 10/10 scores have me thinking of The Emperor's New Clothes.
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A list with easter eggs and references (best viewed when the game is completed):

http://www.ign.com/wikis/bioshock-infinite/Easter_Eggs_and_Secrets

I don't think it's fair to dismiss the Vigors like that.

For me the combat is leagues ahead of most shooters. It plays closer to Bulletstorm than anything else with all creative options the Vigors bring to the table.

It even takes ideas from games like Borderlands where you can combo enemies to increase a damage multiplier.

This is without mentioning of course the freedom the sky rails bring to movement in combat situations.

Yeah, this. It definitely feels a bit like Bulletstorm when you for example lay traps and then use another Vigor to pull a group of incoming enemies into them. I like the sky-lines best of all though. It makes fights incredibly dynamic, in particular when enemies start using them as well.

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For the people who've queried the relevance of Vigors in Columbia (which are way less integral to society than the Plasmids were to Rapture)...

(endgame spoilers ahoy)

Fink comments in a voxophone to his brother - who's the musician - "if the musician you're watching is half as talented as the biologist I'm watching, you'll be very succesful", or something similar. Ie: Fink's brother has been ripping music from other eras and publishing it. But Fink himself has been watching somebody in Rapture making Plasmids and is basically copying them. Vigors are, literally, imported wholesale from the first BioShock, because Fink's seen how successful/powerful they were, and reckons he can sell them in his world. Turns out he's right! But the reason the manipulation of biology is less relevant is because Fink's not a scientist, he didn't invent them; he's a salesman, just copying someone else's product.

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Did anyone else nearly piss themselves when

you unlock the door in Comstock House and turn around to see that enemy blaring in your face? It's a cheap scare, was done several times in Bioshock 1, and the way the camera control was suddenly taken from me made me wary they were going to pull a jump scare. But damn, if the controller didn't nearly fly out of my hands. I had to pause it for about 15 seconds to regain my composure.

Same here. The great thing is that I think the game's atmosphere is more about suspense than scares, so you're not expecting things like that very often. :D

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A couple of queries (with the benefit if completing the game)

how come the security guard at soldiers field calls Liza Annabelle? Also, it kind of feels that Booker knows Slate before the encounter - which makes sense of course but not necessarily vice versa

spoilers

V1NX mentioned the Slate thing already but the Annabelle one is interesting. Annabelle is DeWitt's wife, so it makes sense that Elizabeth looks like Annabelle, but I don't understand how somebody in Columbia would get that since they are from different universes. Of course, Annabelle would exist in the Comstock world though that's never touched upon.

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The combat is fantastic in my mind. I just love how dynamic it is and how open it is. What are you guys who think it's crap doing wrong?

it dull and repetitive and spoils the flow of the story - you've just shot 600 policemen so it lessons the impact when named characters die.

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No, me too. I just grinned and jumped in the air.

A couple of queries (with the benefit if completing the game)

how come the security guard at soldiers field calls Liza Annabelle? Also, it kind of feels that Booker knows Slate before the encounter - which makes sense of course but not necessarily vice versa

I think that was

just a ruse to get Elizabeth to confirm her identity; she even says "No... my name's Elizabeth" or something.

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it dull and repetitive and spoils the flow of the story - you've just shot 600 policemen so it lessons the impact when named characters die.

Interesting. It doesn't feel dull and repetitive to me, and not being a FPS fan this was my main fear before getting stuck into it. There are lots of ways you can approach the combat. You can hang back with the sniper rifle and then use the other weapons if enemies get close. You can use the environment combined with the vigours. You can use the skylines, hooks and tears that give you ways to take them on from above. You can charge around doing a combination of all of the above. There are different weapon choices. I'm near the end and I've never even fired some of the weapons and vigours, including the shotgun.

Those that do find the combat dull or lacking, I'm genuinely interested to hear why you feel that way. Is it because you're not funnelled into situations where you're forced to mix it up so end up just 'pointing and shooting'? Is it just because you don't want it to have the shooting parts because you're so engaged in the story and would rather it be more of an 'action adventure'? Or do the shooting mechanics feel old and stale compared to other shooters?

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it dull and repetitive

Really? Each time it introduces a new Vigor it allows new approaches to combat. The only way I could see it being dull and repetitive is if you stuck to the same weapon and Vigor throughout the entire game.
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Does it matter which

of the brooches you chose - the bird or the cage? I would imagine it probably doesn't, but hopefully someone will say "yes, it unlocks a 3D printer that makes pound coins come out of your actual 360"

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Nope, don't think K.

I'm really sorry if this is a repost.

14 seconds in.

It would appear that you can hear the Songbird dying during the first Bioshock.

Mind blown if true!

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Really? Each time it introduces a new Vigor it allows new approaches to combat. The only way I could see it being dull and repetitive is if you stuck to the same weapon and Vigor throughout the entire game.

except you can only upgrade a few so you always use them

Is it just because you don't want it to have the shooting parts because you're so engaged in the story and would rather it be more of an 'action adventure'? Or do the shooting mechanics feel old and stale compared to other shooters?

probably both of those

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The Skyrails were great fun, but I thought it was a shame they were basically used only for set-pieces like Handyman fights and anytime a Zeppelin was involved. The Emporia level has one in a little arena at the start for a Handyman fight, and then no others through the >1 hour level, and the level after that in Comstock Tower has none, for example.

I guess they didn't use them too much because you'd whizz through the content too fast.

The Raven guys are a spin on the KKK, a gang of emancipation-hating, Lincoln-demonising, John Wilkes Booth evangelising pro-slavery freaks. Their motto is "protecting our rights" in Latin. They contrast with the 'negro friendly' people you meet minutes before, who are harbouring ex-slaves in a saferoom. It all seems pretty well tied into the universe to me. You find a recording from Fink early on, advising Comstock that he can procure endless amounts of 'negroes' as a workforce. Then you find a couple of recordings from Comstock which talk in no uncertain terms about the negroes being born to be slaves for white folk, and that they should be thankful for the opportunity!

It all ties in with Comstock's wider plan, to wipe out everyone in existence bar those on the 'ark' of Columbia, i.e. Godfearing white Americans and their negro slaves.

Also the handymen are explained by Fink, who discovered the technology to merge biology and machine through a future rift somehow. He says this in a couple of recordings. Except of course, his version is crude and unethical and leaves the handymen screaming in pain. I love how they chase after you because of the noise you're making rather than anything else!

The bit that felt a bit forced for me were the rift-ghosts. They felt a little bit out of place, flying around looking like something out of Ghostbusters.

Yeah, I got the some of the audiologs that included some justification later on, but it's still awfully tenuous, isn't it?

Why would a group so concerned with racial purity willingly turn their own into horrible monsters of man and machine? They've got magic for electricity and anti-gravity, so it's not like they needed the Handymen for heavy lifting. Why would you have crazy arsonist police who fit themselves into massive steampunk apparatus and burn everything on a really flammable floating island without water when anyone can just use their magic anyway?

The enemies still feel really gamey, with justification tacked on, rather than something organic appearing from the world.

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Why would a group so concerned with racial purity willingly turn their own into horrible monsters of man and machine? They've got magic for electricity and anti-gravity, so it's not like they needed the Handymen for heavy lifting. Why would you have crazy arsonist police who fit themselves into massive steampunk apparatus and burn everything on a really flammable floating island without water when anyone can just use their magic anyway? There's still a huge gameplay/setting disconnect.

Which bit in particular did you think was tenuous RJ? Not sure which of the references you're referring to but I don't necessarily disagree.

The handymen are made from people who were dying or disabled, though their existence seems torturous and unethical. You see a poster showing a bedbound man being turned into a handyman right at the start, then later on there's a mini-series of conversations and audiologs about the wife of the first handyman and how she coped (or didn't) with his metamorphosis. They're not designed for heavy lifting, they're saved from death in a clunky awful 18th century approximation of a biomechanised body and there's nothing else they can do with themselves.

The firemen are just normal enemies throwing Devil's Kiss vigor at you.The only reason for the protective gear from a fiction point of view is to keep them safe from the fire, and from a gameplay point of view it's to give them tank damage and make them immediately noticeable in a crowd. The crow is much the same, but can warp around avoiding damage instead of tanking it. I'm sure other people could chug the vigors and use them at will as Booker does, but the enemies have adopted that particular vigor as their "thing", it seems. The weird thing is why the Vox don't all chug 9 vigors at once and turn themselves into an army of superhumans, that'd be an easy way to tip the balance of war in your favour.

is there a NG+?

No, but 1999 mode is pretty great. A second playthrough will open your eyes to how many hints and nods at the wider premise are stuffed throughout the game. It's a joy to run through a second time.

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