Bioshock: Infinite - New E3 Demo - Post #307

[angel]

disagree about daisy, and yes liz is partially, but thats ok.

[Meh]

She wasn't partially, at all.

There was nothing wrong with her brain; her skull had been pierced, but that was all.

Why do you disagree about Daisy?

[angel]

He tapped it in and thats what triggered the response of seeing the ace in the hole. daisy i didnt find sympathetic at all i thought she was an idiot, threatening finks kid for the greater good was a decent addition i thought.

[Meh]

He caused a lot of pain, and that's what caused it, as far as I can tell. She didn't seem remotely brain-damaged. RE: Daisy - just because you can't sympathise with a character, doesn't make them an idiot. She knew how to drum up support, gather an army... and she seemed to do it mostly by herself. That isn't an idiot.

[angel]

no, i think she was an idiot, i didnt like any part of her character, her treatment of other characters, i thought she was 100% awful.

[squirtle]

Just finished both parts of the DLC. Better than most games. Incredible stuff.

[Meh]

wat

[squirtle]

Meh?

[angel]

wat

Its just you, you misery.

[Mentazm]

Completed Ep1 a few weeks back, and Ep 2 this week. I though they were both better than anything in the entire main BI game, giving me some of that creepy BS1 feeling back. I still don't like Elizabeth though, she feels tacked on to the entire series. It would have been a much better game if it was just about Ryan's dream and Fontaine's reality.

[Nicky]

angel,

he explicitly states one more tap and he's through then she freaks out and remembers.

Personally, i loved it. the mirror scene looked incredible

[Meh]

The mirror scene really was some Pixar-looking shit. I was massively impressed.

[rumblecat]

I was pretty disappointed with the DLC story. The gameplay was fine, quite enjoyed the stealth stuff, didn't actually kill anyone until the final group of bad guys when I remembered how much fun the radar gun + group of enemies could be. But as for the story-

it just felt like an unnecessary attempt to tie together two worlds that already had some nice little links between them. The whole thing about the scientists and tears was great- having Elizabeth being the person who kicks off the whole Bioshock game felt a wee bit like fan fiction.

It didn't really make the story of either game seem stronger for it- and the idea that she was doing it all for a girl called Sally felt forced and rushed, especially when compared to DLC like Minerva's Den which told a simple but powerful little story with a great twist in a much better way. I guess Sally is technically her (half?) sister though... maybe if I'd thought about it more I'd have been more engaged in what was going on.

Also it felt a bit underwhelming. She basically just got an activation code which Fontaine would have probably managed to get eventually-without her help and Suchon would have still been alive so he would have translated them. I suppose after all the build up across the two DLCs, the punchline being "I got you the activation code" wasn't all that thrilling.

Two big thumbs up for the Sander Cohen bunny moment though. Even though I suspected something was going to happen, it still put the shits up me.

Having said all that, I've loved playing games in the Bioshock world- the art, the atmosphere, the fact that even when the stories don't work, they're still trying to do something interesting... I hope 2K continue the series, I wouldn't even be against more games set in Rapture- I guess it must still be down there, somewhere.

[Meh]

The story fucks with Infinite's main storyline hugely, in bad ways. Sure, Infinite wasn't watertight stuff, but it felt like the universe had its own 'rules'.

Now, correct me if I'm wrong - and I often am - but surely the point of Elizabeth(s) drowning Booker at the end of Infinite was to sever that whole 'branch' and cause it - and her - to never have existed in the first place? I can accept that the whole baptism thing could occur in a million million realities, though, possibly for other reasons - so that's not what irks me the most.

Elizabeth - in her I SEE EVERYTHING state - claims that she's killed 'the final Comstock'. Great. I'm glad for you, Liz - but then how can you go to Columbia to get some fancy bit of equipment... when Columbia no longer exists in any universe (or, at least, any universe where it's established by Comstock)? "But Elizabeth exists!" you might say - and that, too, makes no sense - but she's a god-like paradox thingy, seemingly removed from any consequence of tinkering with timelines and universes. Or at least until a Big Daddy comes for her, when she stupidly forgets she can go anywhere, anytime.

[Meh]

I was pretty disappointed with the DLC story. The gameplay was fine, quite enjoyed the stealth stuff, didn't actually kill anyone until the final group of bad guys when I remembered how much fun the radar gun + group of enemies could be. But as for the story-

it just felt like an unnecessary attempt to tie together two worlds that already had some nice little links between them. The whole thing about the scientists and tears was great- having Elizabeth being the person who kicks off the whole Bioshock game felt a wee bit like fan fiction.

It didn't really make the story of either game seem stronger for it- and the idea that she was doing it all for a girl called Sally felt forced and rushed, especially when compared to DLC like Minerva's Den which told a simple but powerful little story with a great twist in a much better way. I guess Sally is technically her (half?) sister though... maybe if I'd thought about it more I'd have been more engaged in what was going on.

Also it felt a bit underwhelming. She basically just got an activation code which Fontaine would have probably managed to get eventually-without her help and Suchon would have still been alive so he would have translated them. I suppose after all the build up across the two DLCs, the punchline being "I got you the activation code" wasn't all that thrilling.

Two big thumbs up for the Sander Cohen bunny moment though. Even though I suspected something was going to happen, it still put the shits up me.

Having said all that, I've loved playing games in the Bioshock world- the art, the atmosphere, the fact that even when the stories don't work, they're still trying to do something interesting... I hope 2K continue the series, I wouldn't even be against more games set in Rapture- I guess it must still be down there, somewhere.

Rapture kind of blew up, though. Episode 2 made me never want to go back there, anyway.

[rumblecat]

Shit, when did it blow up? Was that at the end of Bioshock 2? I can't remember much after the Little Sister sequence...

[Meh]

Yep, right at the end. All the buildings start to collapse.

[rumblecat]

That does sound familiar now, yeah...

Just remembered I've not downloaded and played Clash in the Clouds at all. Any good?

[waddie]

Elizabeth - in her I SEE EVERYTHING state - claims that she's killed 'the final Comstock'. Great. I'm glad for you, Liz - but then how can you go to Columbia to get some fancy bit of equipment... when Columbia no longer exists in any universe (or, at least, any universe where it's established by Comstock)?

She killed the final Comstock after he'd founded Columbia. He was hiding out in Rapture as Booker DeWitt out of guilt after decapitating his version of Anna when he tried to pull her through the tear, which takes place after he's established the flying city. His Columbia still existed.

I assume one version of everything had to survive the end of Bioshock Infinite to prevent a paradox - if she didn't exist, Booker wouldn't have drowned before the baptism, so she would exist, and Booker would drown before the baptism, so she wouldn't exist, so…

The quantum state collapsed just far enough for the entire story to be possible.

and the idea that she was doing it all for a girl called Sally felt forced and rushed. I guess Sally is technically her (half?) sister though... maybe if I'd thought about it more I'd have been more engaged in what was going on.

Also it felt a bit underwhelming. She basically just got an activation code which Fontaine would have probably managed to get eventually-without her help and Suchon would have still been alive so he would have translated them. I suppose after all the build up across the two DLCs, the punchline being "I got you the activation code" wasn't all that thrilling.

She wasn't just doing it for Sally - her fixation on Sally was her version of Booker's "bring us the girl and wipe away the debt" reconstructed memories when she arrived in a reality where she'd died. She was doing it to set in motion the events of Bioshock which would result in all the Little Sisters being saved. It wasn't just the code - Suchong had defected to Ryan after Fontaine was shut down, so he wouldn't have helped Atlas, and Atlas was trapped in a sunken building with no way out.

She could see every version of reality and "behind one door", she saw Jack. There was no other way to save them. Without her intervention, Jack never comes to Rapture and the Little Sisters are never rescued.

[Yewone]

Must admit having read some of these theories, SO much of the story went totally over my head!

.. and that's despite completing every game and piece of DLC in the series! :unsure;

[Harsin]

I quite liked the first episode of BaS, thought the second part started intriguing then went into a downward spiral. It felt like expanded universe from Star Wars, or a similar franchise, where someone had gone through an existing property with a toothcoombe to try and spot the slightest cracks in the narrative so they could fill them with a dollop of unnecessary Infinite flavoured polyfilla.

The Daisy Fitzroy retcon to try and assuage critisim of that aspect of Infinite's story was some seriously dumb shit.

[Meh]

She killed the final Comstock after he'd founded Columbia. He was hiding out in Rapture as Booker DeWitt out of guilt after decapitating his version of Anna when he tried to pull her through the tear, which takes place after he's established the flying city. His Columbia still existed.

I assume one version of everything had to survive the end of Bioshock Infinite to prevent a paradox - if she didn't exist, Booker wouldn't have drowned before the baptism, so she would exist, and Booker would drown before the baptism, so she wouldn't exist, so…

The quantum state collapsed just far enough for the entire story to be possible.

She wasn't just doing it for Sally - her fixation on Sally was her version of Booker's "bring us the girl and wipe away the debt" reconstructed memories when she arrived in a reality where she'd died. She was doing it to set in motion the events of Bioshock which would result in all the Little Sisters being saved. It wasn't just the code - Suchong had defected to Ryan after Fontaine was shut down, so he wouldn't have helped Atlas, and Atlas was trapped in a sunken building with no way out.

She could see every version of reality and "behind one door", she saw Jack. There was no other way to save them. Without her intervention, Jack never comes to Rapture and the Little Sisters are never rescued.

But then what are the Vox fighting against in the Columbia you end up in? It sure won't be that final Comstock's universe you end up in - though I suppose you could argue that Fink and others could keep the thing going, and similar events to occur - but in that universe there's also a Booker helping an Elizabeth, when surely all Elizabeths would become that one single Elizabeth you're controlling at that point (though I suppose that only really refers to the ones that reached their full crazy god-like powers).

Another thing that doesn't gel with me is: why did Elizabeth need to fuck around with Rapture Comstock? Why was he even allowed to become a thing at all? She's this god-like being, and surely she could've just went back to whenever he becomes Comstock and have him killed in some way.

I quite liked the first episode of BaS, thought the second part started intriguing then went into a downward spiral. It felt like expanded universe from Star Wars, or a similar franchise, where someone had gone through an existing property with a toothcoombe to try and spot the slightest cracks in the narrative so they could fill them with a dollop of unnecessary Infinite flavoured polyfilla.

The Daisy Fitzroy recon to try and assuage critisim of that aspect of Infinite's story was some seriously dumb shit.

That was the most proper shit thing ever. God, I hate BaS2.

[waddie]

But then what are the Vox fighting against in the Columbia you end up in? It sure won't be that final Comstock's universe you end up in - though I suppose you could argue that Fink and others could keep the thing going, and similar events to occur - but in that universe there's also a Booker helping an Elizabeth, when surely all Elizabeths would become that one single Elizabeth you're controlling at that point (though I suppose that only really refers to the ones that reached their full crazy god-like powers).

Like I said, there had to be one of everything left at the end of Infinite for the story to make sense. The point of Infinite was averting the versions of the future in which Elizabeth takes on the mantle of messiah and destroys the world from her flying citadel of evil. At least one version of the universe where the Infinite story happened still had to exist so that Elizabeth would exist and have the motivation and will to go back to the baptism and drown Booker. But that's fine, because that version of Elizabeth never goes on to destroy the world.

Another thing that doesn't gel with me is: why did Elizabeth need to fuck around with Rapture Comstock? Why was he even allowed to become a thing at all? She's this god-like being, and surely she could've just went back to whenever he becomes Comstock and have him killed in some way.

Revenge - she experienced everything every version of Elizabeth did, including being decapitated as a result of his actions, so she wanted him to suffer and to know why it was happening. She specifically reflects on it at Fink's with that whole "we're all as fucked up as each other, I can't break the cycle" speech. Her guilt at exploiting the Little Sisters for petty vengeance and then leaving them to their fate is what drives her to trade her fantasy version of Paris for certain death in Rapture.

I'm not saying it's a great story or anything but, if you pay attention, it's more or less internally consistent.

[Smitty]

[Unofficial Who]

Is Clash in the Clouds worth playing? To me the combat is the worst thing about the series, don't know if I can be arsed with it.

I loved the multiplayer in Bioshock 2 until I kept getting ganked by lag cheaters over and over. I wasn't a big fan of the combat in Bioshock Infinite.

But...since I already had CitC as part of the cheapo season pass I've given it a go and it's making me re-evaluate my views on the combat. CitC is basically an arcade mode set in small arenas with no camping spots. And the best bit is that at the start of each round you're set a challenge like "use shotgun only" or "use only traps" that give you big bonuses for passing them. (If you fail the ribbon challenge you still go to the next stage.)

This money can be put towards perks or towards populating the small museum to the side.

I wouldn't go out of your way to buy it but it's worth trying out if you already have it.

[PK]

Oddly enough I agree with most of his observations about the game but they highlight the main reason I enjoyed it so much. I actually liked the dissonance between the emotive, intelligent scenes between characters and the "let's strafe in a circle and blow things up" mechanics. It reminded me of old FPS games which compartmentalise things like that; I actually quite being made to make your way through 20 minutes of twitch gameplay to get to the next five minutes of narrative. It's simplistic but it's fun, and Bioshock Infinite does the story bits so well that it compels you to carry on. I haven't stayed up all night to complete a game in one setting since Half Life 2, which presents itself in exactly the same way.

I don't think he's right when he says that Bioshock has ambitions to be an "effecting" game. It's just a mechanically sound FPS with a really strong story.

[Smitty]

I don't think he's right when he says that Bioshock has ambitions to be an "effecting" game. It's just a mechanically sound FPS with a really strong story.

Um, i'm pretty sure various statements by the games creator's would completely contradict that.

[PK]

Steve Gaynor (who made Gone Home) interviewed Ken Levine on his most recent Tone Control podcast: https://www.idlethumbs.net/tonecontrol/

I haven't listened to it yet but the description says they discuss "System Shock, System Shock 2, Freedom Force, BioShock, BioShock 2: Minerva's Den, BioShock Infinite, Gone Home"

[Mentazm]

The only game in the series where I cared about the story was the first. They made a mistake introducing Elizabeth imo, I didn't give a shit about her or her dumb storyline.

[Meh]

You take that back!