We don't like waggle

[TheSlugFormerlyKnownAsNap]

I've been accused of being an anti-Nintendo fanboy.

I've been accused of being a Microsoft fanboy. I even had a good word for the PS3 when it was still The Enemy, although I disliked the idea of Sixaxis.

However, this is not the case. I don't feel very strong allegiance to a brand or manufacturer, I just want to play games that push the envelope and that fill me with a giddy sense of exhilaration, thrills and immersion. From the very first announcements, I've had my doubts about the Wii. I aired them in the 'Exciting Wiitails'-thread, and got shred to bits for it at the time. People soon came round though.

Now we have Move, we have Kinect and the Wii is still amongst us. Personally, I think it's all rubbish. I think that Waggle Has To Die. I don't want to flail, I don't want to stand around waving my arms, I don't want to point at screens and I don't want to shake, move, wave or other motiontastic shit to get stuff done.

WAGGLE MUST DIE.

Now who's with me?

[GViper]

Not me.

Sorry, but I think it can be great fun. Wii Sports Resort with a few mates is one good example, and in a normal game context, No More Heroes is perfect useage of waggletech.

Not saying that a good 90% of waggle is unnecessary and shit, because it is, but when it's done well I quite enjoy it.

Actually, one extra thing I'll say is who had a load of mates round to play a bowling game before Wii Sports?

[Harsin]

Actually, one extra thing I'll say is who had a load of mates round to play a bowling game before Wii Sports?

That guy out of Kingpin?

[GViper]

That guy out of Kingpin?

Real life people?

[Wickedkitten]

The last time I had friends over we played MW2 and Tv Show King. I do like Waggle though but in its place. Bowling though, if we were going to go bowling, we would just go bowling, not play it with waggle.

[Sigourney Beaver]

Not me. When it's used well it enhances gaming greatly. Like in Wii Sports, you almost forget about the controller and just do the motion. Perfect.

[A Hen]

I was a massive Nintendo fanboy in the N64 era. The Gamecube, which I was wetting myself over, was a bit of a let-down, but I liked it well enough. Then, when I heard about the Wii, I was delighted - it seemed like Nintendo were back on innovative form, and this time it was a huge hit. I was pleased that it might open up gaming to a wider audience, and to a certain extent, it has probably done this.

However, despite the early promise, I feel my hopes were built up for nowt - Wii Sports is about the only game I've played where waggle was any good (OK, it was alright in Zelda), and the Wii has the biggest quotient of shovel-ware imaginable. I'm a bit peeved that all these new players, if they do pick up a game from the shelves, will almost certainly be ripped off with crap, and be put off gaming (a bit like how most people think board games equal Monopoly, because it dominates the shelves, and therefore think board games are boring).

[b00dles]

I think it's got a place certainly (no, not in the bin) but there is just a little bit too much 'oooooo, motion controls!' going on at the moment, I'm sure it will settle down and we'll have optional waggle ability or ones where it works together. I still think that Kinect with facial recognition, even some voice stuff, could work well in a game where you actually do all the movement etc with a controller. Fable III might do something clever with it but it is Molyneux, so who knows.

[GViper]

I was a massive Nintendo fanboy in the N64 era. The Gamecube, which I was wetting myself over, was a bit of a let-down, but I liked it well enough. Then, when I heard about the Wii, I was delighted - it seemed like Nintendo were back on innovative form, and this time it was a huge hit. I was pleased that it might open up gaming to a wider audience, and to a certain extent, it has probably done this.

However, despite the early promise, I feel my hopes were built up for nowt - Wii Sports is about the only game I've played where waggle was any good (OK, it was Zelda in OK), and the Wii has the biggest quotient of shovel-ware imaginable. I'm a bit peeved that all these new players, if they do pick up a game from the shelves, will almost certainly be ripped off with crap, and be put off gaming (a bit like how most people think board games equal Monopoly, and therefore think they're boring).

But there are plenty of games with decent waggleocity, how many have you given a good go? Have a read of the main Wii thread to find some of the better games in it.

Oh and Monopoly is the shit, 'fuck you talkin' bout?

[Talk Show Host]

I don't want it to die.

I want serious developers to stop wasting time on it.

[Masu]

[Fugitive]

Whoa! All the different ways in which Peter Sutcliffe can kill virtual prostitutes with Move is incredible!

[A Hen]

Oh and Monopoly is the shit, 'fuck you talkin' bout?

If you like it, that's fine, but it's a shame that more people don't know about the games that have been developed in the decades since Monopoly, that have evolved more elegant design.

In case you're wondering, some of the criticisms of monopoly (as a representative of board games in a family situation) are as follows: It's pretty punishing for a "family" game. It's long-winded, knocks people out (so they end up sitting on the side-lines while the other players continue), is very confrontational (you're trying to bankrupt your rivals). It's also very luck-based. There are many, many arguably much better board games, either very in-depth ones or more relaxed, family-friendly ones (that still have depth) and can be completed in a reasonable time, and it's a shame that mainstream shops are full of Monopoly variants or poor TV show spin-offs.

[alxbly]

Wii was my first console of this generation and Wii Sports was great but unfortunately it's one of the few games I've played where waggle genuinely adds to the game. Sadly, a lot of games have motion controls forced into them and forced motion controls are usually are shit; it's ruined so many Wii games. Pointer control can be a different story, and games like RE4 genuinely benefit from it, but there's still a lot of shooters that get it so wrong. Before the Nintendo squad start on me, I've got about 25 Wii games, I've probably traded or sold as many, and there's only about half a dozen at most that have made any real impressions on me. It's not that I've not tried a lot of games on the Wii (because I have) but they mainly don't click with me.

Anyway, I'm treating Kinect and Move with extreme caution until I see if they're gonna be used properly or just for party game compilations. Fair play to anyone who enjoys waggle, but personally I think that it's been little more than gimmicky shite so far.

[SMD]

The irony of the Wii is that because of the waggle it's actually forced Nintendo into making the most comfortable control configuration. Being able to have two halves of a controller in either hand is the most comfortable method, without the pointing.

I don't think that the Wii has fulfilled its potential which is why I'm not interested in Kinect or Move. I don't think they'll really be worth it until the next generation, so I'll wait till the inevitable sale, cheers.

[MK-1601]

I don't want to flail, I don't want to stand around waving my arms, I don't want to point at screens and I don't want to shake, move, wave or other motiontastic shit to get stuff done.

It's ridiculous that people are still putting cursor-based motion controls and novelty gestural controls in the same bracket (with the convenient "Ignore my opinions, for I am indeed a cunt" shorthand label of "waggle") in 2010.

"The N64 controller had an analogue stick and was a stupid, unwieldy shape. You see how these things are intrinsically related? Ergo I am compelled to shit the bed on the internet about how they're taking my safe, comforting digital controls away."

LOL, get with the times granddad.

[GViper]

If we don't like Waggle and you don't like Waggle, why not, not Waggle together?

[Mr. Gerbik]

It's ridiculous that people are still putting cursor-based motion controls and novelty gestural controls in the same bracket (with the convenient "Ignore my opinions, for I am indeed a cunt" shorthand label of "waggle") in 2010.

You can facepalm all you want, but I'm the same: I don't like gestural controls and I don't like pointy controls, but instead of spelling it out every single time, I just say "I don't like waggle" with most people understanding that it's an easy catch-all derogatory term for pointing, flailing, waving, and shaking.

Some people don't like waggle. And with waggle I mean pointing and motion and everything. I'll take a normal controller or a m+kb over motion and pointing every single time. Deal with it.

[RubberJohnny]

It's worth sticking Majora's post of truth in here

Yes but the point is that when Microsoft only show off casual stuff for Kinect they're bitched at, and when they show off 'core' games for Kinect they're bitched at because people want to use a controller. So basically they can't win and are in the same position the Wii found itself in when people moaned there were no games, then moaned when it got games because people wanted them in HD and with no waggle. The default position of the forum is that they want games in HD and with a traditional controller, but a lot of people won't admit this and so try to make it sound like they'd really like the Wii or Kinect if only they had the right games which has been shown to be bollocks time and time again.

It reminds me of scottcrs' thing about how a fan of film is someone who can enjoy various types of movie, from arthouse to blockbuster on their own merits, but being a hardcore gamer just means you like big shiny HD games with pretty graphics and ignore everything else. You can profess to like something outside of that, but as the post above demonstrates, it's just a facade.

"Do you like art games?"

"Yeah the ones with pretty graphics and big marketing budgets like Ico and SotC that we can have a nice circlejerk about, but talk about indie stuff and I'll draw a blank."

Gamers are close-minded, as demonstrated by this and like a dozen other issues.

EDIT: Before I get negged to hell, it's worth clarifying, I've got nothing against Ico and SotC as games, I'm glad they exist and that games like that can still survive in the retail market, as anyone knows on my various rants - I'm a big fan of variety. But seriously, they're hardly the be-all-and-end-all, and their frequent namedropping as shorthand for "games are art, yeah?" is grating.

[Charliemouse]

I fucking hate waggle , I play games to relex , not to spaz about like I am waiting for my next hit of crack.

[Blue]

You can profess to like something outside of that, but as the post above demonstrates, it's just a facade.

There may be an element of truth to Majora's post, there may not, but it doesn't "demonstrate" anything. It's merely an opinion. I think the forum has shown much love for many indie games. A good game is a good game.

[___]

You'd clearly have to be mental to lump effortless, accurate pointing in with waggle (although I do love reading apoplectic outbursts from people who go on about it as if you need to stand up with your arm out in front of you).

Waggle only annoys me when something which you can clearly tell has been mapped inappropriately within 5 minutes of playing a game somehow manages to make its way through untold hours of playtesting without being removed. I'm looking at you, de Blob.

Motion controls, other than the twisting and tilting which have been well utilised by some, have mostly been a non-event on the Wii outside of Nintendo's own showcase games. I'm hoping other developers who shunned the Wii will finally put their imaginations to work developing some great motion control game concepts now that they can work on them with an even more accurate controller in the Move on an HD console.

[SMD]

Yeah but quite a few people will moan that a game shouldn't be on the Wii because the graphics aren't as good and it has 'waggle'.

[MK-1601]

It reminds me of scottcrs' thing about how a fan of film is someone who can enjoy various types of movie, from arthouse to blockbuster on their own merits, but being a hardcore gamer just means you like big shiny HD games with pretty graphics and ignore everything else. You can profess to like something outside of that, but as the post above demonstrates, it's just a facade.

This is exactly how I would define a 'hardcore' gamer, back when it meant seeking new experiences (importing, pirating, playing shit that was completely aimed at different demographics purely for the gameplay) rather than the marketing bastardisation of the term to mean 'sticks to what they're spoonfed, calls people "faggot" online'. The day Mario Kart was described by some joker as not being a "hardcore" game was the exact moment the word became meaningless.

[Blue]

Every time there's a discussion on motion control, MK-1601 and RubberJohnny get utterly aggressive, condescending, arrogant, and dismissive of any anti-motion-control viewpoints.

[masterhand]

It's worth sticking Majora's post of truth in here

It reminds me of scottcrs' thing about how a fan of film is someone who can enjoy various types of movie, from arthouse to blockbuster on their own merits, but being a hardcore gamer just means you like big shiny HD games with pretty graphics and ignore everything else. You can profess to like something outside of that, but as the post above demonstrates, it's just a facade.

"Do you like art games?"

"Yeah the ones with pretty graphics and big marketing budgets like Ico and SotC that we can have a nice circlejerk about, but talk about indie stuff and I'll draw a blank."

Gamers are close-minded, as demonstrated by this and like a dozen other issues.

Take a fan of film and force them to watch every new film in 3D with the glasses and sit on a big vibrating chair with wind, fine water mist and smells sprayed on them as the film is playing becuase "thats better and immerses you in the film" and I think you'll find them just as dissaproving. Despite what the box office takings are of these "new films"

[TheSlugFormerlyKnownAsNap]

The main mistake the Waggle Defence Force makes is that they assume the 'hardcore' dismisses waggle because it's new and different. That they never wanted to try it or never gave it chance.

The opposite is true though, I think most of us decided upon its shiteness after extensive play and having our nose burned too often.

[MK-1601]

The main mistake the Waggle Defence Force makes is that they assume the 'hardcore' dismisses waggle because it's new and different. That they never wanted to try it or never gave it chance.

The opposite is true though, I think most of us decided upon its shiteness after extensive play and having our nose burned too often.

Is poor taste supposed to be better than blissful ignorance?

[TheSlugFormerlyKnownAsNap]

I don't know, both seem to be pretty bad to me.

[CurryKitten]

Waggle has its place, and it's for showing you mum/gran/random old person how you can pretend to play tennis on Wii Sports. In other words quick novelty games. In *all* other cases they should not be used... I particularly hate the cases in which they've been forced into a normal game, such as the Mario Galaxys where having the waggle to do a spin is the worlds most inprecise thing, or Zelda where we had the utterly pointless bow and arrow shooting. A real controller would have worked much better.

I thought the PS3 might be a safe area, but right in the middle of button basher "Heavenly Sword" we're suddenly shooting arrows and having to tilt them around things with the 6-axis controller. The worse thing is that that game expected you to be holding you controller absolutely flat, as I was relaxing back in a chair playing, my controller was also tilted back - and as such my arrows shot straight up into the air.

Waggle, stamp it out.