We don't like waggle

[Sprite Machine]

No, I wouldn't. I am not criticising the controls. That's another issue altogether.

Well, that's the topic of the thread.

I am criticizing the fact that waggle people don't seem to accept there are other people who just don't like the waggle controls and they prefer the standard pad.

What you said was the reason for their dislike was the games they were playing. I simply pointed out that the implementation and the concept are different things.

I can totally accept people disliking the implementation of motion controls. Even every single example of motion controls.

I cannot accept anyone disliking the entire concept of motion controls for any application, in any form, ever, full-stop.

It's not blinkered and ignorant if it's a control method we don't enjoy.

Any implementation of it, in any form, in any context, for any application, anywhere, without exception, ever?

[RubberJohnny]

I think all this thread is achieving is pointing out that people who don't like waggle are really hypocritical.

"I don't like it because they're designed around the device, not like Guitar Hero!"

[Transient Curse]

Interesting, I've not heard this point made before. Do elaborate.

Rubbish! I've made that point a number of times.

You should totally get on board with Rock Band btw. It's not a sad simulation, it's a fun game!

[Nate Dogg III]

There are only three things on this forum that annoy me more than the word 'waggle' and that's the overuse of semicolons, people putting names of games and magazines in italics, and the fucking notion of an unused games console 'collecting dust'. Sure when I turn the 360 on I lift the machine up and shake it around so that any built up dust comes off.

Almost everything in my house collects dust. I regularly remove it with the use of a 'duster'. I think Game sell one that slots into the bottom of the Wii remote for fifteen quid but cheaper options are available.,

Anyway I also find that motion controls have by and large been a disappointment. I also sort of agree with Nap about pointing being uncomfortable - I actually find the Wii's split controller the most comfortable pad ever for sitting back maxin', but as soon as I have to point it at the screen my wrist starts to ache. I suspect seating position, room layout and relative height of the TV can affect this though so I understand not everyone gets it.

But as has been pointed out, just as waggle can fail, so can normal controls. I'm trying my damnedest to get through Killzone 2 at the moment and putting aside the fact that the title and loading screens move according to the position of the sixaxis (which bellend thought THAT up?) how I yearn for a pointer, or at least a 360 pad, as no amount of sensitivity tweaking is going to sort out those dead zones.

tldr version: stop putting things in italics and Killzone 2 is rubbish.

[Smitty]

Not actually played the Wii version, but from images it looks like the fact they made the aiming reticule much larger than the original red laser dot that probably unbalanced it.

That too.

Once, say, the thrill of skilfully shooting an axe out of the air becomes almost as easy as looking at it, you've lost me.

I don't have spazzy jazz hands and I don't like games to practically play themselves.

[Kelthink]

Interesting, I've not heard this point made before. Do elaborate.

A lot of people have said it. It makes the game a lot easier, that's for sure.

[Smitty]

Smitty is the only person on earth who thinks this way...

RE4 on Wii is gaming nirvana.

Bless you Scottcr, but you love any old shit.

It's fine for the casuals but it felt like a step backward to me.

[Talk Show Host]

I think all this thread is achieving is pointing out that people who don't like waggle are really hypocritical.

There it is again.

[Davros sock drawer]

Rubbish! I've made that point a number of times.

You should totally get on board with Rock Band btw. It's not a sad simulation, it's a fun game!

Your sarcasm filter is broken Rich!

Rock Band is hideous, I don't know how you (as a real guitarist) can get on with it. All it makes me want to do is play real guitar, which I suppose is something. The drums are somehow even worse, and I can barely play real drums.

I didn't mind spectating The Beatles version, but when I try to play it my fingers keep trying to play all the notes I would on the guitar. Scrambles my brain.

[Smitty]

In fact, far from hating waggle, I still find myself playing button-based games and wishing they were on the Wii.

RDR for example would have been even better if you had to flick the wiimote to whip your horse instead of tapping A (boring), and wiimote aiming would have been lovely.

Yes, it would be fun making a whipping motion 15,564 times.

[___]

RE4 wasn't built for the Wii from the ground up so the accuracy advantages of the pointer unbalance the gameplay to it's detriment.

It certainly unbalanced it - the shooting galleries and the cable car section made it obvious just how much if you'd played the original - but I don't feel it was to its detriment overall. It felt more like RE4: Asskicking Edition to me, even as someone who'd already played through it repeatedly on the GC. Claiming that it practically plays itself is absurd hyperbole.

Anyway, my point was that Nap mentioned a future version of Uncharted using Move as if it would be a bad thing (bundling it in with a hypothetical Kinect Halo of all things), when it's already been shown how well that control scheme works for 3rd person shooters. Since Capcom decided to concentrate on lightgun-style games with the Resident Evil series on the Wii rather than building on the success of RE4:Wii, it would be nice to see someone create a top-class 3rd person shooter from the ground up with those controls.

[Davros sock drawer]

Yes, it would be fun making a whipping motion 15,564 times.

More fun than pressing a button, yes.

I'm serious, and I bet all you waggle fearing losers really hate that. Don't worry, no-one's going to stop making boring old button mashers just yet. But I'd love it if they did.

[Wickedkitten]

but TV Show King is a wii game???

TV Show King on the PLAYSTATION THREE

[Hewson]

Because resources are limited. The more developers move (lol) to Waggle based titles, the less likely they'll work on something I like. I used to love the Rayman games for example, but that went completely to shit after the developers decided to create Raving Rabbids minigames instead.

But the major companies put out endless piles of mediocre to terrible 'hard core' games too. The world might well be a better place personally if Dark Sector, Heavy Rain, Bionic Commando and Mafia II had all instead been totally different games with well considered motion control.

[Davros sock drawer]

PLAYSTATION THREE

Worst console ever.

[Transient Curse]

Your sarcasm filter is broken Rich!

Rock Band is hideous, I don't know how you (as a real guitarist) can get on with it. All it makes me want to do is play real guitar, which I suppose is something. The drums are somehow even worse, and I can barely play real drums.

I didn't mind spectating The Beatles version, but when I try to play it my fingers keep trying to play all the notes I would on the guitar. Scrambles my brain.

Curses!

As it goes, I only play Drums, however, I do looooove playing real drums. This could be why I looooooove Rock Band so much. Agree on the guitar thing.

Worst console ever.

[Wickedkitten]

Worst console ever.

So bad that even King of the Haters Shimmyhill has bought one three times

[RubberJohnny]

There it is again.

Yes clearly in this thread that's hating on waggle, the anti-waggle folk are the victims. Well done.

Maybe you should post something that counters Majoras assertion, Talk Show Host, rather than insincere assertions of how hurt you are by the bad men saying nasty things.

[Smitty]

Please can we stop this charicaturing of gamers being closed-minded.

Personally I was extremely excited about the possibilities of motion control when the Wii was announced. The reality was that the end results were disappointing.

But that is my opinion thus far. Perhaps motion based gaming can prove its intrinsic worth to me eventually, it is possibly more likely on an console that isn't lumbered with last generations power, that isn't packed with casual-focussed shovelware rubbish.

[Sprite Machine]

Rock Band is hideous

Worst console ever.

I'm sorry, Davros. It's over.

[Davros sock drawer]

So bad that even King of the Haters Shimmyhill has bought one three times

I've only bought it once. It's a nice Blu Ray player.

[Majora]

No, I wouldn't. I am not criticising the controls. That's another issue altogether.

I am criticizing the fact that waggle people don't seem to accept there are other people who just don't like the waggle controls and they prefer the standard pad.

Labelling those people just "HD whores" is simply wrong.

I never said they're just HD whores, or that there are people who dislike the Wii just because it doesn't output in HD, but there seems to be a pretty significant overlap between the two from what I can see on this forum. People often throw the graphics/HD things on the end just to whine even more. 'Oh why is game x on the Wii, why couldn't it use a proper controller and have nice graphics?' etc...

But the HD discussion is besides the point really. People should be judging each game on their own merits. I could draw up a list of about equal length of games which used the Wii's capabilities well and those that didn't, the issue is that there are a lot of people who have shut-down any idea that motion control or pointing can ever be used well. And for a forum that is pretty tech-savvy that seems awfully closed minded and a shame. Face it, there's a whole generation of kids growing up for whom motion control and pointing is the norm, it isn't going anywhere and eventually all the 'proper controllers' people are going to sound like dinosaurs going on about how things were back in the day.

[Camel]

I didn't mind spectating The Beatles version, but when I try to play it my fingers keep trying to play all the notes I would on the guitar. Scrambles my brain.

I have this problem with Street Fighter IV. I try to play with the pad but I keep throwing fireballs across the living room instead.

[Sprite Machine]

Please can we stop this charicaturing of gamers being closed-minded.

Many of them are; it's a fair comment.

EDIT: Added a semi-colon to annoy Nate.

[Davros sock drawer]

I never said they're just HD whores, or that there are people who dislike the Wii just because it doesn't output in HD, but there seems to be a pretty significant overlap between the two from what I can see on this forum. People often throw the graphics/HD things on the end just to whine even more. 'Oh why is game x on the Wii, why couldn't it use a proper controller and have nice graphics?' etc...

But the HD discussion is besides the point really. People should be judging each game on their own merits. I could draw up a list of about equal length of games which used the Wii's capabilities well and those that didn't, the issue is that there are a lot of people who have shut-down any idea that motion control or pointing can ever be used well. And for a forum that is pretty tech-savvy that seems awfully closed minded and a shame. Face it, there's a whole generation of kids growing up for whom motion control and pointing is the norm, it isn't going anywhere and eventually all the 'proper controllers' people are going to sound like dinosaurs going on about how things were back in the day.

Love you.

[___]

I never said they're just HD whores, or that there are people who dislike the Wii just because it doesn't output in HD, but there seems to be a pretty significant overlap between the two from what I can see on this forum. People often throw the graphics/HD things on the end just to whine even more. 'Oh why is game x on the Wii, why couldn't it use a proper controller and have nice graphics?' etc...

NeoGAF is full of 'em; so much so that port begging has become a bannable offence. The Dolphin emulator thread seems to have plenty of people griping that they'd play the games people with monstrously powerful PCs are posting HD screenshots of, if only they were available in HD.

[TheSlugFormerlyKnownAsNap]

Any implementation of it, in any form, in any context, for any application, anywhere, without exception, ever?

No, I wouldn't go that far. But until I've seen some evidence that things are shaping up for the better, I'll stay in my trench.

[Yoshimax]

I'm wondering how long for the playstation move honeymoon to end and the controllers to be consigned to a cupboard.

I reckon it'll survive off the back of PSN stuff if anything.

[RubberJohnny]

Please can we stop this charicaturing of gamers being closed-minded.

Why? It's a fair assessment as demonstrated by gamers on a number of issues.

See this big post on a backlash to a Metroid Other M review that offered genuine criticism rather than just a buying guide (which it also offered). It's a digression from this discussion but still relevant in the end.

I'm struck by this brouhaha, not because it's new or especially rancorous. If you've seen one flamewar, you've seen them all. But it does illustrate what happens when a writer for a high-profile outlet chooses to address a game critically - I mean when he or she functions as a critic instead of simply a reviewer. All too often the backlash is severe and ugly. It suggests that, for a sizable portion of the gaming audience, genuine criticism is perceived as inappropriate, unnecessary, or even unprofessional.

The point is that, all too often, the greatest resistance to thinking critically about games comes not from academics, luddites, or old-school critics like Roger Ebert. The most vocal resistance comes from gamers.

Gamers are close minded!

In his keynote address at PAX last week, Warren Spector warned that marginalizing casual games and gamers will ultimately limit the industry's ability to grow and mature. I think he's right, but that's only half the story.

Shouting down writers who adopt a principled, intellectual, political, theoretical or other disciplined approach to thinking about a game is ultimately no less self-defeating. There is no single "game culture" anymore, if one ever existed at all. There's a place for everyone at this table.

Words of wisdom there.

[Hawkeye]

I started off as a waggle wanter, but now I'm waggle free.

Bought a Wii at launch and couldn't wait for the revolution, but outside the Wii Sports games for a bit of multiplayer fun now and again there was nothing at all I thought was any better for motion controls, and quite a lot I thought was far worse for it.

I've since sold the Wii and don't miss it at all. Due to my experience with that I have no interest at all with Move.