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Frames Per Second, AA, Tearing etc...


The Mighty Ash
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I dislike tearing, framerate if it's noticeably jerky or stutters but outside that I don't care. I doubt I could even tell the difference between 30fps and 60fps in most games and these days I rarely find AA makes that big a difference.

1 other thing I dislike is how much work seems to go into making shadows look great. Unless it's a game like Thief where shadows matter, I never notice how accurately a shadow is modelled and it seems to be a massive hit to performance. Thankfully I mostly play PC games so I can usually turn their quality down but if I ever played a game on a console that had tearing or choppy framerate but amazing shadows I'd be pissed (or do console games allow you to change graphical details too these days?).

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1 other thing I dislike is how much work seems to go into making shadows look great. Unless it's a game like Thief where shadows matter, I never notice how accurately a shadow is modelled and it seems to be a massive hit to performance. Thankfully I mostly play PC games so I can usually turn their quality down but if I ever played a game on a console that had tearing or choppy framerate but amazing shadows I'd be pissed (or do console games allow you to change graphical details too these days?).

That's a good point, shadows have preference over framerate and resolution these days - the 'blob' sprite shadow isn't acceptable any more, even though shadows have a massive impact on performance.

First thing I do on any PC game is turn the shadows off, you don't notice them being gone really. In fact, some games look better due to not being so damn dark.

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Not to sound like a PC elitist, but once you get used to seeing games running in 60FPS with proper AA, not this fake quincux shit, its very hard to go back. Reach still looks amazing and palys great, and no way would i abandon my console cause they cant do 60FPS or whatever, but i guarantee most of the people saying "it doesnt matter to me" havent actually played a game running at 60FPS. If you had, youd know that yeah, its important, and can really improve your enjoyment of a game. 24 FPS for that castlevania game is shocking tbh

Yeah it's always a horrible jump going back from one after a while on the other. When you see Goldeneye or some of those old games it's so lol. Even the yearly SoTC playthrough is a mess at first. But you get acclimatised pretty quickly, unless it really is almost unplayable like with Perfect Dark. Fuck, I even enjoyed Stunt Race FX back in the day, and Virtua Racingo n the Megadrive. Tearing though, will always piss you off.

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I only found out what tearing was a few years ago. I've noticed it in one or two games since. Before that, I only knew of slowdown (which I kinda like, actually) and jaggies. Neither of which I really notice.

But answer me this, eggheads: what does the frame-rate matter as long as it's above what our eyes can read? I don't understand that.

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I can get really worked up about games without shadows / bad shadows or no reflections where they should be. I think some Japanese gamedevelopers like Team Ninja are cutting corners there to improve framerates.

What's the alternative?, drop something else?, or a janky framerate and greater affect on the playability, which for the sort of games Team Ninja,etc make is quite important.

Consoles=compromise, unfortunately you can't have it all when there is a resource limit, no matter how Ninja you expect coders to be at squeezing every last drop from a fixed hardware spec.

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I don't care too much about AA but I like a consistent framerate. It's okay if that framerate is 30fps.

Tearing on the other hand, I'm very senstive to and think it's one of the worse things about this generation. If a dev is going over budget on a frame, they need to fix it, not just disable vsync.

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I only found out what tearing was a few years ago. I've noticed it in one or two games since. Before that, I only knew of slowdown (which I kinda like, actually) and jaggies. Neither of which particularly bother me.

But answer me this, eggheads: what does the frame-rate matter as long as it's above what our eyes can read? I don't understand that.

Because the human eye can only register up to 60 FPS, anything above that is lost, AFAIK. But, it will completely and totally register something running at 24 FPS as being slow and jerky :lol:

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But answer me this, eggheads: what does the frame-rate matter as long as it's above what our eyes can read? I don't understand that.

Found a bunch of videos on youtube the other day about this, the initial part with the spheres got the reasoning across to me best, the example TF2 footage at the end didn't seem too bad to my eyes.

Oh and personally tearing probably gets me the most, I can live with low frame rates as long as they're consistent but when dips or whatever start to make the game feel unresponsive that's when it'll get annoying.

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Because the human eye can only register up to 60 FPS, anything above that is lost, AFAIK. But, it will completely and totally register something running at 24 FPS as being slow and jerky :lol:

Huh! Since I was a little 'un I've had it in my head the human eye sees approximately 25fps. I just looked it up to check and that's fairly wrong, it's actually way faster (and more complicated) than that.

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What's the alternative?, drop something else?, or a janky framerate and greater affect on the playability, which for the sort of games Team Ninja,etc make is quite important.

Consoles=compromise, unfortunately you can't have it all when there is a resource limit, no matter how Ninja you expect coders to be at squeezing every last drop from a fixed hardware spec.

A new hardware generation :)

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I only found out what tearing was a few years ago. I've noticed it in one or two games since. Before that, I only knew of slowdown (which I kinda like, actually) and jaggies. Neither of which I really notice.

But answer me this, eggheads: what does the frame-rate matter as long as it's above what our eyes can read? I don't understand that.

What?

EDIT: Lol. World view shifted eh? Like you just shattered the Matrix.

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All the people saying that 30fps or whatever is 'clunky' next to 60fps. given that the human reaction time is 0.1-0.2s, surely this is absolute bullshit, since whatever you play shoul update the screen way faster than you can react to. Unless someone has actually lab tested this or something I'm just going to assume it's nonsense. Like those audiophile idiots who swear that their £100 platinum cables make the sound coming out of their speakers better somehow.

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But 60FPS is smoother. This is merely a fact.

Whether or not it bothers you or not is personal. Personally I have loved games like Halo and SOTC (as examples) which had framerate issues. In an ideal world everything would be at least locked 30FPS though. But it's not an ideal world and i'm not usually that bothered by a slower framerate (if we're using 60 as a benchmark), nor the occasional stutter.

Very frequent slow down is annoying though and to be avoided at all costs.

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All the people saying that 30fps or whatever is 'clunky' next to 60fps. given that the human reaction time is 0.1-0.2s, surely this is absolute bullshit, since whatever you play shoul update the screen way faster than you can react to. Unless someone has actually lab tested this or something I'm just going to assume it's nonsense. Like those audiophile idiots who swear that their £100 platinum cables make the sound coming out of their speakers better somehow.

So you are OK with 10-5fps then?

Edit: What about games like the Virtua Fighter series that have crazy 1/60th sec input timing stuff going on?

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It's very easy to see how 60FPS is better than 30FPS - just look at how silky smooth something like COD4 is in comparison to Halo Reach.

I don't think it super important because Halo's got loads more going (in a less superficial way), it looks great etc but would Reach be harmed by making it 60FPS?

No, it could only be an improvement. Of course there are good technical reasons for why they can't, and as I said I think the game looks brilliant and the framerate doesn't bother me, but if Bungie could somehow make it 60FPS that would made a great game even better, just that bit better visually.

It would be cool if a locked 30 FPS could be seen as the standard, though. Castlevania does look a bit choppy at points, but ultimately I don't think i'll be that bothered, and it certainly wouldn't chage my interest in the game.

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All the people saying that 30fps or whatever is 'clunky' next to 60fps. given that the human reaction time is 0.1-0.2s, surely this is absolute bullshit, since whatever you play shoul update the screen way faster than you can react to. Unless someone has actually lab tested this or something I'm just going to assume it's nonsense. Like those audiophile idiots who swear that their £100 platinum cables make the sound coming out of their speakers better somehow.

Played any 60fps racers? or CoD or some other 60fps shooter? or a fighting game running at 60fps?

Mario Kart Wii at 60fps is sublime offline, at 30fps, online, not so much.

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So you are OK with 10-5fps then?

Edit: What about games like the Virtua Fighter series that have crazy 1/60th sec input timing stuff going on?

Well, no, of course not, because 15fps is slower than the rate that the human eye interpolates at as we both know. that's a strawman anyway.

What about it? You'd obviously need 60fps for that to make any sense. It still doesn't answer my question.

EDIT: to clarify I was talking about the people who go on about input lag or whatever affecting how the game controls, not how it actually looks on screen.

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EDIT: to clarify I was talking about the people who go on about input lag or whatever affecting how the game controls, not how it actually looks on screen.

Input lag is measurable, as this article explains, in all its input lag autistic friendly glory:

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-lag-factor-article

same practical effect as net lag, which probably explains why Mario Kart Wii is limited to 30fps in splitscreen online (and it does feel less responsive in my autistic opinion, am I doing it right? :)) compared to offline, where it runs at 60fps.

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Tearing is not a huge problem to me. I must prefer a steady frame rate. Racing games I much prefer to be at 60fps but I won't dismiss one because of it.

I have no problem with jaggies and the like. I still do most of my gaming on PS2 which is full of jaggy visuals.

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Here's the deal with me:

I didn't really care about graphics performance problems when I was just a console gamer. I thought PC gamers were snobby elitist nerds when they talked about 60fps and AA and shit. But then I found myself with a mid-range graphics card for my PC so I could play new-ish games, and suddenly I had to care deeply about graphics.

Because PC games give you so many options to turn on or off, and because you have to decide upon some kind of compromise between quality and framerate, you end up learning what all this shit means. And it drives you crazy if you can't have everything switched on. You want the resolution to be whatever your monitor's native pixels are because that's the only rez that looks sharp. But then you need anti-aliasing at native rez, because the perfect native pixel match looks jaggy without it. But all this hits the framerate the hardest. Then you end up looking in one direction and getting 40fps, then turning to look in another direction and getting 22fps, and thinking "Why the fuck?" Then you turn off smoke effects and that solves that. But then the environment is less believable without the smoke. And then--

These are just some of the reasons I hate PC gaming. I'm far happier on consoles: you switch it on and play whatever the developers decided looks best on an Xbox 360.

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