Rip-off tossers

[JPickford (retired mod)]

the idea that anyone who played both games could plausibly suggest that the author of the second hadn't played the first is simply too farcical.

There's nothing implausible about two different people having exactly the same simple idea over the course of several years. I'm not saying you're wrong, just that you'll have a merry ol' time proving yourself right given that Demon Star has documented the game's creation and obviously has people to back the story up.

I'd advise you to take a "softly softly" approach to get what you want, therefore, but of course it's too late for that now.

It's not exactly the same 'idea' it's exactly the same 'collection of ideas'. It's exremely implausible that someone setting out with same core idea (train spotting) would make ALL the same decisions and implement the exact same play mechanic.

[The Liberal Elite]

Oh, sure, they changed some key elements, i.e. the fact that the player was driving bikes instead of formula 1 cars, but I challenge anyone to say they're not the same concept

3

They're not the same concept.

We've been over this several times already. BMX Simulator had an entirely different play mechanic in terms of how you controlled your vehicle. It also had no power-ups, a major feature of Super Sprint. To name just the two most strikingly obvious differences. (Also: no jumps, no shortcuts, no destruction of your vehicle...) You can hardly copyright the basic idea of racing vehicles round a circuit, otherwise Gran Turismo is a Super Sprint rip-off as well.

For the nth time, the problem is not that Demon Star have written a trainspotting game. It's that they've written OUR trainspotting game.

bollocks - one of the main reasons that I bought it was because it was just like super sprint. even julian Rignall in the zzap review referred to it as a 'scaled down version' of the game. http://s64.emuunlim.com/reviews/bmxsimulator.htm

and what about grand prix simulator? then? that even had formula one cars!

[Rev. Stuart Campbell]

bollocks - one of the main reasons that I bought it was because it was just like super sprint.  even julian Rignall in the zzap review referred to it as a 'scaled down version' of the game. http://s64.emuunlim.com/reviews/bmxsimulator.htm

Let's include the whole quote, shall we?

"This is a bit like a scaled down version of the arcade game Super Sprint III"

(There is, incidentally, no such arcade game as "Super Sprint III".)

As for Grand Prix Sim, most of the same applies - still no powerups, still no jump, no opening/closing gates, only two cars instead of four, and most importantly, a completely different set of tracks.

[C. (revisited)]

Option 4 seems to be winning. So is that what's going to happen?

Also, I've just realised what a painful image the phrase 'rip-off tossers' gives if you think about it in terms of masturbation.

Anyway...

[Juria]

bollocks - one of the main reasons that I bought it was because it was just like super sprint. 

Let's include the whole quote, shall we?

"This is a bit like a scaled down version of the arcade game Super Sprint III"

There is, incidentally, no such arcade game as "Super Sprint III".

Mr Campbell, I have learned that if anyone tries to express a valid opinion or do anything good, the people who agree generally just nod, and the idiots that don't agree and feel all indignant and hostile pipe up and shout them down. So I wouldn't bother stirring them on, Rev , they will never agree and fabricate more and more unjustifiable and unporvable things. And because there's more than one of them they'll feel right and smug and just piss us off

[Rev. Stuart Campbell]

Option 4 seems to be winning. So is that what's going to happen?

Um, it already has. Option 2 was tried and failed, so now Option 4 is in effect. The full version is available on my website.

http://www.rllmukforum.com/index.php?showtopic=23544&hl=

[Rev. Stuart Campbell]

There's nothing implausible about two different people having exactly the same simple idea over the course of several years. I'm not saying you're wrong, just that you'll have a merry ol' time proving yourself right given that Demon Star has documented the game's creation and obviously has people to back the story up.

I'd advise you to take a "softly softly" approach to get what you want, therefore, but of course it's too late for that now.

You keep ignoring the point that I DID email them before doing this, and they completely ignored it. Now, if I was them and a representative of an extremely well-respected software developer emailed me and accused me of ripping off their game, I'd either be very apologetic, or very indignant. Either way, I'd be damn sure to reply.

And as yet, I have no burden of proof to worry about. Let's see if they try suing, shall we?

[The Liberal Elite]

bollocks - one of the main reasons that I bought it was because it was just like super sprint. 

Let's include the whole quote, shall we?

"This is a bit like a scaled down version of the arcade game Super Sprint III"

There is, incidentally, no such arcade game as "Super Sprint III".

Mr Campbell, I have learned that if anyone tries to express a valid opinion or do anything good, the people who agree generally just nod, and the idiots that don't agree and feel all indignant and hostile pipe up and shout them down. So I wouldn't bother stirring them on, Rev , they will never agree and fabricate more and more unjustifiable and unporvable things. And because there's more than one of them they'll feel right and smug and just piss us off

So the rank hypocrisy has passed you by then? Please, explain what's GOOD about this bitter little venture? It's OK for Stuart to share old games as long as they're free ? Seems to me that he doesn't like it when the shoe is on the other foot.

and as for stuart's comments on how grand prix simulator is a totally different game

As for Grand Prix Sim, most of the same applies - still no powerups, still no jump, no opening/closing gates, only two cars instead of four, and most importantly, a completely different set of tracks.

Different set of tracks = totally different game? Only 2 cars instead of 4? Wow, we're going into totally different fucking gamesville! hell, going by this criteria for 'new game':

They use compeltely different train numbers in the game! Also, if you look closely, you'll notice that the train numbers in the demon star game have dashes in them. totally different game then. The view of the trains is from above, with the trains subsequently being spaced out a bit further, changing the dynamic of the game.

Death to small developers!

[Rev. Stuart Campbell]

Different set of tracks = totally different game?  Only 2 cars instead of 4?  Wow, we're going into totally different fucking gamesville! hell, going by this criteria for 'new game':

They use compeltely different train numbers in the game!  Also, if you look closely, you'll notice that the train numbers in the demon star game have dashes in them. totally different game then.  The view of the trains is from above, with the trains subsequently being spaced out a bit further, changing the dynamic of the game.

Thanks for such an excellent demonstration of my point from the other thread:

I'm happy to clearly establish the principles behind the action. That's partly why I emailed Demon Star with the link to my page, rather than just doing it sneakily. If people want to continue carping, their motivation should be clear.

Different tracks are everything in a racing game, you witless chump. Otherwise how would Namco get people to buy, just for example, Ridge Racer AND Ridge Racer Revolution?

[timgp]

As for Grand Prix Sim, most of the same applies - still no powerups, still no jump, no opening/closing gates, only two cars instead of four, and most importantly, a completely different set of tracks.

Power ups? Jumps? Opening and closing gates? Isn't that Super Cars II? Man that was a sweet game.

[Sledge]

It's not exactly the same 'idea'  it's exactly the same 'collection of ideas'.  It's exremely implausible that someone setting out with same core idea (train spotting) would make ALL the same decisions and implement the exact same play mechanic.

I would have agreed once, but now I'm not 100% sure of that, which is basically all I'm saying. I scrapped an idea I was mulling over last year because EpicBoy (if I recall) released an uncannily similar design without me ever having described it anywhere and the incident gives me cause to pause when I look at this situation. The trains pass through a station and you tick the numbers off a list... it's just too straightforward for me, personally, to rule out convergence. Not coincidence; convergence.

I'm all for this justice stuff, but if I'm honest then I've no idea who to root for on this one, J.

You keep ignoring the point that I DID email them before doing this, and they completely ignored it.

I'm not ignoring you, I'm observing the general tenor you've adopted and making the reasonable assumption that you set out to use justice, the law, morality, religion, or whatever the fuck it is you're waving about as a big stick, just like a billion other over-evolved-yet-under-imaginative monkeys have done before you. The term "rip-off tossers" was on this forum long before a reply from Demon Star became overdue.

Had you the benefit of my unparalleled counsel before kicking this episode off, I'd have advised you that this could well be sorted out quietly and amicably (especially as both myself and JPickford are Blitzers), meaning there'd be no need to act like a rabid parody of yourself in order to "defeat" an "enemy" who is about as significant as a gnat. Can't you direct all this nervous energy to a Fairplay Campaign championing a return of copyright legislation to its original character, thus ensuring that independent developers have a legitimate supply of IP entering the public domain? Might be a wee bit more worthwhile a way to avoid this sort of thing occurring, that, and I'm sure this guy will be only too happy to help, you lucky, lucky man...

Mr Campbell, I have learned that if anyone tries to express a valid opinion or do anything good, the people who agree generally just nod, and the idiots that don't agree and feel all indignant and hostile pipe up and shout them down. So I wouldn't bother stirring them on,

He asked, dopey. I like the way you fulfill the exact character you're condemning -- with such a panache for irony you should write for Edge.

Anyway, watching with interest.

[Rev. Stuart Campbell]

I'm not ignoring you, I'm observing the general tenor you've adopted and making the reasonable assumption that you set out to use justice, the law, morality, religion, or whatever the fuck it is you're waving about as a big stick, just like a billion other over-evolved-yet-under-imaginative monkeys have done before you.

See, even leaving the monkey jibe aside, that's terrifically offensive. If I wanted to beat Demon Star with a big stick, I'd have called Codemasters, who are notoriously protective of their IP, and I have zero doubt that they'd have squished DS like a bug. Instead, I gave them a chance to respond (still waiting, incidentally), and even when that was ignored all I've done is put the game on a website which gets a few thousand visitors a month. Their website is still selling it.

Your other comments I really can't be arsed with. I'm too bemused at your championing of an utterly flagrantly OBVIOUS ripoff of someone else's free work, being sold for money. There are a dozen ways someone could write a trainspotting game. I gave you three straight off the top of my head when you asked, I could come up with plenty more. The fact that they've done it IDENTICALLY in every single respect to ours makes the idea of coincidence laughable. And if it IS all just a big mistake, why haven't they said so? Even if I'd hurt their feelings with my nasty email - which wasn't, in fact, nasty at all - you'd think they'd want to clear it up just to protect their sales and stop their product being distributed for free. Wouldn't you?

[JPickford (retired mod)]

You could have just left it. Imitation = Flattery etc.

[marsh]

Wouldn't you?

Not really. I't a fucking game about trainspotting for christs sake, I wouldn't be in the least bit suprised if you're the only person to have paid money for it. In itself a truely delicious irony.

Have you really not got anything better to do?

[Dude Ranch]

I't a fucking game about trainspotting for christs sake, I wouldn't be in the least bit suprised if you're the only person to have paid money for it. In itself a truely delicious irony.

Stu, you are the world's angriest man. Step back and take a look at yourself.

[Rev. Stuart Campbell]

You could have just left it. Imitation = Flattery etc.

I could have, yeah. But I didn't, because it's wrong.

Copying the game? Fine. Remaking it with nice graphics for 2003? Fine. Claiming it as their own and selling it for money? Not fine.

[Rev. Stuart Campbell]

Step back and take a look at yourself.

Fine advice from a blind man.

[marsh]

You could have just left it.  Imitation = Flattery etc.

I could have, yeah. But I didn't, because it's wrong.

Copying the game? Fine. Remaking it with nice graphics for 2003? Fine. Claiming it as their own and selling it for money? Not fine.

Quick, burn your bra!. These people are terrorists and nasty, they must be ousted and burned in the streets.

Lets not forget the the games are identicle in every way.

[Rev. Stuart Campbell]

You could have just left it.   Imitation = Flattery etc.

I could have, yeah. But I didn't, because it's wrong.

Copying the game? Fine. Remaking it with nice graphics for 2003? Fine. Claiming it as their own and selling it for money? Not fine.

Quick, burn your bra!. These people are terrorists and nasty, they must be ousted and burned in the streets.

Lets not forget the the games are identicle in every way.

Who shat on your cornflakes, incidentally? Up to about a fortnight ago you'd been behaving like a non-total cunt, I was having to revise my opinion of you. Now you're back to your old "Gratuitously attack Campbell without adding anything whatsoever to the debate" routine, it's a bit boring.

[marsh]

You could have just left it.   Imitation = Flattery etc.

I could have, yeah. But I didn't, because it's wrong.

Copying the game? Fine. Remaking it with nice graphics for 2003? Fine. Claiming it as their own and selling it for money? Not fine.

Quick, burn your bra!. These people are terrorists and nasty, they must be ousted and burned in the streets.

Lets not forget the the games are identicle in every way.

Who shat on your cornflakes, incidentally? Up to about a fortnight ago you'd been behaving like a non-total cunt, I was having to revise my opinion of you. Now you're back to your old "Gratuitously attack Campbell without adding anything whatsoever to the debate" routine, it's a bit boring.

Stu, I just struggle with the whole thing. I'll sit here and read stuff and think 'yeah that's a fair point/good idea etc' and then I'll see something like this and it's just mind numbing.

Basically you've got a hair up your arse about them not mentioning your name or giving you a tiny bit of credit for a game that is an update of something you gave away on a mag disc.

Now I know that your of the mentality that 1 voice makes a difference and all that malarky, which I don't have an issue with.

But this just seems what? a little bit stalkerish

If someone decided to rip something an image or whatever from my site then best of luck to them, I hope it makes them more money than it has for me.

And I had toast for breakfast.

[Dude Ranch]

Step back and take a look at yourself.

Fine advice from a blind man.

You never told me how tall you are?

[Sledge]

monkey jibe

What, human race in evolved-from-primates shocka? Sorry, I really don't think very highly of people in general (take a squizz at the news, or the way some of your favourite industries are run), and you're normally an exception. But this just all seems too extreme and unnecessarily public -- I know you got into the habit of conspicuously setting the world to rights with AP, but that doesn't mean we need a public vote* on every bit-player you have a wrangle with. I think it's a bit much.

Concentrate on the bigger picture and I'll back you -- this incident is symptomatic of a much larger problem, and I wonder if you would be waylaid by it to such an extent had you no personal involvement with Sensible. Bigger fish to fry, you have.

all I've done is put the game on a website which gets a few thousand visitors a month. Their website is still selling it.

Forget that, anyone with enough savvy can get Train Tracking for free. It's tiresome to see people of status, who claim to stand for justice and the "Truth" to such an extent that they actually give the latter a capital letter, deal with those who could obviously benefit from guidance with zero benevolence. Putting Demon Star on the straight and narrow, for all you know, need not be an exercise in confrontation and humiliation, but you're too eager for those things to give the compassionate approach a proper chance. That's your prerogative, of course, but I'm not about to pretend it meets my standards for approval just because you're you.

I'm too bemused at your championing of an utterly flagrantly OBVIOUS ripoff

I'm not championing Demon Star, I'm championing diplomacy, patience, restraint and civility in how you deal with the developer over this matter.

The fact that they've done it IDENTICALLY in every single respect to ours makes the idea of coincidence laughable.

Convergence is not coincidence, it's the exact opposite. Even if this is lost on you, it won't be lost on a court used to seeing convergent designs defended with documentation of their isolated development. In this light, your breach of copyright is perhaps overconfident... you are certainly braver than I in your act of piracy. Littered with expletives though my posts may be, this is friendly advice.

And if it IS all just a big mistake, why haven't they said so? Even if I'd hurt their feelings with my nasty email - which wasn't, in fact, nasty at all - you'd think they'd want to clear it up just to protect their sales and stop their product being distributed for free. Wouldn't you?

There are countless reasons that could explain the silence of a one-man outfit like Demon Star. I mean, you really couldn't wait a week, just on the off-chance that he has a life that takes him away from his computer for longer than the vaunted 24hrs occasionally? Are you really that pernickety? Stop nodding your head and sniggering.

*Really man, I worry about you sometimes. What percentage of the people around here can't even use "there" and "their" correctly, do you think? And you want them to tell you how to proceed with your life? That had better be a joke.

[Rev. Stuart Campbell]

and I wonder if you would be waylaid by it to such an extent had you no personal involvement with Sensible

Of course not. So what?

Forget that, anyone with enough savvy can get Train Tracking for free.

I very much doubt my page shows up on Google yet. (Just checked: it doesn't.) How would this "savvy" person get from hearing about Train Tracking on Demon Star's website to downloading it from my page, exactly?

Convergence is not coincidence

Call it what you want. There's no way in a million years the author of Train Tracking hasn't played Sensible Trainspotting. It staggers me that even from an academic Devil's Advocate viewpoint anyone would try to make that stick.

There are countless reasons that could explain the silence of a one-man outfit like Demon Star.

On what basis are you saying they're a "one-man" outfit? No fewer than five people are listed in the credits of the game. Anyway, if you're not going to reply in 24 hours (or, indeed, 48 or 53), then don't put "Allow 24 hours for a reply" on your fucking website.

*Really man, I worry about you sometimes. What percentage of the people around here can't even use "there" and "their" correctly, do you think? And you want them to tell you how to proceed with your life? That had better be a joke.

I was interested in people's views. I'd have done what I thought was right in any event. If my career proves nothing else, it's surely that. As it happens, the majority in this case thought the same as I did. I'm in no way holding the vote responsible for my actions.

[Sledge]

So what?

So this isn't the reason you exist, is it? To get caught up on something like this when matters that, by any objective measure, are more important lie at hand.

I very much doubt my page shows up on Google yet. (Just checked: it doesn't.)

No, I mean Idigicon's stuff has been cracked and if you search hard enough you can unlock the demos for free. Your act of piracy, as you well know, will have zero effect on Demon Star's profits... those who believe they deserve money for their efforts will still pay. Your accusations, on the other hand, might actually cost 'em.

It staggers me that even from an academic Devil's Advocate viewpoint anyone would try to make that stick.

You must have come across some of the most ridiculous copyright cases that have stuck during the course of your journalistic career. It's well worth trying the defence I have outlined.

On what basis are you saying they're a "one-man" outfit? No fewer than five people are listed in the credits of the game.

They're not big enough to have an autonomous legal department so any response, I assume, will have to come from Myke-P... if he's not there, you won't get a response I'd expect. For some reason I'm also pretty sure the additional people were merely contracted for art and such, but I could be wrong as I didn't follow the game's status too closely over on the Blitz forums.

[Rev. Stuart Campbell]

So this isn't the reason you exist, is it? To get caught up on something like this when matters that, by any objective measure, are more important lie at hand.

What's your point? Emailing them took two minutes. Buying the game online took another two, making a webpage and uploading it maybe 10. That's 14 minutes of my life in total. I have MORE than enough spare time that that's not a major imposition on it. Arguing the toss on the forum? I do that every day anyway.

No, I mean Idigicon's stuff has been cracked and if you search hard enough you can unlock the demos for free.

So? What does that have to do with me? (Except that I wish someone had told me and saved me a tenner.)

Your act of piracy, as you well know, will have zero effect on Demon Star's profits

So what is it you're bitching about, exactly? You've accused me of over-reacting, yet now you say my actions won't do them any harm at all. Which is it?

They're not big enough to have an autonomous legal department so any response, I assume, will have to come from Myke-P... if he's not there, you won't get a response I'd expect.

Not my problem. If you can't reply in 24 hours, don't say "Reply in 24 hours" on your website. If you've done something wrong, not answering your doorbell when the police come round doesn't constitute a legal defence.

[Boyatsea]

I'm not a legal expert, but for me it comes down to morals.

If this is a blatant copy of your game, then the proper thing to do is to get Codemasters to begin legal proceedings.

But it comes down to your morals too. I'm not criticising, but why would you want to sue them? What do you want to achieve? Turning the question back on you.. what do you want to do?

[Rev. Stuart Campbell]

I'm not a legal expert, but for me it comes down to morals.

If this is a blatant copy of your game, then the proper thing to do is to get Codemasters to begin legal proceedings.

But it comes down to your morals too. I'm not criticising, but why would you want to sue them?

I don't. That's why I haven't.

[Boyatsea]

I'm not a legal expert, but for me it comes down to morals.

If this is a blatant copy of your game, then the proper thing to do is to get Codemasters to begin legal proceedings.

But it comes down to your morals too. I'm not criticising, but why would you want to sue them?

I don't. That's why I haven't.

I'm a bit lost as to the point of this thread then, fella.

If the majority had said "sue", would you of considered it? Otherwise what's the point of asking for people's advice?

Or did you just want to see how your view compared to others?

[Rev. Stuart Campbell]

I'm a bit lost as to the point of this thread then, fella.

If the majority had said "sue", would you of considered it? Otherwise what's the point of asking for people's advice?

Or did you just want to see how your view compared to others?

Pretty much.

[Boyatsea]

I'm a bit lost as to the point of this thread then, fella.

If the majority had said "sue", would you of considered it? Otherwise what's the point of asking for people's advice?

Or did you just want to see how your view compared to others?

Pretty much.

Fair do's.

In that case, wait till the bastards become incredibly successful, rise to fame, and THEN sue the hell out of them.

Or just send a strongly worded letter to Watchdog.