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Robo_1
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The NGP is the first hardware system developed at Sony where the software division gets to do a Microsoft, that quote from the anonymous developer sounds mildly hyperbolic, but sums it up:

I suppose expectations have moved on since the original PlayStation, because Krazy Ken was fully in charge of that project and yet it was viewed as an easy to develop for system :)

My first thought when I read that was "does he mean piracy prevention?" :lol:

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And developers were told: "All games at launch available on flash [the physical storage medium] would also be on PSN."

No surprise but it marks a substantial shift away from retail - you have to expect MS to follow suit next gen (if they haven't already done by the end of the 360's life) and, I imagine, Nintendo won't be far behind.

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and, I imagine, Nintendo won't be far behind.

They'll only make the switch when the market forces their hand, they coin way too much from physical sales to intentionally undermine that market themselves, as demonstrated by their 3DS software strategy.

Apple had nothing to lose from making devices which are digital only, console manufacturers aren't in quite the same situation.

The original quote from SCEE on the subject was even more tilted towards a digital future:

Eurogamer: In terms of the media games will come on, will everything be available through the PlayStation Store? And will everything also be available on cart?

Andrew House: Yes, and no. So what we're intending to do is have everything available on PlayStation Store, and potentially be on physical media as well.

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This is a genuine question, no trolling I can assure you.

What is there to look forward to when it comes to the PSP2? All I see is a PS3 on the go which doesn't strike me as anything special. Though playing something like Dark Souls wherever I want could very well be the defining factor that lures me in. It's still rather expensive though and whilst it might be powerful in terms of hardware, isn't the 3DS where it's at regarding the games?

Enlighten me.

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This is a genuine question, no trolling I can assure you.

What is there to look forward to when it comes to the PSP2? All I see is a PS3 on the go which doesn't strike me as anything special. Though playing something like Dark Souls wherever I want could very well be the defining factor that lures me in. It's still rather expensive though and whilst it might be powerful in terms of hardware, isn't the 3DS where it's at regarding the games?

Enlighten me.

Currently I suppose you could put it down to post-reveal orgasm mode and 'potential', I suppose it depends if you feel it could potentially do a PS1/PS2 in terms of game support on whether you feel any reason to be excited by it.

The 3DS currently ain't looking like some sure thing from a thirdparty games POV.

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They'll only make the switch when the market forces their hand, they coin way too much from physical sales to intentionally undermine that market themselves, as demonstrated by their 3DS software strategy.

You have to imagine all the platform holders are keen to move away from retail for software sales, there's even more coin to enjoy without having to provide retailers their cut along with all the lost royalties the second hand market eats up. The problem, from their perspective, is more how you shift hardware without retail.

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You have to imagine all the platform holders are keen to move away from retail for software sales, there's even more coin to enjoy without having to provide retailers their cut along with all the lost royalties the second hand market eats up. The problem, from their perspective, is more how you shift hardware without retail.

That and the broadband infrastructure isn't really up to the task at the moment (and I'm talking about in large parts of Britain, it's probably a lot worse in other parts of the world where Sony sell their wares). Apple can get away with download only platforms because the downloads for it tend to be pretty small (I think the biggest game on the App Store is Riven and that carries a special warning about the file size before you buy it). If Sony are planning on offering 'PS3 comparable' games on the PSP2, then they'll probably be clocking in at quite hefty file sizes and for a lot of people downloading them won't be an option they welcome at the moment.

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That and the broadband infrastructure isn't really up to the task at the moment (and I'm talking about in large parts of Britain, it's probably a lot worse in other parts of the world where Sony sell their wares). Apple can get away with download only platforms because the downloads for it tend to be pretty small (I think the biggest game on the App Store is Riven and that carries a special warning about the file size before you buy it). If Sony are planning on offering 'PS3 comparable' games on the PSP2, then they'll probably be clocking in at quite hefty file sizes and for a lot of people downloading them won't be an option they welcome at the moment.

Don't they have the [current] PSP Store on PC and PS3, and you can transfer stuff to the PSP through them? Might not be an option for everyone, but good for people on here.

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You have to imagine all the platform holders are keen to move away from retail for software sales, there's even more coin to enjoy without having to provide retailers their cut along with all the lost royalties the second hand market eats up. The problem, from their perspective, is more how you shift hardware without retail.

Those points would be more applicable to Nintendo licensees, rather than Nintendo themselves, if you can get retailers to order more than they sell, the stock problem is generally theirs, not yours, plus I'm relatively certain manufacturing games for their licensees is a nice profitable venture, as you can't do it yourself if you're publishing for a console.

Digital means you cut out the retailer, but considering how little Apple make from their 30% cut, it's not that lucrative to be the distributor, PSN is currently still lossmaking too. They're going to need huge volumes and relatively high prices to make the sort of money they enjoyed in the last few years if they go digital.

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Those points would be more applicable to Nintendo licensees, rather than Nintendo themselves, if you can get retailers to order more than they sell, the stock problem is generally theirs, not yours, plus I'm relatively certain manufacturing games for their licensees is a nice profitable venture, as you can't do it yourself if you're publishing for a console.

Digital means you cut out the retailer, but considering how little Apple make from their 30% cut, it's not that lucrative to be the distributor, PSN is currently still lossmaking too. They're going to need huge volumes and relatively high prices to make the sort of money they enjoyed in the last few years if they go digital.

Assuming Nintendo wants to keep their licensees happy and enjoy broad third-party support then they would need to move to digital regardless. I was under the assumption that publishers look after their own manufacturing these days, at least since optical media came along.

Also, I don't get your point about Apple, they 'only' make 30%? What percentage of retail cost do the platform holders make on third-party retail games currently, my understanding was it was around 10-20% at most? I don't understand how PSN could be loss-making either, surely the infrastructure required to set up an online store couldn't be that expensive offset against how much revenue it could generate - then again it is a horror show to navigate and use.

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This is a genuine question, no trolling I can assure you.

What is there to look forward to when it comes to the PSP2? All I see is a PS3 on the go which doesn't strike me as anything special. Though playing something like Dark Souls wherever I want could very well be the defining factor that lures me in. It's still rather expensive though and whilst it might be powerful in terms of hardware, isn't the 3DS where it's at regarding the games?

Enlighten me.

the 3DS is seven weeks away from launch and the PSP2 isn't out for the best part of a year. it stands to reason that the 3DS has more games right now. no way to tell yet whether one or the other (or both) will be clearly rubbish/clearly awesome for developer support.

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Perhaps I'm being daft here but I don't see how the PSP2's trajectory is any different to the PSP, touch/motion controls are ubiquitous now, a second analogue stick is perhaps the most substantive difference but I'm not sure that's going to matter to that many. The PSP, of course, sold a healthy amount of hardware but enjoyed tiny software sales. Certainly piracy played its part in that but more significantly, perhaps, the PSP was the only device of it's kind bar the eccentric and underpowered DS - the idea of playing full-fat games on the move is appealing on paper, far less engaging in practice and I'm not sure the 65 million folk who bought a PSP are going to be that keen to repeat the experience - to have another expensive device that languishes in a drawer for years at a time. Telling that Sony aren't even referring to the device internally as the PSP2, I'll be surprised if the final name they settle on makes any mention of PSP either.

On top of that the market now is awash with powerful portable devices that you carry with you by default and have extensive libraries of inexpensive games that are ideally suited to portable gaming, oh and Nintendo (a company who seem to know a thing or two about selling portable gaming devices) are about to release a very strongly supported, relatively inexpensive device too. In short, if I were a betting man I'd wager that the PSP2 won't sell anything like the original PSP.

Whilst this is how I feel about the system, and I'm constantly confused by apologists blaming the PSP's failing on piracy when the DS is a shit load easier to pirate games for and still sells millions of them, I think you're underestimating the potential impact of a machine with two sticks and a COD port. That will sell it, and then if it takes off nothing else will matter. I'd love to see another machine from sony that enjoyed PS1/2 levels of support and diversity, and whilst I don't really see what sony are doing to foster that environment, I've started to think more along the lines of Alex earlier in ther thread, that Sony were just in the right place at the right time with the Playstation brand, and that maybe they're success was more fortuitous that well planned.

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Whilst this is how I feel about the system, and I'm constantly confused by apologists blaming the PSP's failing on piracy when the DS is a shit load easier to pirate games for and still sells millions of them, I think you're underestimating the potential impact of a machine with two sticks and a COD port. That will sell it, and then if it takes off nothing else will matter. I'd love to see another machine from sony that enjoyed PS1/2 levels of support and diversity, and whilst I don't really see what sony are doing to foster that environment, I've started to think more along the lines of Alex earlier in ther thread, that Sony were just in the right place at the right time with the Playstation brand, and that maybe they're success was more fortuitous that well planned.

The DS required you to buy a widget, the PSP was a software hack that took a few minutes. That being said, I agree that it's not the main reason the PSP had a poor track record for game sales - playing full console games on a portable device is a much better idea than it is in practice. I love me some COD but I have no real interest in playing it on the tube, something turn-based or puzzly like Hot Shots or Devils Dice is far more interesting. Dual thumbsticks could, possibly, make a difference although I'm not yet convinced.

Your second point I agree with, I loved the PS1&2, my favourite machines of their respective generations by some distance - Sony's issue though is that they're a hardware company and being a platform manufacturer these days requires you to be more than that - the writing was on the wall at the end of the PS2 era and they simply didn't respond. I'm not sure they were fortuitous exactly, I think that's unfair on Sony - they'd been messed around by Nintendo, saw a gap in the market and exploited it very, very well. They simply don't understand how to provide a service though which I fear, ultimately, will cause their demise, at least in videogames. Then again, who knows - couple of great games for the PSP2 could see it right followed by strong PS4 hardware along with some great games and a good online infrastructure - it might see them turn a corner. Certainly most of us, myself included, were ready to write off Nintendo around the time of the DS launch and they seem to be doing alright now.

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Since the PS2 I have been completely non-plussed about the Playstation brand, and until the price announcement was expecting the 3DS to be a definite buy. To be honest, the price of the 3DS and the specs of the PSP2 have turned my mindset right around. It looks fantastic, and if it can be sold at a reasonable price then I'm in.

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Assuming Nintendo wants to keep their licensees happy and enjoy broad third-party support then they would need to move to digital regardless. I was under the assumption that publishers look after their own manufacturing these days, at least since optical media came along.

Also, I don't get your point about Apple, they 'only' make 30%? What percentage of retail cost do the platform holders make on third-party retail games currently, my understanding was it was around 10-20% at most? I don't understand how PSN could be loss-making either, surely the infrastructure required to set up an online store couldn't be that expensive offset against how much revenue it could generate - then again it is a horror show to navigate and use.

That's a big assumption ;) not borne out by any available evidence to really support it.

The console licensing model (which we can pretty much thank Nintendo for, don't believe Atari had all the bits in place when they had their moment in the sun) dictates that the licensee pays the platform holder for the privilege of developing games on their proprietary hardware system using their expensive proprietary dev kits and paying them a large fee for each unit of software and various related services.

The Apple Appstore model is a revenue sharing model, which developers would think as a more fairer model than the traditional console licensee model, you buy a Mac, pay $99 a year for the right to use the SDK and get 70% of whatever revenue is generated.

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This is a genuine question, no trolling I can assure you.

What is there to look forward to when it comes to the PSP2? All I see is a PS3 on the go which doesn't strike me as anything special. Though playing something like Dark Souls wherever I want could very well be the defining factor that lures me in. It's still rather expensive though and whilst it might be powerful in terms of hardware, isn't the 3DS where it's at regarding the games?

Enlighten me.

My thoughts exactly. Im sure Sony will offer some cool looking active shutter glasses as a "Me too" response to Nintendos 3DS 3D capability, just as everyone did with motion controllers after experiencing the Wii, just as everyone did with wireless controllers after seeing how great the wavebird was (GC), just as everyone did with analog sticks after experiencing the N64 and SM64, just as everyone did with shoulder buttons on a gamepad after experiencing a SNES controller, just as everyone did after experiencing a gamepad on NES.

Nintendo has historically been the innovator, and everyone else pretty much copies and evolves their innovations. Of course, before everyone screams they didnt "invent" the analog control stick, I am well aware of that, they just changed the entire video game world with it after everyone else had forgotten about it.

Honestly, I'm not going to buy either as I dont game much anymore and even the 3DS is stupifyingly expensive. I paid less than $200 for SNES, N64, and GC - and refused to pay $250 for a Wii, although the technology in the 3DS actually probably justifies it a bit more than the Wii did with the new screen, hardware, and other upgrades.

As for NGP, well, if it meets the $250 price point I'd be shocked (from Sonys track record of releasing retardedly expensive hardware at launch) and (just as you alluded) the thing is little more than a PS3portable. Want to know what games will be like on NGP, go fire up your PS3. The best thing I can think about it is that it would be cool to play against PS3ers on the PSN while on the move, other than that its the same old dog and pony show from Sony. It worked well for PS2, as back then graphics really did limit game enjoyment and playability (choppy, blurry, blocky, pixelly graphics from PS1/ N64 gen), but after DC/PS2/GC/Xbox gen, shinier graphics looked better, but in my opinion didnt improve game enjoyment and playability.

Given the choice between the two sight unseen I'd pick the 3DS, if for nothing else than to experience the glasses free 3D first hand and Nintendos exclusives. The nerd in me is excited to see how the battle plays out, but the truth is both will probably lose a lot of thunder to smart phones and may be the last stand alone gaming handhelds released.

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To be fair the PSP2 looks to have more gameplay possibilities than 3DS unless I'm missing something?

You're not.

Apparently the PSP2 will feature nothing but PS3 ports, though, unlike the 3DS which has Ocarina of Time and Lylat Wars; Nintendo are really innovating by porting games from two generations ago, unlike predictable ol' Sony.

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That's a big assumption ;) not borne out by any available evidence to really support it.

The console licensing model (which we can pretty much thank Nintendo for, don't believe Atari had all the bits in place when they had their moment in the sun) dictates that the licensee pays the platform holder for the privilege of developing games on their proprietary hardware system using their expensive proprietary dev kits and paying them a large fee for each unit of software and various related services.

The Apple Appstore model is a revenue sharing model, which developers would think as a more fairer model than the traditional console licensee model, you buy a Mac, pay $99 a year for the right to use the SDK and get 70% of whatever revenue is generated.

Nintendo will remember how successful the last few years of the N64 were when nearly all third-party support dried up - it's patently obvious Nintendo act to keep third-parties as happy as they can.

Whichever way you cut it 30% is a bigger proportion of revenue than 10-20%.

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To be fair the PSP2 looks to have more gameplay possibilities than 3DS unless I'm missing something?

I've seen quite a few people say this, and it has me confused. Surely all it actually adds, that's genuinely brand new, is the rear touch panel - having more graphical grunt / twin sticks isn't opening up any new gameplay doors that aren't already open on multiple other formats...

And I'm as skeptical about the rear touchpad as I am about the 3DS 3D screen (lots) - how much value can a touch pad that you can't actually see (and that is placed pretty much where you want to hold onto the unit naturally) really add?

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I've seen quite a few people say this, and it has me confused. Surely all it actually adds, that's genuinely brand new, is the rear touch panel - having more graphical grunt / twin sticks isn't opening up any new gameplay doors that aren't already open on multiple other formats...

The point is the DS could do things the PSP couldn't, whereas the NGP can more or less do everything the 3DS can; obviously it can't do 3D and doesn't have dual screens, but stereoscopy isn't really a game changer whilst the latter is somewhat hamstrung by the former.

To look at it another way, there's no particular reason any third-party 3DS game can't also appear on NGP. Sony's machine should also be able to play host to decent renditions of more traditionally controlled games, too, unlike its predecessor which looked the part but was often undermined by a reliance on a single, rather rubbish analogue nub.

People keep saying there's little demand for home console experiences on the go, but I'd posit there's little demand for compromised home console experiences, which is largely what the original PSP offered.

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Well control wise it has everything the 3DS has plus more. we already know how much value 2 analogue sticks have over 1 for a start.

Nintendo did miss the boat on this one - they must figure everyone wants to play with N64 Turok style controls (which admittedly I grew quite used to 15 years ago, but is definitely old guard and definitely not suitable for those who want to aim in an fps with the right thumb). I am a bit amazed by that omission, but its not a deal breaker.

I think the 3DS is powerful enough for handheld gaming, while the NGP is grossly overpowered. The glasses free 3D tech is still the biggest draw for me. People are complaining that it will hurt your eyes, etc. - but how long do you expect most people to play it at a time? Most will probably only play it for 10 - 30 minutes during morning commutes or breaks, occasionally for a few hours perhaps during long road trips or flights. Whether either is too long remains to be seen.

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I think the 3DS is powerful enough for handheld gaming, while the NGP is grossly overpowered.

There's no such thing as overpowered if people can still afford the hardware. If the development tools are as mature as rumour suggests it'll be as easy to make an NGP game as a 3DS one.

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There's no such thing as overpowered if people can still afford the hardware. If the development tools are as mature as rumour suggests it'll be as easy to make an NGP game as a 3DS one.

I disagree, it all depends on the application. Would putting a 5.7L V8 engine on a 20" push lawn mower give you any advantage over having a 6 hp Briggs & Stratton? If the game is Tetris, does the added power of an Xbox 360 give it any real advantage running the game over the NES?

As corny as it sounded when Nintendo said it a couple of years ago, I'm starting to agree with them that improving graphics have reached a point of diminishing returns. This is even more true for the handheld realm, which doesnt enjoy the option of having 42" or larger high def screens for which to game on. It was a different story back in the N64/PS1 days, where some games would give you a headache due to their choppiness, blockiness, or blurriness. It was great that the next gen resolved those problems, but we no longer have those problems! Just my 2 cents.

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:blink:

yeah, let's just stop here - it's gone far enough :doh:

You can laugh if you want, but seriously do you really think the visuals on the 3ds are bad enough that you would be willing to pay $100-$150 more to improve them? There is a point where it becomes really nothing more than cock-waving. Such is the case with the PS3 and X360 console systems - at this current time, would shoving an octacore Core i7 or equivalent CPU and quad GPU in a new console really offer you something you are missing visually on either of these systems? When is enough enough and its time to start looking in a different direction for the next big thing?

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