TV input lag

[Dimahoo]

On consoles Games DO NOT suffer anything like that much lag in my experience and I'm sure lag is measured incorrectly.

All this 10ms loss on TV and 30ms loss on a controller doesn't compute.

10ms lag is considered unacceptable on a Midi Keyboard and you can do a similar comparison with any game that requires you to say fire a bullet that makes a sound every time you hit the button.

20ms can be felt by ANYONE.

On nearly every TV The lag isn't there and this controller lag i'm sure is rubbish too. theres probably about 5-10ms lag at worst.

Different kettle of fish on PC's though although most of us use wired controllers and theres little mag on a monitor (mines 5ms apparently)

[Asura]

Some worryingly innaccurate info being bandied about in the thread but this one stood out, sorry gerbik.

Basically theres no solid rule to follow set wise, apart from research the fuck out of the set you fancy. My previous Sony was 30ms lag and totally fine. Like people say, newer sets (lcd and plasma) are piling on the processing and resulting in 60ms plus times.

However once youve got the TV, the rules are straightforward. Minimise any scaling, turn off any image processing, frame creation, fancy colour engines etc. Set your console to output as near to the tv native res as you can. Dont run it at 720p on a 1080p set as said above, thats very silly. The 360 gpu scales for free, but your set will stretch 720p to fit, costing image quality and lag. The only real exceptions are a few ps3 games that give differing frame rates per resolution, and capcoms in house engine which loses vsync at 1080p.

Lastly, people worry about tv lag, but thats only one link in the chain. If you use a wireless pad, that adds 10-20ms. Wireless net connection adds some more. Game engines and frame rates sacrifice controller response, Burnout being one of the best, killzone 2 showing how badly it can go wrong (especially before it was patched). So in reality, add those up, you can be playing at 100+ ms lag locally, before you even factor in xbl pings.

Or, if you dont notice it, dont investigate too hard. If youre buying a tv, just buy the best Panny you can afford.

Let's not forget though that this lag manifests itself differently to input lag. (not that Angel doesn't know this)

[Big Gus]

This thread is fascinating, this is something I have no idea about. Can't say my old eyes would even be good enough to probably tell.

I did upgrade my gaming telly to this a few weeks back. http://www.currys.co.uk/gbuk/samsung-le32c530-32-full-hd-lcd-tv-05037914-pdt.html Have I dun goofed?

[Uzi]

This thread is fascinating, this is something I have no idea about. Can't say my old eyes would even be good enough to probably tell.

I did upgrade my gaming telly to this a few weeks back. http://www.currys.co.uk/gbuk/samsung-le32c530-32-full-hd-lcd-tv-05037914-pdt.html Have I dun goofed?

You only goofed if the stuff you're playing on it feels laggy! Otherwise enjoy and don't research and dig up a number that may bother you if it isn't already!

[Big Gus]

It feels alright to me, compared to my old gaming set it's almost like playing my older games with NEW EYES or something.

I never fiddle with things much though, is it simple to muck with these picture settings that may cause it?

[Dimahoo]

Well usually a TV has a game mode specifically for that purpose so when you choose the input for your console, just ensure the settings are set to "game" or "game mode". You can still alter many of the "base" settings in this mode.

I made the same mistake when i was reading the NFS:HP thread at DF and knowing what 20ms lag feels like on a keyboard, the controller lag in my mind simply doesn't exist.

Using a wired or wireless controller mades very little difference (although theres meant to be).

Although as said, thats different to TV lag.

[angel]

Let's not forget though that this lag manifests itself differently to input lag. (not that Angel doesn't know this)

Yeah, I wasnt being as clear as I could have mate, cheers. Was just trying to point out the sub-optimal conditions people can be playing in (control lag, online latency) but still have a good time. Im the type who'll research, do the best I can with the info I can, then stop obsessing over it. I imagine Mario Kart Wii is total bobbins under the hud, wireless pad/wheel, wireless connection to your broadband, 480p image upscaled to 1080p... but I had a good time with it. And thats what counts isnt it.

[Vulgar Monkey]

I've never noticed input lag tbh, and I've been through a couple of samsungs. However, I have a hard time spotting screen tearing unless I make a point of waggling the camera back and forth specifically to cause it.

Presumably a lot of this stuff just gets subconsciously tuned out. Couldn't say why it seems the case more for some people than others though.

[Dimahoo]

Its kinda ironic this dicussion is even taking place when compared to certain "newer devices" which IMO are far more noticable (at least with the games i've played).

[SPE]

An easy way to experience lag is with a game like Geometry Wars, where twitch reactions are everything. Play it in game mode, then turn on all the fancy image enhancements and see just how quickly you'll be killed.

[spatular]

I don't get how my monitor has 5ms lag and my tv has 30ms. Both Samsung lcd

monitor might do less processing, and could be a TN panel which has less lag (massive generalisation as loads of different types of panels are used in monitors/tvs).

researching input lag for TVs can be a nightmare, it's often hard to find the info in the first place, and the same TV's can have different panels so different input lag. they should put it on the specifications or something.

[Asura]

Its kinda ironic this dicussion is even taking place when compared to certain "newer devices" which IMO are far more noticable (at least with the games i've played).

Not really. It's more to do with TV manufacturers thinking that everyone wants 1000hz tv's that interpolate between the frames, giving that sickly smooth "camcorder" picture update. The TVs do this via post processing, which has become more widespread as it's a feature they can try to "big up" to sell tellies, and it's this kind of feature causing the problem - so it was always going to get worse for gaming.

[robdood]

The whole input lag thing is a bit overstated though - I mean, do you think there's a lag when you move your mouse/type on your PC? It's there, but you don't even notice it, because that's how it always is, you're used to it.

Things only get silly with these tellies that do that bollocks frame interpolation thing, which proper messes up games/anything with interactions.

[Barny]

The whole input lag thing is a bit overstated though - I mean, do you think there's a lag when you move your mouse/type on your PC? It's there, but you don't even notice it, because that's how it always is, you're used to it.

Things only get silly with these tellies that do that bollocks frame interpolation thing, which proper messes up games/anything with interactions.

Well, nearly all TV's have that feature. It's only the cheap ones which don't. I've tried playing on a LCD where everything felt slow and sluggish and woolly and just... shit really. I imagine it was some lag going on. The worst thing is that it has been getting worse this year. They keep piling on all these stupid features to make up for shortcomings in the tech.

According to the review on HDTVTest the new 3D enabled G20 has terrible lag. What the fuck Panasonic? Why is it so hard to a proper, no-nonsense hi-end display without all that shit, available for consumers? Some people buy professional grade displays meant for use in shop displays and broadcast studios and stuff like that. I really like the idea of a solid, high quality display with all the extra shit removed.

[robdood]

'Nearly all' tellies have the 1000hz frame interp shit going on? Really? None of mine do - they're a few years old, granted, but imo it's an unnecessary feature. It's not making up for a shortcoming. It's trying to sell people something they don't need.

[Eighthours]

Not really. It's more to do with TV manufacturers thinking that everyone wants 1000hz tv's that interpolate between the frames, giving that sickly smooth "camcorder" picture update. The TVs do this via post processing, which has become more widespread as it's a feature they can try to "big up" to sell tellies, and it's this kind of feature causing the problem - so it was always going to get worse for gaming.

Yeah, I've no idea at all why that's on by default when you take your telly out of the box. Don't the manufacturers realise that it makes any moving image look totally artificial? Looks even worse on older films, incidentally.

But at least the newer models allow you to dial the 100hz down to a level where you can get the motion handling benefits without the artificiality, or customise the amount of motion blur reduction and judder removal. This doesn't help with gaming, though - needs to be switched off completely to prevent a horrible lagfest.

[___]

An easy way to experience lag is with a game like Geometry Wars, where twitch reactions are everything. Play it in game mode, then turn on all the fancy image enhancements and see just how quickly you'll be killed.

It's really obvious on any pointer-based game on the Wii, as the pointer should be giving you instant feedback, even when there's delay/acceleration on character movement. I found CoD: Reflex nearly onplayable on a mate's LCD, as I'm used to a lag-free CRT. It's really put me off getting an HDTV; I just want something that works for gaming, even the shittiest, cheapest SDTV doesn't have these issues.

[imp]

It's really obvious on any pointer-based game on the Wii, as the pointer should be giving you instant feedback, even when there's delay/acceleration on character movement. I found CoD: Reflex nearly onplayable on a mate's LCD, as I'm used to a lag-free CRT. It's really put me off getting an HDTV; I just want something that works for gaming, even the shittiest, cheapest SDTV doesn't have these issues.

If it's purely for gaming, you might want to look into getting a HD monitor instead. They use these in most decent fighting game tournaments (for games which can require timing as precise as 1/60th of a second) rather than HDTVs.

[kloid]

I definitely secretly try to convince myself that my abysmal street fighting skills are down in some part to awful input lag. I was fucking blocking that! etc.

I'm likely bullshitting myself of course to feel like less of a cack-fingered stick-cripple, but it's the thought that counts.

[Barny]

'Nearly all' tellies have the 1000hz frame interp shit going on? Really? None of mine do - they're a few years old, granted, but imo it's an unnecessary feature. It's not making up for a shortcoming. It's trying to sell people something they don't need.

Well, you could argue it's both. The motion resolution of a LCD screen is 300 lines. Plasma has 600 lines. Neither of them can match CRT when it comes to motion resolution. So in order for example sports to look fluid they implemented the frame interpolation systems.

The thing that baffles me the most is that we don't have a mass market consumer display type which can do everything: motion, viewing angles, colours/black, lag, banding, phosphor trails and so on.

OLED is supposedly the great savior but it needs to get large and cheap enough for the average consumer.

[Meh]

My G20 gave me an input lag of 0 on Rockband. Plasma ftw.

[ah]

I definitely secretly try to convince myself that my abysmal street fighting skills are down in some part to awful input lag. I was fucking blocking that! etc.

I'm likely bullshitting myself of course to feel like less of a cack-fingered stick-cripple, but it's the thought that counts.

if my tv has some game mode thing that i haven't enabled which will make me suddenly twice as good at street fighter, i'm going to drive round to panasonic's house and kunai them in the face with my SSF4 strategy guide. will report back later.

[Barny]

My G20 gave me an input lag of 0 on Rockband. Plasma ftw.

How did you get that? I tried a couple of times and the best I got was in the 20's.

[Superunknown]

Well, you could argue it's both. The motion resolution of a LCD screen is 300 lines. Plasma has 600 lines. Neither of them can match CRT when it comes to motion resolution. So in order for example sports to look fluid they implemented the frame interpolation systems.

The thing that baffles me the most is that we don't have a mass market consumer display type which can do everything: motion, viewing angles, colours/black, lag, banding, phosphor trails and so on.

OLED is supposedly the great savior but it needs to get large and cheap enough for the average consumer.

Sorry but your comment re: plasma motion resolution is incorrect.

Many LCD and plasma TV's do incorporate interpolation systems, but they are almost always defeatable. LCD manufacturers implement it because LCD motion resolution is pants. Plasma manufacturers like Panasonic have implemented it to give their marketing team something to use against the LCD manufacturers ("200hz? Pah! Look at our 600hz system and despair!"), despite it being both unnecessary for a plasma and introducing artifacts into the image.

As for motion resolution, yeah, 300 lines on an LCD without interpolation is average, and they tend to manage around 600 lines using interpolation. However, any decent 1080p plasma (Pioneer, Panasonic) pushes 900 lines without interpolation, and the latest Panasonics manage 1080 according to reviews (where the reviewers have used specialised tests and equipment to check it rather than just regurgitating any manufacturer blurb).

[Meh]

How did you get that? I tried a couple of times and the best I got was in the 20's.

Oops - for some ridiculous reason, I typed Rock Band instead of Guitar Hero III.

It was all I had to test...

[TheSlugFormerlyKnownAsNap]

I got a pretty old Samsung 32" TV (from 2006), but I never noticed anything. So if Samsung is considered to be bad, I suppose it isn't much of an issue. Although I'm not as sensitive to/precious about 30fps/60fps and all that bollocks as some people are.

[Wizcat]

This is a good visual demo of input lag :

Unfortunately, its demo'd using a Dell 2408. The exact monitor I own. I bought it a few years back for the great resolution, and thought the twisty screen thing would be great for vertical shooters via MAME. Soon as I tried playing an FPS though I nearly barfed. Totally unplayable

[fasteasyfree]

I have a Panasonic X20 plasma, and there's no noticeable lag on it whatsoever. I notice the lag most on other screens when I have to move a mouse cursor, and the delay between moving the mouse and that movement being replicated on screen. With the X20, I can't notice anything. If the other Panasonic plasma screens are anything similar, they'd be a good choice.

[robdood]

But I mean, how bad is it on that Dell? It must be pretty awful for an FPS to be 'totally unplayable'?

[Jack]

I've had the 2408 for a couple of years now and I've never found any game to be unplayable, even fast twitchy FPSes like TF2.