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Star Trek Into Darkness - Full Trailer Post #256


Goose
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On the forum they've both been eviscerated, held to account mainly for not adhering to a rigidly predefined set of standards that they've apparently inherited from their predecessors.

I'm holding it to a 'stupid flashy vapid plot-hole ridden nonsense and not a stupid flashy vapid plot-hole ridden nonsense' standard.

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Yes, that's my theory.

Yadda yadda theory this theory that. It doesn't matter if you can sit down and work out/make up a plot of it all that makes sense - it doesn't work in the actual film as presented on screen. You are doing this after the matter. It's convoluted, unclear and frankly DULL the way the story unfolds as you actually watch it.

There's no fucking need for the plot to be so hard and/or tedious to fathom, no need at all. It's a big blockbuster movie. FILM CRIT HULK nailed in his article about the modern convoluted blockbuster - however fucking intricate or 'clever' (read utterly dumb) the plot is on some level or another, if it is not immediately obvious who people are, what people's motivations are, what the stakes are, where things are going then there is no real drama. There was no drama here because nothing felt like it meant anything and as someone who has seen TWOK I was constantly taken out of what was happening by the pointless and stupid homage (rip off) from that film. Let's not get started on OG Spock's bloody 'oh I can't tell you anything but here's EVERYTHING'. Bollocks. Stop insulting my intelligence, Hollywood.

It's a flimsy, stupid film. It's piss weak. For me it doesn't explore anything that is interesting about the Star Trek universe or characters. Aside from the plot problems, the guy playing Kirk holds no interest for me at all. I have zero interest in what his Kirk thinks, says or does. Bones just mugs constantly and comes out with the world's most stilted lines whilst doing a Bones impression. Scotty is annoying. I like Spock - sometimes.

Pfft. Chuck it all into the fucking sea. I would genuinely rather watch a weak episode of The Next Generation.

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I'm not a Star Trek purist either. A lot of the modern movies are garbage. I saw Nemesis at the cinema and wanted to fall asleep/laugh/cry.

I think that's the standard reaction now matter how much of a Star Trek fan you are. Nemesis is bloody awful.

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Yes, that's my theory.

Marcus pretended not to know about the content of the torpedoes.

He knew about the bombing and yes he knew Khan would shoot at the Starfleet big chiefs. There's this shot where he's casually walking around in the chaos, going like "oh noes i am confused what is happening giggle". He's not even trying to escape. He just stands there. I was like "Run, Murphy! Run! FUCKING RUN!", but later I realized why: he knew he wasn't gonna get hit.

Ok, I don't recall that specific shot, but isn't this plan ridiculously convoluted? How could he guarantee his safety in a chaotic situation like that? With a man he doesn't trust pointing laser death rays at his head?

And let's just rewind a second here: he PLANNED the bombing on his own facility? He hired Khan, someone on the outside, to infiltrate his OWN organisation and plant a bomb inside, going through a longwinded plan using his magic blood as a bargaining chip to gain the trust of an employee with a sick daughter, etcetera, etcerera? Why not just, I don't know, plant the bloody thing yourself? Or for that matter, choose a different facility to blow up, one that isn't a top-secret black ops base that you'd rather keep hidden. Maybe a hospital or an actual high security legit building of some kind, not something that you're working out of yourself while pretending it's a records office.

And then he TELLS Kirk what it is anyway! THIS DOESN'T MAKE ANY SENSE!

Their plans diverge the moment Khan gets captured instead of simply getting a fresh supply of torpedo friends, and then realizes he could flip the script by convincing the people on the Enterprise to go aboard the Vengeance and fuck everyone up.

But the only reason he gets captured is because Kirk disobeyed orders. If getting the torps was part of the plan, then Marcus was still going ahead with it at the point when he gave the Enterprise the torps to shoot at Khan... therefore Khan would have no reason yet to think Marcus was up to something.

In other words: Marcus tried to use Khan. Khan tried to then fuck over Marcus, but instead uses Kirk to fuck over Marcus and then continues to fuck over everyone else.

So if Marcus tried to fuck over Khan, why did he do what he wanted and give his frozen supermen to Kirk to launch at Khan? I mean, let's not think too hard about what Khan and 72 genetically engineered humans would be able to do against an entire planet of Klingons anyway. Marcus's plan was to start a war with them. Did Khan agree? Was he being manipulated by Marcus in exchange for his men's freedom? Because that can't be true if he was also working for him!

I don't think it's unreasonable to try to argue your theory that Khan and Marcus were working together is true, however implausible, but if it were the intention of the writers, based on the evidence, you can't argue that this is clear or obvious. In fact, due to the conflicting evidence in the film, you're the first person I've seen so far stick by that theory.

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The same applies to Star Trek Into Darkness.

It's not about at which exact moment Khan turned on Marcus or any of that fucking bullshit, it's about how Kirk saves the day together with Spock and the rest. That's what it's about. It's about Kirk kicking the bucket and Spock realizing the truth of their friendship and finally getting angry as fuck. Everything that comes before that is just an elaborate McGuffin.

Well, I disagree. I mean, broadly yes, the heroes of the piece are the most important part, but I think if a film is going to set up an elaborate plot where main characters are double-crossing each other, this needs to be conveyed properly. There was no problem with this in the first film because it had far simpler character motives and the plot was laid out plainly.

If Nero had suddenly said, "actually, surprise! I've been working with Old Spock all this time in a plot to to destroy Romulus!", would it matter to you, so long as the good guys get angry and save the day? I think it would harm the film's credibility, personally.

I don't agree that you can simply gloss over parts of a plot in such a 'plotty' film. I think it's important. I can enjoy the film despite this, but it harms it. That's my honest opinion.

You fuckers want to be so fucking intelligent and want to be able to dissect every bit so analytically on this forum, in order to prove to every single one of us how much you all "get" cinema, that you'll gladly gloss over STID's brilliant bits to pinpoint supposed faults so you can feel better about yourselves. It's disgusting. Now I know that people like Smitty do this in pretty much every thread, but it really depresses me to see other good posters nag about things that are just basic, silly film devices, just because they want to show how much attention they've been paying to all the nerdy bullshit.

This is a load of waffle, man.

Firstly, stop broadly insulting 'everyone'.

Secondly, I absolutely do not "get" cinema. All I know is what I like and I know when a film doesn't work for me. I sat in that cinema, watching the events unfold, and although I enjoyed the thrill ride, I found the plot weak and unsatisfying. I take no satisfaction from finding a film unsatisfying, because that would be nonsensical. I would love to love the film, but I did not. And so, all I can do is try to explain why. What it was about the film that made it fail to win me over entirely.

Analysing that is important, because it can help us to identify what works and what doesn't work in a film, so we can find more films that we do enjoy. And discussing it is important, because we can share ideas and try to reach a better understanding. That's the point of this forum, isn't it?

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Smitty, I don't CARE about the Star Trek universe. I care about what a film does to me. I care about interesting characters and the decisions they make.

So do I - and this movie failed on that front. I couldn't enjoy it as 'some movie' or as a Star Trek movie. It didn't work for me in either regard.

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  • 4 weeks later...

Latino Review are putting forward that John M Chu, of G.I Joe: Retaliation fame is forerunner to direct part 3. Abrams will stay on board to produce by Paramount want part 3 in cinemas by 2016, which rules Abrams out to direct.

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  • 3 weeks later...

This came out recently in Japan. I didn't really enjoy this movie at all, it felt like they came up with the set pieces first and cumbersomely worked the plot around them. I did like elements of it: Benedict Cumberbatch was great and I guess some of the action was ok but it all felt like a very hollow experience.

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This is one of those movies that I really enjoyed at the time, but gradually I have less and less interest in ever watching it again.

I had almost the same experience except I'd only characterise my initial reaction as 'moderately enjoyed'. I think it's the oodles and oodles of fridge logic; the more I pondered the film once the sensor battering lens flare ended, the more dissatisfied I grew.
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It's not even logic, I'm just not particularly engaged in what happened in the film now it's not battering past at 24 frames per second.

Except the bit with the cool ship, I'd watch that again on YouTube.

Edit - Which reminds me about one of Film Crit Hulk's comments about modern action film-making.

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Living in Japan and so only just got to see this in the cinema on Friday. I'm getting really tired of going to the cinema to see films that are either hyped-up or that I've been looking forward to for a while, and have them fall kind of flat. Skyfall, Iron Man 3, Pacific Rim, Dark Knight Rises...the last action film I saw at the cinema that I really properly enjoyed was The Avengers.

Into Darkness was let down with an underdeveloped bad guy origin (relying too heavily perhaps on Khan's history in the Star Trek Universe), then splitting the villainy between him and that Marcus guy from Robocop. Also too much relentless action, no time to smell the roses leading to a sense of poor pacing and structure.

I enjoyed it, but I didn't love it and like all the other films I mentioned, I have little desire to see it again.

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This was wonderful!

Random thoughts:

I like badass Spock. I am constantly surprised by Karl Urban's actorial range. Kirk is... OKAY, really. I am jealous as fuck of Pegg's success, but he earns it here. He is really fucking good!

Chekov and Sulu got kind of fucked, but whatever.

I don't buy Uhuru just yet, but was willingly distracted by the physically impossible Alice Eve.

Cumberbatch did what he was told, I feel. Perhaps the admittedly shit Lindelof was in charge of that character?

I do not feel that TEAM ABRHAMS is the second coming, but this really came together for me in a non-Star-Trek-fan-way.

Alice Eve's Dad was excellent and needs to do more of this kind of thing.

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