Sport Football Thread 2011/2012

[Father Vegetable]

Sticking with the River Plate theme - how about a bit of trivia to liven up a dull Monday afternoon?

Name at least five former River Plate players who have played in the Premier League.

Veron

Right?

[theredstar]

Juan Pablo Angel?

[Death Cab]

Veron

Juan Pablo Angel?

Check!

EDIT: Veron hasn't played for River Plate.

[DeadRussian]

Mascherano and D'Allesandro.

[Yobo Ahoy]

Crespo! The G himself. Good old Football Manager.

[Death Cab]

Mascherano and D'Allesandro.

Crespo! The G himself. Good old Football Manager.

Well done guys! There's another 4 - see if you can get them.

[exwhyzed]

When did Veron play for River Plate?

[Timmo]

Another great goal too. Spain are just too fucking good at the minute, the national team are sweeping all before them, Barcelona are doing the same at club level and the U21s just won their tournament.

Imagine expecting to win every match. It must get a bit boring, really.

[Death Cab]

When did Veron play for River Plate?

Errr... ummm.... he hasn't. I have the answers right here in front of me so I can't even excuse myself for accepting that one!

[exwhyzed]

Did Vivas play for them when he went back to Argentina?

There was a bloke who was at West Brom who came on as a sub and scored. He was in the German league as well. I had him on FM but he has an awkward name.

[Death Cab]

Did Vivas play for them when he went back to Argentina?

Yep - ex-Arsenal. Played a few games for River Plate in 2003.

There was a bloke who was at West Brom who came on as a sub and scored. He was in the German league as well. I had him on FM but he has an awkward name.

Juan Carlos Menseguez was at River Plate as a youth but was sold before he made it into the first team. He played for Wolfsburg in Germany.

[Naysonymous]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jr2CUgm13Bg

So Santos say that five European clubs have matched the €45m (about £40m) buyout clause for Neymar. Those clubs are Real Madrid, Barcelona, Chelsea, Manchester City and... Anzhi Makhachkala.

I haven't seen much of Neymar outside of YouTube clips and the fairly recent game between Brazil and Scotland at the Emirates, where he did look sensational. I assume he will be coming to Europe this summer if that many clubs are in for him, and I guess Anzhi Makhachkala (Roberto Carlos plays there too) and City will be the sides offering the most ridiculous wages. Will he chose to go to Spain where there is less of a language barrier and a somewhat similar climate and culture though? I presume Robinho wont be saying glowing things to him about City either.

[Sirloin]

He's spoken of wanting to play for Real and Chelsea in the past. Will be interesting to see where he goes. Santos want to keep him until January so he can play in the World Club Cup, but I doubt they will be able to. Lots of clubs sniffing around their team though, Milan are after Danilo apparently, and Inter are after Jonathan. Its the curse of being good in South America, get a decent team together and half of it will be poached. But its the model clubs rely on to keep operating.

[Naysonymous]

That's not just South America to be fair, it happens in Europe all the time too. I think Porto were one of the best three or four sides in Europe last season and if they had been in the Champions League they would have probably gone really far in it. That team will be decimated by the super rich clubs now. Same happened to the Bayer Leverkusen team ten years ago. It kinda happened to Wolfsburg last year and it has slowly been happening to Aston Villa over the last two years, we have lost Barry, Milner, Young and probably Downing since 2009. It is the might of the G14 plus one or two select others (namely Manchester City and Chelsea) hoovering up all the talent to go and sit on their respective substitutes benches and it has all but killed football for me.

[Charliemouse]

That's not just South America to be fair, it happens in Europe all the time too. I think Porto were one of the best three or four sides in Europe last season and if they had been in the Champions League they would have probably gone really far in it. That team will be decimated by the super rich clubs now. Same happened to the Bayer Leverkusen team ten years ago. It kinda happened to Wolfsburg last year and it has slowly been happening to Aston Villa over the last two years, we have lost Barry, Milner, Young and probably Downing since 2009. It is the might of the G14 plus one or two select others (namely Manchester City and Chelsea) hoovering up all the talent to go and sit on their respective substitutes benches and it has all but killed football for me.

Thats one of the best posts I have ever read in this thread and its something that really annoys me as well.

[Father Vegetable]

That's not just South America to be fair, it happens in Europe all the time too. I think Porto were one of the best three or four sides in Europe last season and if they had been in the Champions League they would have probably gone really far in it. That team will be decimated by the super rich clubs now. Same happened to the Bayer Leverkusen team ten years ago. It kinda happened to Wolfsburg last year and it has slowly been happening to Aston Villa over the last two years, we have lost Barry, Milner, Young and probably Downing since 2009. It is the might of the G14 plus one or two select others (namely Manchester City and Chelsea) hoovering up all the talent to go and sit on their respective substitutes benches and it has all but killed football for me.

To your Villa comment, you cant really lay claim, being that you spent close to £25 million for Milner, Young and Downing.

[Dude Ranch]

Plus Barry, Milner, Young and Downing. Hardly a foursome to set the world stage on fire. I'd rather have the money, to be honest.

[theredstar]

And will sell them for close to £60 million. That just shows how little £25 million is worth today. Even a middle rank Premier League team like Villa can't keep hold of it's players.

The Champions League has all but killed competitive football in this country for all but a few teams. When I grew up a team like Forest (or, indeed Villa) could win the league. There's no chance of that now. Players (like Milner) are happier to be bit part players at CL clubs, then risk spending time at a club trying to break the fouropoly. The CL generates so much revenue it imbalances the league, and makes it impossible for a team to build slowly.

It's depressing.

[Charliemouse]

The fact is unless a team like Villa get bought by a rich Arab they are never really gonna challenge for the title ever again.

The dream of the fans of lower league teams getting promoted through the divisons and then challenging at the top is one that has sadly been taken away and I doubt will ever return again.

[theredstar]

It's not just rich, it's hyper-rich.

Lerner's no pauper, but he's out of his league without a Champions League revenue stream.

He splashed out a fair bit to chase that, but Villa fell well short, and the club is in a bit of bother financially.

[Naysonymous]

Plus Barry, Milner, Young and Downing. Hardly a foursome to set the world stage on fire. I'd rather have the money, to be honest.

It's not really the point I am trying to make though, is it? They definitely made our team better and its highly likely they will all be squad players at "big" clubs for the next few seasons. That said, I think Ashley Young could go on to be a real superstar at Manchester United. We all knew just how brilliant a player Dwight Yorke was when he was at the Villa, it took a move to Old Trafford for the rest of the world to realise. Ash might just emulate Dwight's success, he certainly has the natural ability.

Even a middle rank Premier League team like Villa can't keep hold of it's players.

The Champions League has all but killed competitive football in this country for all but a few teams. When I grew up a team like Forest (or, indeed Villa) could win the league. There's no chance of that now. Players (like Milner) are happier to be bit part players at CL clubs, then risk spending time at a club trying to break the fouropoly. The CL generates so much revenue it imbalances the league, and makes it impossible for a team to build slowly.

It's depressing

It is very very difficult to build a squad these days because outstanding players just get pruned by somebody on the other side of the glass ceiling, and it gets easier year by year for the biggest clubs to accumulate massively strong squads because of the money the Champions League generates (£30m+ a year if you get to the knockout rounds) and that the league keep changing the rules to allow bigger match day squads. When you were only allowed to have three subs on the bench then you couldnt have twenty full internationals in your squad because players would be unhappy when they never got a game. The talent was spread more evenly around the league. Now you can have 7 players on the bench you can give pretty much anybody a 30 minute run out from the bench when you are 3-0 up at home to Wigan/Blackburn/Wolves and players wont need to leave for first team football. I dare say the squads will be expanded to 11 subs sooner or later, another move which strengthens the sides who are already winning every week anyway.

The Villa have given up because Randy Lerner has realised that a net spend of £25m a season and a £75m wage bill simply isnt enough to compete. You might finish 6th with that kind of spend so what do you do? Spend £100m every summer and have a £120m wage bill which means you might just qualify for the Champions League or spend £10m a year, have a £40m wage bill and finish somewhere between 8th & 12th? You might as well go with the safe option because nobody gives a fuck about the Europa League, so mid table mediocrity and a decent run in the FA Cup is the best that most sides in the Premier League can hope for for the foreseeable future. We can only be a generation or two away from a league where everybody is an armchair Manchester United fan and nobody else gives a fuck because the only kids who are going to start supporting teams like Villa, Everton, Sunderland (etc) are going to be those who's dads force them to, and when the dads stop giving a fuck then the concept of supporting your local team rather than the incredibly successful one who play a hundred miles away will be gone.

The dream of the fans of lower league teams getting promoted through the divisons and then challenging at the top is one that has sadly been taken away and I doubt will ever return again.

Indeed. Who is the best supported team in Plymouth these days? Is it Manchester United or Liverpool? What about in Bristol? Northampton? Brighton? (etc)

[scruffycat]

Exactly. Great post.

[neoELITE]

Indeed. Who is the best supported team in Plymouth these days? Is it Manchester United or Liverpool? What about in Bristol? Northampton? Brighton? (etc)

Probably Man Utd

I think Plymouth is a testament to the little club trying to succeed. We spent loads on wages for some mediocre players and are on the brink of disappearing as a club. We have around 9,000 season ticket holders and were paying out £10,000 a week for Bradley Wright-Phillips... now Peter Risdale is in charge

Even if we'd managed to do a Blackpool (we were 4th when Ian Holloway left us), we'd still never ever get to the point of challenging for honours.

I'm not that interested in the Champions League for the reason that every year it seems the same teams are in it. The days of a team like Nottingham Forest winning the European Cup are long gone.

[AlwaysBeClosing]

Fourth place is always going to be where its at for any aspiring teams - that may change with City now, but I hope it doesn't.

[Herbalizer]

The fact is unless a team like Villa get bought by a rich Arab they are never really gonna challenge for the title ever again.

The dream of the fans of lower league teams getting promoted through the divisons and then challenging at the top is one that has sadly been taken away and I doubt will ever return again.

Swansea have gone from 24th in league two to Premier league in less than ten years. I'm not bothered about top four or even top 10, it's just amazing to be in the league. We've shown it can be done, as did Blackpool.

[phresh]

Indeed. Who is the best supported team in Plymouth these days? Is it Manchester United or Liverpool? What about in Bristol? Northampton? Brighton? (etc)

This isn't really a recent problem though is it? A lot of people seem to think the PL has bought on all the ills but i've seen plenty of middle aged Liverpool fans in the south who picked them up years before the PL even started. If anything it's been less of a problem in this country as we've typically had stronger second tiers than other European leagues and as such a more competitive league overall. It's also worth noting that for both Arsenal and United their success has been largely achieved through a level of stability that seems all but absent at the top level now and United's debt aside should be the models that other teams aspire too rather than throw oil money at. Saying that, financial mis-management has probably caused as much shake up in the leagues (Leeds, Southampton etc.) as teams progressing through the tiers (Blackpool, Wigan etc.).

[Naysonymous]

The jump from the bottom of league 2 to the Premier League is probably less of a jump (financially at least) than the jump from the bottom of the Premier League to the top. Taking nothing away from Swansea of course, rising up is a hell of an achievement and nobody can deny that The Championship is an incredibly tough division to get promoted out of, but there is a very realistic chance that the hope and optimism Swansea fans will be feeling at five to three on the opening day of the season is as good as it ever gets.

I'm going to take my pessimism to bed anyway. Night all.

This isn't really a recent problem though is it? A lot of people seem to think the PL has bought on all the ills but i've seen plenty of middle aged Liverpool fans in the south who picked them up years before the PL even started.

True to a point, but it has amplified and will continue to amplify with every passing year. When I was a kid, the best supported teams in my school were Villa, Coventry and Leicester (I live in north Warwickshire) and while there was a Liverpool or Manchester United fan in every class, they weren't the majority. Twenty years on and the overwhelming majority of people at the school, my nephew now attends the same one as I went to, are Man Utd, Chelsea & Liverpool fans. All three of those sides play in stadiums that are probably two hours away. There are more and more people supporting less and less teams, and eventually we will reach a point where there will be no opposition for Manchester United to beat. I'm not saying it will happen tomorrow, it is probably at least twenty years away but if we keep going down the road where people have no reason to support the team who play just up the road. It is already starting to happen in Spain.

[Sirloin]

That's not just South America to be fair, it happens in Europe all the time too. I think Porto were one of the best three or four sides in Europe last season and if they had been in the Champions League they would have probably gone really far in it. That team will be decimated by the super rich clubs now. Same happened to the Bayer Leverkusen team ten years ago. It kinda happened to Wolfsburg last year and it has slowly been happening to Aston Villa over the last two years, we have lost Barry, Milner, Young and probably Downing since 2009. It is the might of the G14 plus one or two select others (namely Manchester City and Chelsea) hoovering up all the talent to go and sit on their respective substitutes benches and it has all but killed football for me.

I have sod all sympathy for Porto as they hoover up youngsters by the truckload from South America, and they get paid very well for it. They are pretty much a South American team in their behaviour. I really hope that Iturbe doesn't disappear now he's moved there, he was really good for Cerro Porteno when I've seen him.

[the_debaser]

When do the financial fair play rules come in? Hopefully that might have a bearing on where the best players play - they might become more evenly spread around the league if they can't command massive wages along with all the other stars at the larger clubs.

[phresh]

City and Chelsea will need to reduce their wage bills (as a percentage of income) but if anything it's the teams further down who actually have it worse and end up spending way too much on wages. Didn't Hull have the 5th highest wage bill in the PL at one point?

I don't really think it's an issue of top players commanding top salaries but shit ones getting 90k a week that cause the problems.