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Dishonored - Definitive Edition - now 60fps on Xbox Series


The Sarge
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I guess for me, I don't need justification for using stealth. I'll do it or other styles of playing because they are fun for me and that's it. At least with Dishonored you can actually play it as a shooter/melee game if you want. It IS harder than a stealth playthrough as you can get killed a lot more easily, as I found out last night :lol: My problem with Deus Ex HR was, as an amazing game as it was, it was an illusion of choice between a shooter or stealth. Main reason being that as a shooter, it was basically shit so stealth/stealth lethal was the only way to play that game.

Aye. I actually decided that, on my first playthrough at least, I don't want to kill people if I don't have to. And because I like to play it stealthy. I find it fun to time my blinks so that I teleport behind an unexpecting guard, to find good climbing spots, or secret entrances, to listen in on conversations or to use my sleeping darts when I don't see any other option and trying to find a dumpster or bath tub or whatever to hide the body in.

That's all the justification I need. Because I find it fun and because it makes for a challenging game, especially on Very Hard and with no UI whatsoever. I like the challenge.

I might decide to use other powers apart from Blink and Dark Vision when I fuck up or get more powers than I currently have, but as it stands I want be as much of a ghost as possible. I'll stick to not using any indicators and playing on Very Hard for my second playthrough and unwind with my powers or I might go for the trickiest of achievements, or perhaps by then I want to play something with a ridiculously fast pace and play Vanquish again. We'll see. :)

As for the Batman games, they are damn good but they don't come close to offering the freedom and possibilities that you have in this game.

What I think I love most about this, apart from the world itself and the options it gives you, is how fucking well it does navigation. It's an utter joy and I can't think of any other first person game that makes you feel this agile. Well Mirror's Edge, but that doesn't give you the same freedom as Dishonored does. I love games where you have both a horizontal and vertical space to play in.

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I also take serious issue with the criticism that different playstyles are not specifically "rewarded". Why do you need a particular incentive to play the game in a fun and inventive way?

As I said, this is a good game and I enjoy it and I have certainly no intention to compare it to Thief (and I haven't).

I don't need a particular incentive to play the game in a fun and inventive way, that's what I've been doing. But the A.I. is so limited and offers no challenge that there's no tension or proper reward for going stealthy. I could be playing in an empty field, with no NPCs, and I would get almost the same feeling of fun and inventive gameplay, if you know what I mean.

There's no reason to be blinded about the game's shortcomings. It's still a very good one.

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I'm playing on Hard, HUD stuff turned off (great tip that so thanks to those who recommended it), an I've clocked up 23hrs 50mins so far which doesn't include all the time I played then died and had to reload. Four hours, my arse!

This game is the dog's bollocks, the bee's knees, and the badger's nadgers. I have enjoyed every second of it so far and it's just joy to be given a mission, plonked in an area, and left to go about it how you please. The options open to you really make it for me, whether choosing which route to take, whether to go off hunting for runes, or to explore a non-mission critical area, whether to engage an enemy or leave them alone, whether to do a silent takedown or in the most sadistic/gory/hilarious way possible, and enough weapons & special abillities to ensure you can make it as fun as you want. Like any true sandbox game what you do is completely up to you as long as the main mission objective is completed (and even then there are multiple ways of doing them).

I've been playing in a stealthy manner but still have still ended up with a High chaos level at the end of each mission either through crap tactics or the simple enjoyment of turning the City Guard's security equipment on themselves. I've never reloaded because I messed up anything and so I know I've missed out on a other choices. This game has so much replayability value and I look forward to trying the game on Very Hard, trying to fully ghost missions, trying out the more destructive powers, and learning to kill in more ingenious ways.

Until I finish the game I can't say if it'll trump Max Payne as my current GotY but it'll be a close run if it carries on at this quality.

Also I found out that you can't hold onto corpses and climb down ropes at the same, which made my rooftop abduction of a plot critical NPC inadvertently hilarious. I guess the chain was for getting up.

I did that mission last night.....I'm just picturing your senario :lol:

The line about not bothering to stick a mine to a rat then possessing it (which is stolen from a blogpost linked on RPS' The Sunday Papers) because it's easier to have a swordfight is rudimentary and depressing.

Same happened with Bioshock. Here was a game that gave you loads of weapons and plasmids to experiment with and people moaned that you could get through the game with just the initial wrench and Electro-shock.

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I have come to the considered opinion that Thief is still the fucking bestest at stealth and that chap in the review needs a good kicking for his hyperbole.

As I said on the very same day it unlocked in the US:

Having thought about it, I think it's time to temper expectations a little bit:

Has anyone quoted this amazing bit from the RPS 'review' yet?

I haven’t wanted to study and explore a place as much as this since Thief introduced its marvellous warren of secrets, and it’s not only in its superb creation of an urban space both fantastical and relatable that Arkane’s game brings Looking Glass’s work to mind. Dishonored is almost certainly the finest stealth game I’ve played since the dawn of The Metal Age.

That's some praise, we shall see if it's worthy.

Well that specific praise about 'best stealth game since Thief 2' is bullshit, sad to say. The sense of place, the atmosphere, the eye for detail - that all is Looking Glass-like, I'd agree with that. It's probably only going to get better and deeper further into the game. But it's definitely not the best stealth game since Thief 2 because, to be brutally honest, it's not a stealth game. It's a game with stealth elements in it, but it's no more a stealth game than Deus Ex and The Chronicles of Riddick were. In fact, I'd compare Dishonored mostly to Riddick in terms of offering a really strong stealth element that is totally a viable way of playing and enjoying the game. But as a 'pure' stealth game it simply lacks or simplifies too many of the mechanics that make the stealth in Thief so brilliant. The best stealth games since Thief 2 are, from the top of my head, still Chaos Theory and Mark of the Ninja. And Thief 2 is still the best ever of course.

Arkane has said that a non-lethal playthrough is totally viable, but as it turns that doesn't mean the same as a non-detected playthrough, or a ghost playthrough. As I said above, there are sidequests which put the player in a situation in which the only option is to confront hostile NPCs. You can work around this by using things like sleeping darts and probably the power to freeze time if you have it, but you cannot solve some of those situations by purely 'stealthing' them.

Most of you reading this will think 'so fucking what?' and you're right - it doesn't make Dishonored any less of a brilliant game. But for those of you expecting a Thief-like experience, or even a watered down version of it, I'd say it's best to adjust your expectations of this game. It's a great game so far, it has some great optional stealth gameplay to it, but it's not a great stealth game if you know what I mean. Expect more of a Riddick or even Deus Ex -like experience and you're fine.

Thief had it all going for it, the sneaking was amazing but the love and incidental things that went into a level made it all the better. Reading hidden love notes or blackmail letters are what made you feel like a right sneaky mosey bastard. Please give me this.

The incidental detail is there, but since there's no theft gameplay, those hidden notes and letters, at least in the hub areas, don't have the same impact as in Thief. As I said, you simply collect them rather than sneakily stealing them. During the bits where you're infiltrating something it does have a similar impact though :)

I called that particular bit of hyperbole from RPS 'bullshit' as you can see, damn them for getting my (and your) hopes up so high for mentioning Thief 2. I've played the game a lot more since then of course, and I've changed my general view on the game somewhat, but the my educated opinion of the Thief comparison still stands: bullshit. Great game nonetheless.

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yyy's points are valid, but I personally like a more directed approach and this game only seems to work for those who have a great imagination and problem solving skills. But what if you havent?

I am playing right now and am really struggling at one point and really cannot see a solution.

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Holy shit, the Devouring Rats ability is brilliant! Never even tried it until this second playthrough and it was glorious and hilarious. After starting a bit of trouble earlier there were a lot more guards around so I stand perched atop of a vent and summon some rats. Everything goes bananas, all the guards run over and start trying to get rid of the rats and I just keep summoning them :D Meanwhile one of the guards is trying to use his pistol to kill the rats, unfortunately he kills 3 of his guard mates in the process before he then gets eaten by my minions. This game. :wub:

yyy's points are valid, but I personally like a more directed approach and this game only seems to work for those who have a great imagination and problem solving skills. But what if you havent?

I am playing right now and am really struggling at one point and really cannot see a solution.

If you need help just ask! Nothing wrong with that. Which part are you at and what powers/weapons do you have ?

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yyy's points are valid, but I personally like a more directed approach and this game only seems to work for those who have a great imagination and problem solving skills. But what if you haven't?

Play some other game? Not to be a jerk about it, but for a game which has the open and imaginative approach as its entire raison d'être, asking 'what if I don't like having to explore?' is a bit like me asking 'what if I don't like racing games?' in the Forza thread. Personally, I would have liked Dishonored to have gone even further (by not including any markers at all, toggleable or not, and dialling down the handholding a notch or two) and really go all-in with exploration / experimentation = reward approach. As you say, it's not for everyone, but what game is? By trying to appeal to everyone you often (always?) get a watered down experience, and for people who like a more directed approach there are TONS of games out there already. Let Dishonored be the one exception this generation for those who do like this kind of experience, I say.

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Holy shit, the Devouring Rats ability is brilliant! Never even tried it until this second playthrough and it was glorious and hilarious. After starting a bit of trouble earlier there were a lot more guards around so I stand perched atop of a vent and summon some rats. Everything goes bananas, all the guards run over and start trying to get rid of the rats and I just keep summoning them :D Meanwhile one of the guards is trying to use his pistol to kill the rats, unfortunately he kills 3 of his guard mates in the process before he then gets eaten by my minions. This game. :wub:

Oh man now I really can't wait to start my 'kill every single last one of those fuckers'-playthrough :D

This game indeed :wub:

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Play some other game? Not to be a jerk about it, but for a game which has the open and imaginative approach as its entire raison d'être, asking 'what if I don't like having to explore?' is a bit like me asking 'what if I don't like racing games?' in the Forza thread. Personally, I would have liked Dishonored to have gone even further (by not including any markers at all, toggleable or not, and dialling down the handholding a notch or two) and really go all-in with exploration / experimentation = reward approach. As you say, it's not for everyone, but what game is? By trying to appeal to everyone you often (always?) get a watered down experience, and for people who like a more directed approach there are TONS of games out there already. Let Dishonored be the one exception this generation for those who do like this kind of experience, I say.

Funny, I think one of the problems of Dishonored is that it tries to appeal to everyone, to the stealthy and the action guy as well.

That's why it feels like it has an FPS A.I. but a stelth design philosophy.

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Funny, I think one of the problems of Dishonored is that it tries to appeal to everyone, to the stealthy and the action guy as well.

That's why it feels like it has an FPS A.I. but a stelth design philosophy.

As I said, I think it would have been an even better game if they had dared to focus more on stealth and letting the player explore and figure things out for himself, instead of making it as accessible as possible for as many people as possible. I think they did a good job without dumbing it down to be honest (at least if you turn the quest markers off) and I think it's a fucking brilliant game overall. One of the best this gen, easy. But even so, I think it would have been even better if...

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This is getting worse by the minute. It is simply not an enjoyable game for the most part. What annoys me is that I thought this was going to be a fantasticly immersive game in the mold of Bioshock or Half Life 2. Its nothing like those games and seems to have been developed 15 years ago.

The stealth simply DOES NOT WORK and the game seems fundementally broken as it relies on that aspect for you get around. I want to finisg it, but only because I like to finish games, not because its a great game.

I hope it improves or it will be the dissapointment of the year.

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The levels in Batman are narrower, the solutions to problems less varied and more prescriptive. It's not a comparison that even begins to stack up.

I love the Batman games. They are muscular, confident, tight. The combat is good. But the Batman games are not in the same stratosphere as Dishonored.

What? Arkham city is a sprawling open city. The internal levels are the same as Dishonoured. A Building is a building.

Lets look a tthe powers and play mechanics. Dark Vision=Detective mode. crouch to stealth. Silent takdeowns. Drop from above, Rooftop trooftop travel.

Dishonoured and Batman Arkham City are very similar games. Only Batman does it better. But then Batman does it better than almost any game out there.

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Can you explain what you mean when you say the stealth DOES NOT WORK please? It's a fairly definitive statement, so it needs a little explanation. I disagree, obviously.

To say that the game is fundamentally broken as it relies on stealth for you to get around is incorrect as well. There is enough evidence to prove this one or two pages back when people are complaining that it's too easy not to stealth and just bludgeon everyone to death.

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Batman is a lot more guided and linear though, not just overall, but also within each self-contained play area. Doesn't mean its worse of course, just different. I love the Batman games.

Its no more guided than Dishnoured. Arkahsm Asylum, yes, that is much more closed. But Arkham City is open world.

You have a marker to continue your next mission, or you can ignore it and do side missions. When you do get to a self contained play area, you choice of wehtehr to avoid the bad guys completely, or take them out ion a myriad of ways is entirely up to you. I'm really not getting how the two differ in terms of available choices.

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I'm not really getting all the complaints about the stealth. It isn't as comprehensive as Thief but its rules are consistent and easy enough to predict. What aspect is tripping people up? The only thing I can think of is that players are expecting shadows to conceal them indefinitely; they give you an advantage at distance, but if an enemy's close by and looking right at you then the darkness won't keep you concealed.

If you're really having trouble, the lean — hold Y on 360 — is ridiculously useful. Despite Corvo seemingly sticking half his body out when you do it enemies won't see you so long as you were concealed before sticking your neck out, allowing you line up crossbow bolts or Blink markers whilst ostensibly face to face with guards.

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Its no more guided than Dishnoured. Arkahsm Asylum, yes, that is much more closed. But Arkham City is open world.

You have a marker to continue your next mission, or you can ignore it and do side missions. When you do get to a self contained play area, you choice of wehtehr to avoid the bad guys completely, or take them out ion a myriad of ways is entirely up to you. I'm really not getting how the two differ in terms of available choices.

Arkham City's world is much smaller though. One main difference is that in AC you are always forced into combat or stealth. The stealth areas are small areas in which you can toy with your enemies. Great fun, but in Dishonored you make up your own play style. You decide when you fight or if you fight at all.

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Can you explain what you mean when you say the stealth DOES NOT WORK please? It's a fairly definitive statement, so it needs a little explanation. I disagree, obviously.

To say that the game is fundamentally broken as it relies on stealth for you to get around is incorrect as well. There is enough evidence to prove this one or two pages back when people are complaining that it's too easy not to stealth and just bludgeon everyone to death.

Ok, from my point of view, stealth requires areas to HIDE IN away from the bad guys, routes that avoid the bad guys, dark areas so the bad guys cant see you and effective ways to kill bad guys that are quick and silent. Dishonored fails in every aspect.

As for your second point, I just die as soon as I am discovered or if I am really lucky I manage to run away with the bad guys following me Benny Hill style and make it too a point where they cant follow.

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Ok, from my point of view, stealth requires areas to HIDE IN away from the bad guys, routes that avoid the bad guys, dark areas so the bad guys cant see you and effective ways to kill bad guys that are quick and silent. Dishonored fails in every aspect.

It has all of those though?

As for your second point, I just die as soon as I am discovered or if I am really lucky I manage to run away with the bad guys following me Benny Hill style and make it too a point where they cant follow.

Jump or blink away, go for height.

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Ok, from my point of view, stealth requires areas to HIDE IN away from the bad guys, routes that avoid the bad guys, dark areas so the bad guys cant see you and effective ways to kill bad guys that are quick and silent. Dishonored fails in every aspect.

No, it doesn't. You can do all those things. It's exactly the way I play and when I fuck up, it always feels like it's my own fault.

This game is brilliant at discovering hidden routes through drainpipes and the like or by Blinking up to some ledges where enemies can't spot you or by diving into water and swimming underneath guards and so on.

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Its no more guided than Dishnoured. Arkahsm Asylum, yes, that is much more closed. But Arkham City is open world.

You have a marker to continue your next mission, or you can ignore it and do side missions. When you do get to a self contained play area, you choice of wehtehr to avoid the bad guys completely, or take them out ion a myriad of ways is entirely up to you. I'm really not getting how the two differ in terms of available choices.

Like I said, it's a shitload more guided and straightforward in Batman, with each route and option clearly marked and segmented off from the others. Yeah, they superficially try to do the same thing, but they each do it in a different way.

Ok, from my point of view, stealth requires areas to HIDE IN away from the bad guys, routes that avoid the bad guys, dark areas so the bad guys cant see you and effective ways to kill bad guys that are quick and silent. Dishonored fails in every aspect.

I think you're trying to play it like a shadow-based stealth game. In Dishonored, crouching in the shadows does nothing when the enemies are close. You're hidden when you're behind something, and you're visible when you're not.That's why the lean function is essential, by leaning sideways from behind cover you can remain hidden while observing your adversaries. It works perfectly well, especially when you get to the last bit.

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From some developer diary or other, they appear to have started out trying to implement Thief-style hiding in shadows, but it didn't work out for them; changed the balance of the game.

The lean-from-cover mechanic smells a little like a compensatory mechanism; you need to be able to observe movement patterns and maybe attack from a hidden vantage point, so it sounds relatively simple to move the viewpoint while not updating your body's 'hit box' location.

On the other hand, both height and Dark Vision also allow for this, so maybe not.

But yeah, lean+sleep darts+telescoping lens is great for non-lethal sniping.

Anyone know if an incidental death caused by a guard battling another NPC is attributed to you? Couple of times in the first real mission, a guard at the other end of the street has spotted a guard member guarding a back alley; they go hurtling off and fight him, either killing him or attracting and getting killed by a horde of rats on the way. I'd hope they'd only be tracking deaths caused by player agency, but you never know.

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Like I said, it's a shitload more guided and straightforward in Batman, with each route and option clearly marked and segmented off from the others. Yeah, they superficially try to do the same thing, but they each do it in a different way.

I disagree, but we can agree to differ :)

I think you're trying to play it like a shadow-based stealth game. In Dishonored, crouching in the shadows does nothing when the enemies are close. You're hidden when you're behind something, and you're visible when you're not.That's why the lean function is essential, by leaning sideways from behind cover you can remain hidden while observing your adversaries. It works perfectly well, especially when you get to the last bit.

Yeah took me a little bit to get used to the fact that darkness counts for shit and its all about hiding behind things. To be honest though its all about going vertical.
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I actually like the removal of light and dark, it frees them up to do much more in terms of varied art and level design in the environment with day scenes and so on.

I think the problem is that almost every game with steath mechanics makes use of shadows these days and has done since the days of Splinter Cell. To not have it in seems a bit of a retrograde step.

Its like playing an FPS without an aim function; we are so used to having that ability that to not have its feels completely alien.

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This game is brilliant at discovering hidden routes through drainpipes and the like or by Blinking up to some ledges where enemies can't spot you or by diving into water and swimming underneath guards and so on.

But you don't have to do all of the above. Or even some of them.You can do them for fun, sure, but there's no sense of achievement because the things you are trying to avoid present no threat at all. It's like you're playing with yourself, constantly trying to outsmart your previous efforts, which is fine by itself but not really that much great in the end. For me at least.

I can understand that you are enjoying it, I am too, but It's another thing to enjoy this kind of design and another thing to try and argue that this is how it should work, especially for a stealth game.

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I am not saying that it's how it should work, it was a reply to the 'it's a shit stealth game, cause you can't do all these things' criticism above.

Like I said earlier, I play it the way I do because I enjoy playing it that way. To me, ghosting a level and not killing characters definitely provides a sense of achievement. It makes it tense as well, as I don't want to get spotted. And perhaps it's because I don't have that many powers yet, but playing on Super Hard with no UI is a challenge. Perhaps this changes when I get more powers, we'll see.

I'm sure I'll mess around with the other gameplay systems as well, but that's the beauty of it for me: I can play it the way I want to play it. Not because I have to. That's a pretty rare thing.

People take different things from games and that's fine.

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