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Dishonored - Definitive Edition - now 60fps on Xbox Series


The Sarge
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Played the Boyle mission last night, just drifting around the party with all the fantastic NPC dialogue, the waitresses saying hi etc as I walked past. Couple of guys smoking, look at me, one blows smoke in my face :) Then throws the cigarette in the floor - So much quality and detail in this game. Then after I did a few side missions I got a surprise payoff when I got back to the Hounds Pits. Love how there's these little intricate bits that you might never discover.

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Hundreds? Who said anything about hundreds? Why do you instinctively reach for a massive exaggeration in a bid to make my position look absurd?

People have only been asking for a few more non-lethal options.

And i'm nothing it as what seems to be one of the few areas the game may have underachieved in.

Because you've obviously not played it, but quote others (invalid) criticisms as though they're gospel and then get defensive when called on the fact they're invalid?

The game doesn't have multiple types of pistol or sword stroke either - it's crossbow (sleep/normal - long range), pistol/sword (close range), choke (stealth, short range). Then there are stealth skills (avoid enemies), and lethal skills (don't avoid enemies). The grammar of the game doesn't require additional ways of incapacitating people - so it's obvious arkane haven't confused the matter by including them simply to meet some pointless back of box ticklist that would satisfy people who read shit reviews.

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Yeah, I really want to switch to third person, not to play like that but just to pan around and look at myself like I do in skyrim. Maybe an option to view the action when you pause like Smash Bros has and take screenshots.

I kind of get the non lethal weapons thing, as I briefly considered the non lethal approach but decided that all the killing toys looked like too much fun, though that might just mean I'm a sadistic bastard. I think the only thing you could really say its missing is tools to facilitate a non lethal play through that wasn't totally stealthy. If you're playing as a killer you have multiple options for killing groups of enemies at once, spring razors and grenades, wind blasting them on stuff or lining the pistol up right. Maybe a knockout mine or gas grenade? Still, it's a pretty minor consideration.

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I do agree that it's strange the game only seems to have a couple of options for non-lethal take downs- simply because, you're give a lot more lethal toys to play with, and then told early on that if you use them, you'll be making the game a lot harder for yourself later on. I don't know how hard it does become later since I'm only up to the second assassination, but for a game to do that is slightly wonky design.

As for what other non-lethal methods you could have, how about traps that knock guards unconscious, or ones that trap them and hold them in one place, or gas grenades, or even ways that you can use fear to scare guards away from certain areas? And that's just stuff I've come up with thinking about in about 5 minutes. I think it's a bit odd to suggest that you should just be happy with using choking and sleep darts when the game does kind of encourage you to go non-lethal and only use those methods. And yes, I know you can avoid enemies rather than killing them, but really that's just a huge pain in the ass when you want to explore areas and trudge back and forth, and again, it's just not as fun as using all those other gadgets.

I'm assuming the game doesn't get that much harder for killing a moderate amount of people, but again, the game doesn't let on about this, and you shouldn't have to go reading stuff on the net to know for sure.

tl;dr- Game: "Here's some fun toys!...It's better if you don't use them!"

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Yeah gas grenade would be good, or a non lethal trap, that holds an enemy for a while. But as you say a perfect wishlist for a fantastic game.

Playing as a killer, its quite strange being able to walk around a cleared level without any respawning going on.

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I think you can get away with quite a lot if you take out the main targets in a non-lethal manner. In the first mission I killed over 20 guards and still got a low chaos rating, but I took the target out non-lethally.

If the main hindrance for a high chaos rating is weepers then that's a rather trivial change. They're piss-easy to deal with.

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I'm mixing things up now and the game feels much smoother for doing so. It's satisfying to use the crossbow to snipe from distance and have the camera follow the bolt all the way to the head, and then for the body to vanish in a puff of smoke ensuring the next bloke gets the same treatment, but it's equally good to just blast away with the gun from time to time. My chaos level is still low although I must have killed almost everyone during the third mission.

The whole Bridge level felt extremely reminiscent of Half Life 2 - I kept expecting a crow bar to feature at some point. I loved crouching on the roof near the beginning above the security checkpoint and plotting the way forward. Basically if you think you should be able to get somewhere in this game, you can.

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I think you can get away with quite a lot if you take out the main targets in a non-lethal manner. In the first mission I killed over 20 guards and still got a low chaos rating, but I took the target out non-lethally.

If the main hindrance for a high chaos rating is weepers then that's a rather trivial change. They're piss-easy to deal with.

Really? I assumed it was the number of people you killed overall rather than having more weight on the actual targets themselves- I only killed one guard I think, but went for a lethal method for the first assassination, but still had low chaos (although I'm guessing it's cumulative).

Yeah, that will be a rather empty threat if that's all you get for high chaos.

Still a great game though, and I do like the fact that it tries to tie the chaos mechanic into the story/setting- ie, more deaths equals more rats, equals more plague. It's fun going through spotting more inventive ways of getting rid of guards for a second playthrough too (first mission slight spoiler):

like releasing the crazed dog in the kennels- I only spotted that after I'd silently choked all the guards in that area. Next time though :twisted:

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I do agree that it's strange the game only seems to have a couple of options for non-lethal take downs- simply because, you're give a lot more lethal toys to play with, and then told early on that if you use them, you'll be making the game a lot harder for yourself later on. I don't know how hard it does become later since I'm only up to the second assassination, but for a game to do that is slightly wonky design.

As for what other non-lethal methods you could have, how about traps that knock guards unconscious, or ones that trap them and hold them in one place, or gas grenades, or even ways that you can use fear to scare guards away from certain areas? And that's just stuff I've come up with thinking about in about 5 minutes. I think it's a bit odd to suggest that you should just be happy with using choking and sleep darts when the game does kind of encourage you to go non-lethal and only use those methods. And yes, I know you can avoid enemies rather than killing them, but really that's just a huge pain in the ass when you want to explore areas and trudge back and forth, and again, it's just not as fun as using all those other gadgets.

I'm assuming the game doesn't get that much harder for killing a moderate amount of people, but again, the game doesn't let on about this, and you shouldn't have to go reading stuff on the net to know for sure.

tl;dr- Game: "Here's some fun toys!...It's better if you don't use them!"

Ah, so you sort of want a non-lethal equivalent for all the lethal options available to you? I guess I automatically assumed that if you want to do combat, you wouldn't care about killing or not killing, you just want to get through the level by any means necessary. My first thought is, why even bother with making all those fun toys lethal in the first place if you can do everything in a non-lethal manner while playing the exact same way? That doesn't seem like something which adds more depth to the overall gameplay experience, but simply dilutes it. The alternative to combat is stealth and, if you choose to do so, a non-lethal way of approaching things. But this adds a lot of challenge because you can't simply go through all the enemies, you now have to avoid them and be smart about it. But what you're suggesting makes all of this inconsequential because you can simply go charging in with the same straightforward combat tactics, grenades and traps and whatnot, and still do a non-lethal run. Which would suck all the fun out of being able to do a non-lethal run at all. I dunno, I think we're looking at it from completely different perspectives, but thanks to your explanation I now understand what Smitty was trying to say. To me, a non-lethal playthrough is a very immersive and fun challenge when a game offers the option to do so and implements it well. For you guys it's just another way of playing, not really different from the bogstandard way, only the enemies go to sleep instead of exploding. For me that's a very strange way of looking at it, but I guess I'm looking at it from the perspective of a stealth fan - I'm guessing from what you're saying and what Smitty said about different reviewers mentioning it, that there's a large group of gamers who simply have a different perspective on the matter.

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My first thought is, why even bother with making all those fun toys lethal in the first place if you can do everything in a non-lethal manner while playing the exact same way?

Well I'd prefer if a few of the lethal toys were replaced with some non-lethal ones, and some of the powers were less based around killing, and more a versatile tool that can be used for combat/stealth/exploration like Blink can.

The alternative to combat in stealth and, if you choose to do so, a non-lethal way of approaching things.

I'd say there's four or so approaches:

  • Frontal combat - very easy and a bit dull
  • Stealth kill - sneak around and stab dudes; a bit like stealth nonlethal except you have a lot of options when you're spotted (I think the game wants people to play it this way)
  • Stealth nonlethal - stealth around and knock out dudes, but you have fewer options and are limited to running away when spotted (everyone seems to be playing it this way as their first playthrough).
  • Ghost - pure stealth evasion, not always supported by the game as shown by several sidequests, but put in as a challenge (you seem to be playing it this way)

But what you're suggesting makes all of this inconsequential because you can simply go charging in with the straightforward combat tactics and still do a non-lethal run. Which would suck all of the fun of being able to do a non-lethal run in the first place.

That's a bit unfair, no one is asking for them to be identical. They can be as assymetric as you like, people would just like there to be a bit more balance between the 1 non-lethal weapon and the 10 or so lethal ones, and the many lethal powers. I think they were expecting something like Deus Ex, where they're assymetric experiences, but given equal weight rather than what we got, which seems to favour stealth kill playthroughs, with non-lethal options which seem to exist purely for knocking out important NPCs (like how sleep bolts are the only ammo type whose capacity can't be upgraded).

DE:HR for example had three nonlethal weapons, corresponding to sniper rifle, pistol and shotgun, and all of which had some additional limitations that made them different from lethal equivalents (the pistol needed to recharge, the sniper rifle was single shot and had drop-off that needed compensating, plus it had delayed effect if you missed the head, the shotgun needed to charge up to fire).

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I think there's some initial confusion re stealthiness and lethalness. It seems from what I have seen so far, that a quietly lethal approach is also potentially the stealthiest, using the knife and the cross bow and the power which vapourises the bodies. For a non-lethal run I am not sure I am going to waste time choking etc especially where there are no convienient bins to hide the evidence (leaving them in a dark corner is risky), but simply try to avoid them, and if that fails to hide or run away until the heat dies down - so that would be a non-ghost run for those sections.

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Ah, so you sort of want a non-lethal equivalent for all the lethal options available to you? I guess I automatically assumed that if you want to do combat, you wouldn't care about killing or not killing, you just want to get through the level by any means necessary. My first thought is, why even bother with making all those fun toys lethal in the first place if you can do everything in a non-lethal manner while playing the exact same way? That doesn't seem like something which adds more depth to the overall gameplay experience, but simply dilutes it. The alternative to combat is stealth and, if you choose to do so, a non-lethal way of approaching things. But this adds a lot of challenge because you can't simply go through all the enemies, you now have to avoid them and be smart about it. But what you're suggesting makes all of this inconsequential because you can simply go charging in with the same straightforward combat tactics, grenades and traps and whatnot, and still do a non-lethal run. Which would suck all of the fun of being able to do a non-lethal run in the first place. I dunno, I think we're looking at it from completely different perspectives, but thanks to your explanation I now understand what Smitty was trying to say. To me, a non-lethal playthrough is a very immersive and fun challenge when a game offers the option to do so and implements it well. For you guys it's just another way of playing, not really different from the bogstandard way, only the enemies go to sleep instead of exploding. For me that's a very strange way of looking at it, but I guess I'm looking at it from the perspective of a stealth fan - I'm guessing from what you're saying and what Smitty said about different reviewers mentioning it, that there's a large group of gamers who simply have a different perspective on the matter.

It might not be what Smitty was saying, but that's my take on it.

Plus, it wasn't so much that there are only 2 non-lethal methods of dispatching guards, more that there are loads more killing devices, but then the game says 'DON'T USE THEM MUCH!!!'. I just found that a bit weird- I care about not killing over killing because the game specifically tells me that I should. And, I'm still giving myself more of a challenge and a different experience to murdering them all since I have to hide unconscious bodies, and they can be woken up by people.

My preference would be to want to explore as much as the finely crafted world as possible, but I don't want to have to keep avoid ALL of the guards to do that. I don't mind waiting and observing their patrol routines, finding shortcuts etc a few times but in some of the areas there are lots of buildings/rooms to go in, and to have to do that each time isn't that enjoyable. Also, I think we can all agree that using gadgets is fun, so it'd be nice to have a few more options, even just for variety, when the game tells me I should try and avoid death.

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Edge article on the morality of Dishonored (to kill or not to kill):

http://www.edge-onli...y-be-no-answer/

The chaos meter certainly provides an interesting spin on the whole concept of killing and choice in games. In titles like Deus Ex, Thief and Fallout, where bloodless approaches are also possible, avoiding killing is more of a skill measure: the better you are, the less you need to use deadly force, and their gameworlds don’t tend to judge you. But Dishonored adds feedback to your choices, making you engage with the fiction of the universe – is this a story about redemption or retribution? Is it about utilising or repressing power?

Ultimately, the design builds up into the game’s overall theme: are you going to take the easy – and pleasurable – route and kill your way through the game? This how the weak and corrupted people you’re assigned to assassinate behave; can you really only operate on their level? Or will you be an exemplar, taking the hard route by exercising self-control in not using those deliciously fun-to-use weapons and skills?

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Let me put it this way, and again emphasise that is my personal way of looking at it, I think it's a shame that the sleeping darts are there at all. I love it when a stealth game adds the possibility of doing a non-lethal playthrough, which, to me, is a fun additional challenge and per definition a more challenging way of playing that game. If implemented well, it can be very immersive and a lot of fun.Stealth doesn't necessarily mean non-lethal to me, but non-lethal does mean stealth. If a game offers me the exact same way of taking out enemies in a non-lethal manner as I would in a lethal approach, i.e. firing sleeping bolts instead of crossbow bolts, using sleepy time bullets instead of regular bullets in Splinter Cell, it adds nothing to the game as far as I'm concerned. Yes, you didn't kill that enemy and the stat screen shows it, but all you did is fire bullet B instead of bullet A. Offering a non-lethal option in this way therefore doesn't make the game more interesting to me at all. I don't do a non-lethal playthough because I pity the NPC's. feeling sorry for killing them, or even because I get a different ending or whatever. I do it for a fun extra challenge, but if a non-lethal playthrough plays (as in gameplay, not story/ending) out the same way as a lethal one, why would I bother?

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That's not really answering the point that it can be assymetrical though.

With the ability to come up with a huge range of weapon abilities and powers, the only point lethal and nonlethal might need to overlap is in the "kill/knockout" melee sneak prompt. They could be completely different experiences, just given a bit more equal weight.

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Let me put it this way, and again emphasise that is my personal way of looking at it, I think it's a shame that the sleeping darts are there at all. I love it when a stealth game adds the possibility of doing a non-lethal playthrough, which, to me, is a fun additional challenge and per definition a more challenging way of playing that game. If implemented well, it can be very immersive and a lot of fun.Stealth doesn't necessarily mean non-lethal to me, but non-lethal does mean stealth. If a game offers me the exact same way of taking out enemies in a non-lethal manner as I would in a lethal approach, i.e. firing sleeping bolts instead of crossbow bolts, using sleepy time bullets instead of regular bullets in Splinter Cell, it adds nothing to the game as far as I'm concerned. Yes, you didn't kill that enemy and the stat screen shows it, but all you did is fire bullet B instead of bullet A. Offering a non-lethal option in this way therefore doesn't make the game more interesting to me at all. I don't do a non-lethal playthough because I pity the NPC's. feeling sorry for killing them. I do it for a fun extra challenge, but if a non-lethal pkaythrough plays out the same way as a lethal one, why would I bother?

I was just going to pick up on that point, with you saying that why put non-lethal things in since it would be playing it exactly the same way, but those few mechanisms are in the game (sleep darts and choke), so it's obvious the game designers considered people playing that way. It just would have been nice if they'd have gone a bit further with that.

But it does add things to the game. Firstly, on a mechanical level- I have to grab the guard, often before he hits the floor. I have to hide his body. I run the risk that if he's found, he'll be woken up and put back into action. Also, it helps with immersion- I do feel sorry for some of them! Some of the conversations you overhear hint at the lives these people have. They've got famililes, aspirations, whole lives which are hinted at. Sure, I don't want to just avoid them and run the risk of them creeping up behind me later, but I don't want to KILL them. That gives me quite a nice moral question to consider, and I can make a choice. I'm playing the character in the game I want to be.

I just think we both could have easily had the game we wanted Mr Gerbik, but the designers just perhaps didn't go as far as they could have with the non-lethal methods, even though they obviously intended for them to be used (hence a few inclusions).

Also, again, am I the only one who thinks it's weird for the game to give you loads of killing tools but then strongly suggest that you don't use them?

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Stealth is all about the level design. In this I'm finding it pretty hit and miss, unlike Thief say where the level design was generally just great.

When it works well in Dishonoured it's awesome. The Sokolov mission comes to mind (3rd or 4th mission maybe) because my progress around the map felt natural, the verticality especially. I didn't feel that there were too many conveniently placed ledges, pipes and air ducts. It was pretty close to perfection and it felt very right. The High Overseer mission on the other hand I found the complete opposite. I think in a stealth game, when you are actively having to look for something conveniently placed by a designer to progress the level structure has failed. I imagine it's a tough skill for a designer and probably why so many stealth games are very hit and miss.

The sleep darts are the single most stupid thing in the game. You don't have to use them but they essentially trivialise a lot of the game. Surely giving the effect of them a time limit would have helped immensley here to create a tension in their use.

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Hmm. Couldn't find the post asking if guards would wake up - I think it may be possible. I spent absolutely aaaaaaaaages on the Campbell mission, to the point that I had neutralised everyone in the building (mainly because

I forgot to release Martin

:facepalm:

).

I failed to Ghost the mission because I had 4 'discovered' bodies listed at the end. Fair enough - those may have been ones I had left at the top of the stairs, around the corner a little; I should have hidden them a little better. Although I thought there were three. Anyway, there was no sign of them when I went back at one point, just a scatter of weapons; I didn't have to take them out a second time, they just disappeared.

But one guy I took out of a window and dumped on a ledge; I'm pretty sure he's the guy I found wandering about saying 'Where are you? I know you're in here' when I was heading back at the end of the mission - having finally remembered what I had failed to do earlier - carrying the body of Overseer Campbell. I guess I might have left him in sight of the window - but I'm not sure who could have woken him up as by this point there was no-one in the building still awake. I know because I had been running - not sneaking - running around looking for clues as to how to get the last door open. I wonder if the game code 'patrols' the guard routes when you're out of the area even if there are no physical bodies that you can take out.

Also, one odd thing:

I saved Curnow; however, he was following closely behind Campbell, down the stairs, so I choked him out so I wouldn't be spotted when I took out Campbell. But when I talked to whatsherface back at the pub the next day, she said he hadn't come home and assumed he was dead. Anyone else get this? I worry a little that by leaving him there, I may have doomed him.

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Yeah, you doomed him. If you KO him, the game tells you to put him in a safe place - hiding him in a bin outside will do it. Leaving him exposed in the HQ of the institution plotting to kill him, not so much.

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Some of the conversations you overhear hint at the lives these people have. They've got famililes, aspirations, whole lives which are hinted at. Sure, I don't want to just avoid them and run the risk of them creeping up behind me later, but I don't want to KILL them. That gives me quite a nice moral question to consider, and I can make a choice. I'm playing the character in the game I want to be.

The heart is good for this - although you get a conflicting pictures, sometimes; say, a family guy who also happens to torture people. Like, what would you do with Michael Palin's character from Brazil? Let him live?

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Yeah, you doomed him. If you KO him, the game tells you to put him in a safe place - hiding him in a bin outside will do it. Leaving him exposed in the HQ of the institution plotting to kill him, not so much.

D'oh!

That's the other thing I learned - check your mission notes *a lot*.

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I like the stuff the heart says. When I started the game, I wondered why all the bridges across the river seem to be destroyed - there's one visible in the intro in Dunwall Tower, and another near the Hound Pits pub. It mentioned a bursting barrier that washed them away. It seems that pre-game the Wrenhaven Barrier burst, and they were destroyed by the rushing water, which also flooded one of the city districts (which you hear on the propaganda announcements is where the plague victims are taken to).

The worldbuilding by glimpse and omission is seriously good.

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