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and so are ISS98 and SWOS.

Comparing PES3 to SWOS is like comparing Mario Kart to F355 - Utterly pointless.

The best football game ever released

...is SWOS. that's the only contention I was making, not comparing the two games. PES3 compares appallingly with WE6FE.

Ah I see - ok, horses for courses and all that. Have you tried out Football fusion yet?

yes, didn't find the management engine any use though really (xbox). TCM 2003 on PC was much better than that, which is why I was expecting good things.

quite enjoy career mode itself on FIFA 2004 though. it works very well as a package for some reason.

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WE6FE just beat me in a match, 3-2.

their goals all came directly from corners, meaning there was no way I could stop them (remember, you can't move defenders at corners on PES games).

the second and third corners were, in actual fact, goal kicks. however, the CPU knew that the only way it could score was from a corner.

why are games allowed to do this? is there any point to their cheating? it just leaves their players (rightly) enraged. why do games have to cheat in such a blatant way? to sell more joypads to replace the broken ones? ;)

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why are games allowed to do this? is there any point to their cheating? it just leaves their players (rightly) enraged. why do games have to cheat in such a blatant way? to sell more joypads to replace the broken ones? ;)

Because its realistic!

Sometimes corners are mistakenly given in real life! Sometimes there is nothing you can do to defend a corner in real life!

:lol:

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Guest Penguin_Lad
WE6FE just beat me in a match, 3-2.

their goals all came directly from corners, meaning there was no way I could stop them (remember, you can't move defenders at corners on PES games).

the second and third corners were, in actual fact, goal kicks. however, the CPU knew that the only way it could score was from a corner.

why are games allowed to do this? is there any point to their cheating? it just leaves their players (rightly) enraged. why do games have to cheat in such a blatant way? to sell more joypads to replace the broken ones? ;)

It is too easy to score from corners it has to be said...the PES games have always been like this.

When I got PES3, I would pray for a corner. Desailly ended up being one of my leading scorers early on, because he was the target at corners.

That's another thing...if the CPU clears from a corner, you've left a defender up the pitch. Why can't you CHOOSE who you want up there on a corner? If there's a couple of minutes left and you are winning by a single goal, would you really stick your best centre back into an offensive position?

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WE6FE just beat me in a match, 3-2.

their goals all came directly from corners, meaning there was no way I could stop them (remember, you can't move defenders at corners on PES games).

the second and third corners were, in actual fact, goal kicks. however, the CPU knew that the only way it could score was from a corner.

why are games allowed to do this? is there any point to their cheating? it just leaves their players (rightly) enraged. why do games have to cheat in such a blatant way? to sell more joypads to replace the broken ones? ;)

This is why in PES/WE I never play on the harder levels...

Above 3 stars there's a serious danger of me either choking to death on a stream of curses or tearing the joypad from the socket and running down the street swinging it round my head screaming in rage...

And you get into bad habits as well which make me more predictable if not playing human opposition for a while...

I maintain that (imho) ISS Pro Evolution on the PSOne was the best version...

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why are games allowed to do this? is there any point to their cheating? it just leaves their players (rightly) enraged. why do games have to cheat in such a blatant way? to sell more joypads to replace the broken ones?  ;)

Because its realistic!

Sometimes corners are mistakenly given in real life! Sometimes there is nothing you can do to defend a corner in real life!

:lol:

I :D sarcasm.

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There should never be stuff out of the players control in sports games (witness Madden and penalties on the snap by my players! AAARRRRGGHhhhhh...)

IF there is it should be optional, in real life you're part of a team and not responsible for others actions but in a game you are the ONLY person who should be in control...

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My problems with PES (excluding the obviousness that is the terrible lack of teams):

Very very bad refereeing: You can be the last man and hack your mate down, and escape without a booking. Infuriates them and it does feel like cheating without the penalty real life provides.

Player changing: While I've mostly mastered this, and always feel I'm in control of the right player, my mate is constantly moaning and I can't work out what he's doing wrong. So maybe there's a problem there. I do remember that last night I selected my goalie (despite the option to do so being off) and subsequently conceded a goal.

Tackling: I'm pretty adept at this, but the game does have trouble with it's foul recognition. You can take the ball cleanly, one footed, and then clip the player at times and the game will give a foul. And on one occasion I slid without a player in a five metre radius around mine. And the ref gave a foul. Naturally. Though aside from these niggles, which are rare enough to be put down to refereeing mistakes (or blatant stupidity for that last one) it's the best tackling system I've ever seen in a football game.

CPU cheats: On higher skill levels, they cheat like hell. They are faster, stronger and more accurate than you are. It's frustrating and it's a cover up for the weak AI which can't cope with you being fairly talented. It ups the challenge level by making you play against Supermen. Personally, I'm anti-skill levels in football games. Let the team you choose determine the difficulty, a la Sensible World of Soccer.

My highlights: The shooting system is the best I've ever used. You have to carve open space, pick your spot and aim properly. A tap on the stick to aim for the side of the goals, leave it to shoot down the middle. If the ball's moving faster away from you, you shoot lower, like real life. The height bar is excellent, giving you a minor skill to master (shooting along the ground is the best way to score one-on-ones). Most importantly, when you do score, it's elative. You love it. You didn't just press sprint, got into space and pressed shoot to ensure a goal, you timed the burst of pace, you controlled the ball and you picked your spot, or you shot first time to an area of the goal giving you the best chance of scoring. You did it. It's great.

Proper physics: The ball does not react and move to suit the players - they react and move to respond to the ball. It's a simple idea, difficult to implement right but what makes all my favourite football games, throughout the ages. Emlyn Hughes International Soccer and SWOS had it (although both cheated when it came to control - the player did this invisibly) and the ISS and PES series take it to new levels. Players must control the ball, rather than assuming the ball will move with them. It adds depth.

Realism: It looks and plays like football. It's not pinball like SWOS or button bashing like the early FIFAs. You pass, you move, you carve open chances using real life tactics as best as you can implement. You can't beat the feeling.

For me, PES3 is the best football game hands down. SWOS in second place has the benefit of masses of leagues and the cutest players known to man, but in single player it lacks the depth of it's younger cousin. Multiplayer though it's great.

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When I shoot and miss, I want it to be because of my mistake, if I tackle and fail I want it to be my mistake. I dont want randomness affecting the overall score, because I want to be in control. It is all very well saying that is how it is in real football, but if we wanted to play real football we would be outside.

I agree. Analogue control is a real bonus here if it gets implemented properly. You don't want a game where all your players have the same shooting accuracy, because that'd be wank. They have to have different attributes.

So if I was designing the system, there'd be a threshold where if you aim roughly in that direction, the attribute system will do the rest. If the player is a good finisher, the threshold will be larger allowing more room for error.

No randomness though. That becomes frustrating.

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I am still never playing the game again, because of other things I'd noticed:

- when going in for the sliding tackle, from a perfect angle, the ever-amazing AI decides to switch player so what was going to be a perfect front slide assault becomes a red card from the guy behind. Hmm, okay.

- heads up: my players (the Italian side) have got the amazing ability to miss absolutely every single high ball by knocking it with their chest, or when going for a pass nobbing it with their ankle. And I thought these highly trained proffessionals! Whoops, silly me!

- the realism argument isn't cutting it with me. In reality, players make mistakes about once a match, if at all. In this, players are constantly slipping up, tripping over their laces and twatting the ball with their hands. Which itself was a pointless addition.

- controlling the keeper, if at all, is totally out of order. There's no player marker, and for all I know the player indicator could have switched without telling me. AGAIN.

Rage!

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I am still never playing the game again, because of other things I'd noticed:

- when going in for the sliding tackle, from a perfect angle, the ever-amazing AI decides to switch player so what was going to be a perfect front slide assault becomes a red card from the guy behind. Hmm, okay.

- heads up: my players (the Italian side) have got the amazing ability to miss absolutely every single high ball by knocking it with their chest, or when going for a pass nobbing it with their ankle. And I thought these highly trained proffessionals! Whoops, silly me!

- the realism argument isn't cutting it with me. In reality, players make mistakes about once a match, if at all. In this, players are constantly slipping up, tripping over their laces and twatting the ball with their hands. Which itself was a pointless addition.

- controlling the keeper, if at all, is totally out of order. There's no player marker, and for all I know the player indicator could have switched without telling me. AGAIN.

Rage!

don't get me wrong, I HATE PES3, but if you're playing any other PES/WE games in future, bear in mind that (to address a couple of your points)

1/ you can disable auto player-switching* by moving the energy bar-type-thing on the assign-player-to-team screen all the way to the left until you see 'manual'.

2/ you can bring the keeper out early using the through-ball button if the opponent is through on goal.

*there is no way to disable auto player-monging.

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It's f*cking dire, the biggest gaming letdown of 2003.

The graphics are still awful, the commentry gets worse each year and the presentation/menus must have been designed by a blind monkey. The players still turn like they have a rod up their arse, and always delay just long enough for the CPU to gain the ball after being tackled. And thats just the expected crap.

The handball rule is shocking, plus it only ever seems to be given against the attacker. The player movement off the ball is a total joke, I've seen school kids make better runs off the ball. Any kid of tackle from the side is now a foul, what the f*ck is that all about. Signing a player in the master league is as much fun as getting a tooth pulled out. The keepers are far worse than any other of the Pro Evo games, I've lost count of how many goals I've seen from just punting in a long ball that the keeper miss's, or how many simple saves that it fumbles.

Plus the game had the most f*cked up player switching ever, in nine out of ten times giving you control of a player further away from the ball than the guy you had and in a worse position.

Dreadful game, by far the worst in the series and a total f*ck up by Konami. Oh and it's not realistic, if you think that it is you really need to go watch a real match.

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real life tactics

let me just pick you up on this, Fry.

defenders in PES games have NO IDEA what they're defending; they are absolutely unaware of the goal they're meant to be protecting.

if an opponent player has rounded the keeper and is going to shoot at the empty goal, defenders make a bee-line for the player about to shoot (and not even to the ball, to the PLAYER) instead of protecting the goal-line like they blatantly should.

this kind of shitty logic persists in various situations in the entire game.

games of PES are hilarious to watch because the AI players haven't got the faintest clue what the fuck they're meant to be doing!

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I am still never playing the game again, because of other things I'd noticed:

- when going in for the sliding tackle, from a perfect angle, the ever-amazing AI decides to switch player so what was going to be a perfect front slide assault becomes a red card from the guy behind. Hmm, okay.

- heads up: my players (the Italian side) have got the amazing ability to miss absolutely every single high ball by knocking it with their chest, or when going for a pass nobbing it with their ankle. And I thought these highly trained proffessionals! Whoops, silly me!

Rage!

MOre examples of 'poor skill levels'. These things are completely avoidable. There is a knack to controlling the ball in PES (1,2,3) and there are controls to help you do this. You have to wait until the player has the ball under control before running sometimes and holding L1 allows for tight control when you receive the ball. R1 is uspposed to allow the controlling of high balls in PES3 and in actual fact simply leaving the player static under the ball tends to bring the ball under control very well in most situations. R2 is used to move the player under a high ball to help win headers etc.

God TM, i have not ever experienced this 'un-avoidable corner goal' event. Either i'm lucky or you're just not very good at defending. Most corners are easily cleared in my experience and i'm sure that's no consolation but more time on the training ground and your nose in the manual might help.

These criticisms are slightly infuriating to me because they are player error. Some of the other comments i feel are justifiable, the balance between computer controlled events and your own input often on the wrong side of interactive, but overall, its a great football game.

For those of you without the patience or know-how to play the game properly, bad luck and practice makes perfect.

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God TM, i have not ever experienced this 'un-avoidable corner goal' event. Either i'm lucky or you're just not very good at defending.

You must be lucky.

Whilst I like this game a lot, there are many glaring little faults which drive the player to RAGE at times. That is one of them. Same with free kicks: why no manual keeper control for that? Irritating.

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God TM, i have not ever experienced this 'un-avoidable corner goal' event. Either i'm lucky or you're just not very good at defending.

You must be lucky.

Whilst I like this game a lot, there are many glaring little faults which drive the player to RAGE at times. That is one of them. Same with free kicks: why no manual keeper control for that? Irritating.

there is absolutely NOTHING you can do about a CPU player scoring from a corner or a free kick if it wants to (which is always in the last ten minutes of the game, by the way, and doesn't have to involve you actually fouling anyone or conceding a corner, scandalously!)

as for any player fuckups in PES3 being player error - NO.

blindly defending a game which is near-uncontrollable next to its predecessors is what infuriates me most.

ask anyone who comes to east anglia meets about me and ball control on WE6FE - zen-like.

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there is absolutely NOTHING you can do about a CPU player scoring from a corner or a free kick if it wants to (which is always in the last ten minutes of the game, by the way, and doesn't have to involve you actually fouling anyone or conceding a corner, scandalously!)

as for any player fuckups in PES3 being player error - NO.

blindly defending a game which is near-uncontrollable next to its predecessors is what infuriates me most.

AHem. i was not 'Blindly' defending the game thanks very much. I simply do NOT concede goals in the way you describe.

And i did NOT say that ANY player fuckups are acceptable, just that *some* of them are part of the game. You cannot by virtue of trying to control 11 players have total complete control. You need AI and sometimes it fucks up and thats where the conflict of being the 'manager/player' comes in. Some are realistic as reflecting the 'funny old game' and some are 'bugs'.

A bug is where the animation fails and the keeper in some situations fails to catch the ball and leaves it between his feet for a full second before picking it up. Players missing a high ball and a striker nipping in to score...well. . . its a moot point but they fact is in ALL my matches that's NEVER happened and if it did, it'd be becuase i failed to head it away, control it with R1 etc..

Another thing thats' never happened is a goal from a corner that i could say *honestly* i couldn't have prevented. I just can't see that i've simply been 'lucky' not to have seen this.

And the 'near incontrollable' comment? whats the point in arguing over it. Thats an opinion which neither of us can prove either way. I just think you're being way over the top with your invective. PES3 is a good game and needs to evovle and get better and i reckon some of the stuff in it is annoying. But not the things you're moaning about which i've found easily avoidable. Bad luck for you (i'm being kind) but there we go. go play WE6: FE. I bypassed PES2 becuase i didnt like it. not a problem really.

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I am still never playing the game again, because of other things I'd noticed:

- when going in for the sliding tackle, from a perfect angle, the ever-amazing AI decides to switch player so what was going to be a perfect front slide assault becomes a red card from the guy behind. Hmm, okay.

- heads up: my players (the Italian side) have got the amazing ability to miss absolutely every single high ball by knocking it with their chest, or when going for a pass nobbing it with their ankle. And I thought these highly trained proffessionals! Whoops, silly me!

Rage!

MOre examples of 'poor skill levels'. These things are completely avoidable. There is a knack to controlling the ball in PES (1,2,3) and there are controls to help you do this. You have to wait until the player has the ball under control before running sometimes and holding L1 allows for tight control when you receive the ball. R1 is uspposed to allow the controlling of high balls in PES3 and in actual fact simply leaving the player static under the ball tends to bring the ball under control very well in most situations. R2 is used to move the player under a high ball to help win headers etc.

That has absolutely nothing to do with what I said, at all. I didn't say anything about the direct control of a player WITH the ball, I was talking about those WITHOUT the ball. I know all about that L1/R1/R2 controlling malarkey, so don't patronise with that nonsense.

Why do my players HAVE to make mistakes, in CONSECUTIVE matches? Oh sure, players may have a bad day, but an altogether messy game career? That's just fucking well not on.

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real life tactics

let me just pick you up on this, Fry.

defenders in PES games have NO IDEA what they're defending; they are absolutely unaware of the goal they're meant to be protecting.

if an opponent player has rounded the keeper and is going to shoot at the empty goal, defenders make a bee-line for the player about to shoot (and not even to the ball, to the PLAYER) instead of protecting the goal-line like they blatantly should.

this kind of shitty logic persists in various situations in the entire game.

games of PES are hilarious to watch because the AI players haven't got the faintest clue what the fuck they're meant to be doing!

I disagree, I'm more than capable of marshalling my defence to sweep up loose balls, cover the net when necessary and restrict the oppositions options.

It's a good trick to make sure the player your controlling is the main stand off player. Yes, the AI does poor jobs at times so do that yourself and hold square to let the AI do the hassling bit even a monkey could do.

I'm not saying it's an excuse, but I'm saying there are ways around it.

And if your frustrated about the game cheating, don't play on anything above three stars. Above this and the game's frustrating, limited, and ultimately shite. Three stars, and it's top stuff.

I mostly only play on multiplayer, anyhow.

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Guest Penguin_Lad

I had a bash earlier, and once again stupid arse defending reared it's ugly head. I was controlling a midfielder, chasing an opposing player towards my goal in midfield.

Then, as if by magic, my centre back sort of walks out to shake hands with our right back. Is this normaly footballing behaviour? Because suddenly there was a bloody great hole in the middle of my defence. I hadn't done anything. I hadn't pressed square. WHAT WAS HE DOING.

So the guy runs into the area and bangs the ball into the net.

Great.

Yes you are right guys, it was all my fault. I'm crap.

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Yes you are right guys, it was all my fault. I'm crap.

. . .

do you really want to continue this never ending argument? Go play a version that you can win and leave the serious stuff to the masters.

:wub:

When this game goes online, its gonna be kick ass because then this all won't be meaningless posturing. We'll be able to SEE that I'm clearly the best.

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Guest Penguin_Lad
the commentry gets worse each year

Commentary? How about the following couple of phrases, which often appear...

"The teams are feeling each other out."

"Hmm, looks like you expect a close encounter Trevor!"

:rolleyes:

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Guest Penguin_Lad

Yes you are right guys, it was all my fault. I'm crap.

. . .

do you really want to continue this never ending argument? Go play a version that you can win and leave the serious stuff to the masters.

:rolleyes:

Haha :D Indeed.

You see I've been self depreciating in the final statement, hoping that this would be an end to it. Nice.

Regardless I usually win, but why not point out certain areas where the game is clearly unfair? Can you not see how this affects things?

Let's say we had a platformer, which occasionally saw you lose a life, and you could basically could do little about it. Wouldn't we all be up in arms then? Unfair death, frustrating.

So why not with a sports game hmmm?

Once again I apologise - this time for being able to pinpoint faults in a game.

People are being blinded by their fan boy love. Personally I still really, REALLY like PES3, I just feel they've not progressed how they could have. FIFA was criticised for this a while back, and rightly so. But woe betide anyone to have a go at PES!

;)

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Personally I still really, REALLY like PES3, I just feel they've not progressed how they could have. FIFA was criticised for this a while back, and rightly so.

:rolleyes:

Our point of dispute was simply the 'defense' issue. I pointed out several times that i thought many of the criticisms were entirely valid. Just so far, i've not encountered the same frustration you have.

When online it is, play you I shall and the truth will out.

and i'll win.

:D

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Guest Penguin_Lad
and i'll win.

:rolleyes:

Yes, probably because my defenders will go off for a cup of tea and a chat with a bird in the crowd.

So what other online games do you play.

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