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[Sigourney Beaver]

I did an endurance event at Three Sisters in Wigan this evening. Managed to get my times down from 56 second laps to a best of 52.99.

I think I'm losing all my time by braking for corners. The fast guys who were doing 50 and 51 second laps said they didn't brake, they just lifted off, turned and booted it and controlled the drift. I got somewhere near this a couple of times but let the back end slide too much and the revs disappear

In the run I did my best time I could feel the difference. The kart felt lively and it skipped nicely over the bumps.

I'm slowly getting there

[morcs]

The fast guys who were doing 50 and 51 second laps said they didn't brake, they just lifted off, turned and booted it and controlled the drift. I got somewhere near this a couple of times but let the back end slide too much and the revs disappear

Are you bigger than them? Weight is a major disadvantage in karts.

[linkster]

I did an endurance event at Three Sisters in Wigan this evening. Managed to get my times down from 56 second laps to a best of 52.99.

I think I'm losing all my time by braking for corners. The fast guys who were doing 50 and 51 second laps said they didn't brake, they just lifted off, turned and booted it and controlled the drift. I got somewhere near this a couple of times but let the back end slide too much and the revs disappear

In the run I did my best time I could feel the difference. The kart felt lively and it skipped nicely over the bumps.

I'm slowly getting there

This is where I get confused. I drift (and to be fair while not very fast I'm not slow either) but everyone says 'karting isn't about drifting'. Yet when I'm doing it right I know the revs aren't dropping too much.

[Uncle Mike]

The revs might not be dropping, but all the power isn't going through the wheels onto the road (by definition, really: if you're drifting, the wheels are spinning faster than your movement) and you're slowing down (or at least not accelerating). It's faster to find a better line that lets you put those revs out of the wheels without slipping, even if that means slowing a bit on the entrance to the corner.

[linkster]

Yeah I get the principles i guess but if you slow down you have to let the revs build again, if you drift and manage to maintain high revs then surely when you regain grip you can reach top speed quicker?

Going off at a tangent also, how come rally drivers favour drifting as a way of getting around a corner more quickly?

[Uncle Mike]

(Bear in mind here I'm no expert)

Rallying's different, as the surface isn't super-flat and grippy. So for them to slow down enough to maintain grip isn't efficient. So they slip and slide and keep momentum. F1 cars, in contrast, have super grip on super surfaces, so for them the most efficient method is to take perfect lines and slow down and speed up.

Karts are, I think, more closely aligned with that second method (although there's always going to be corners that it doesn't count for) because it's pretty easy to keep the karting going fast and maintain grip.

The times I've been karting and been successful, it's always been when I've kept drifting to a minimum and kept speed up by driving slightly further (ie taking big wide lines into corners so you don't need to slow down so much.)

[morcs]

Yeah rally and track differ because in the former tyre grip is the most restrictive limit, and in the latter it's engine power.

There are two major things with karts that don't apply to F1 cars which could favour drifting:

1. The aforementioned fixed rear axle, which makes the kart tend in a straight line when coasting
   
2. Lack of gears, drifting may allow you to keep the revs higher where the engine can produce more power (although afaik race karts usually have gears and manual clutches)
   

You can also keep the revs up in "fun" karts by holding the accelerator and brake at the same time, because of the centrifugal clutch. This wears the clutch and brakes out though so you'd probably get told off!

[SeanR]

Are you bigger than them? Weight is a major disadvantage in karts.

/waves

[morcs]

You can ask for ballast to make everyone even, but I've never done that for fear of looking like an ass. It is frustrating when you're chasing someone 20kg lighter than you and just can't quite get up close enough on the straights to challenge into the corner, had that last time I went

The disadvantage is reduced in the wet as more weight means more grip, but you're still worse off overall.

[Uncle Mike]

So what we're saying is: the trick to good karting is: being light, and knowing which corners to drift round (and how much), which to take without drift, then doing it properly?

[morcs]

I've just checked this with a mate of mine who races touring cars and used to race karts to a high level. He also works as a mechanic for a kart team most weekends.

He said with karts basically you don't want to drift under power at all, unless it's a very slippery indoor (painted concrete) surface, sometimes then a little bit of drifting can be better than slowing right down to a crawl.

Apparently though if it's a big speed change like a straight into a hairpin he will break loose the back end under braking (as you see in videos), meaning he can brake later and get the kart facing out of the corner as quickly as possible, but again once the power's down it's all forwards and not sideways.

Oh he also said last weekend they were finding that 1kg = 0.3 seconds a lap, and the effect would probably be more with slower karts (the ones they race are considerably quicker than the ones you hire).

[holly]

Oh he also said last weekend they were finding that 1kg = 0.3 seconds a lap, and the effect would probably be more with slower karts (the ones they race are considerably quicker than the ones you hire).

Wicked, so if linkster loses a kg and I lose a couple we'll both get into the top 50 at Mr Karting (and that means I'm slower than him, not that I weigh more, btw... )

[morcs]

Wicked, so if linkster loses a kg and I lose a couple we'll both get into the top 50 at Mr Karting (and that means I'm slower than him, not that I weigh more, btw... )

Probably a bit more, as I'm guessing the lap times he's talking about are a fair bit over 19 seconds! If you look at those leaderboards the kids are something like half a second quicker than the adults iirc.

[holly]

Probably a bit more, as I'm guessing the lap times he's talking about are a fair bit over 19 seconds! If you look at those leaderboards the kids are something like half a second quicker than the adults iirc.

Well, I needed to go on a bit of a diet anyway. How many kilos in a stone?

I know the kids times are embarassingly quick, I'm blaming that entirely on the weight issue....

Actually, I do spend way more time than I ought to going sideways at Mr Karting, once I get the whole braking earlier and coming out of the bends quicker my time ought to improve anyway. I was only about half a second out of the top 50, iirc.

[linkster]

I've just checked this with a mate of mine who races touring cars and used to race karts to a high level. He also works as a mechanic for a kart team most weekends.

He said with karts basically you don't want to drift under power at all, unless it's a very slippery indoor (painted concrete) surface, sometimes then a little bit of drifting can be better than slowing right down to a crawl.

Apparently though if it's a big speed change like a straight into a hairpin he will break loose the back end under braking (as you see in videos), meaning he can brake later and get the kart facing out of the corner as quickly as possible, but again once the power's down it's all forwards and not sideways.

Oh he also said last weekend they were finding that 1kg = 0.3 seconds a lap, and the effect would probably be more with slower karts (the ones they race are considerably quicker than the ones you hire).

What's the difference between that and drifting?

[morcs]

What's the difference between that and drifting?

It is a type of drifting, he would probably use the term oversteer ("lift-off" or "brake induced" oversteer), drifting tends to be used to mean keeping oversteer for as long as possible as a spectacle rather than for speed.

[Sigourney Beaver]

Are you bigger than them? Weight is a major disadvantage in karts.

I'm a tad over 13st now, thanks to Wii Fit. The quick guys (and girls) were all about 5 feet tall and must've weighed about 9st.

I was PRAYING for rain!

[linkster]

A proper session at Daytona today, absolutely brilliant. I was worried I wouldn't have the nerve to go flat out through some of the corners but once I found the grip it was just awesome. Had FANTASTIC duels with some really aggressive drivers and held them off for several laps, only lost out overall lap time by less than 0.8 of a second (to a guy with his own helmet...) and was third overall (holly fourth she kicked arse).

Also had a massive spin at about 50 avoiding a crash in front of me, went backwards into the tyre wall, now got bruised ribs but gagging to go again.

[Hass]

If you're interested in an outdoor karting series try http://www.advanceleisure.co.uk/

They do a 3 hour endurance series of around 10 races per season. You'll need 2 or 3 drivers per kart but they provide everything. The karts are direct drive (i.e. they stall when they stop) which makes for very interesting races. Basically, don't spin or you stall and have to get a bumper kart to get you moving again!

Great fun though.

[linkster]

Whilton Mill is a possibility, that's very near us, thanks for the tip! Some people at work are organising regular events (even talking about buying their own karts!) so sounds like I'll be getting more opportunities

[linkster]

Today was the first event for us, three teams from work. We came second and third out of 15 made up 0.6 of a second on my best lap from previous practice, not too much pack racing but what there was, was fun.

[BeeJay]

Interesting thread. I'm no expert karter but my ex workmate had his own kart and we used to talk for hours about the skills and strategies to drving a kart.

A couple of points that haven't been mentioned:

The method you choose to take a corner also depends heavily on the grip and bumpiness. Sometimes you're better off 'throwing' the kart into a corner to grab the grip. The grip might be terrible before a corner but superb in it. Even on really tight corners you don't want to be wasting your time trying to slow the kart down where there's no grip.

On the other hand one track I went on recently (Newport I think) has one corner which is incredibly bumpy and I just couldn't work out the best approach. The quickest seemed to be; brake hard and early, turn in hard, hold your lock, lean back and out and floor it while praying. sometimes you'd end up having to do all you could to stop yourself hitting the barrier on the outside and other times you'd power out of it perfectly.

On the whole I tend to encourage a little drift under braking and use this put myself in a better position to accelerate through the bend. Once I'm on the gas I'll absolutely kick myself if I feel even one touch of drift. Every single bit of power from that engine must be moving me forward.

Another thing is identifying where the grip is. Quite often the 'line' is way off the racing line as most people will not always use the racing line. Hence the grip is not where you'd want it to be so experiment. On some tracks this is the most important factor.

Another good one I see is people leaning into bends. It's natuaral but you really don't want to do this. You want to be putting as much weight on to the rear outside wheel as that's where the power is being applied. This is especially important for us fatties. Leaning into the bends reduces the grip on the tire that's doing the pushing and also increases your turning radius. Ideally, your inside rear wheel shouldn't be on the ground while cornering.

If anyone up for an event in the South West/South Wales/Birmingham area I'd be up for it.

[morcs]

Another good one I see is people leaning into bends. It's natuaral but you really don't want to do this.

Sweet I'd never thought of this! Another consequence of the fixed rear axle.

[BeeJay]

Sweet I'd never thought of this! Another consequence of the fixed rear axle.

Yep, I knocked easily a second or more off my lap times by doing this.

[linkster]

Interesting thread. I'm no expert karter but my ex workmate had his own kart and we used to talk for hours about the skills and strategies to drving a kart.

A couple of points that haven't been mentioned:

The method you choose to take a corner also depends heavily on the grip and bumpiness. Sometimes you're better off 'throwing' the kart into a corner to grab the grip. The grip might be terrible before a corner but superb in it. Even on really tight corners you don't want to be wasting your time trying to slow the kart down where there's no grip.

On the other hand one track I went on recently (Newport I think) has one corner which is incredibly bumpy and I just couldn't work out the best approach. The quickest seemed to be; brake hard and early, turn in hard, hold your lock, lean back and out and floor it while praying. sometimes you'd end up having to do all you could to stop yourself hitting the barrier on the outside and other times you'd power out of it perfectly.

On the whole I tend to encourage a little drift under braking and use this put myself in a better position to accelerate through the bend. Once I'm on the gas I'll absolutely kick myself if I feel even one touch of drift. Every single bit of power from that engine must be moving me forward.

Another thing is identifying where the grip is. Quite often the 'line' is way off the racing line as most people will not always use the racing line. Hence the grip is not where you'd want it to be so experiment. On some tracks this is the most important factor.

Another good one I see is people leaning into bends. It's natuaral but you really don't want to do this. You want to be putting as much weight on to the rear outside wheel as that's where the power is being applied. This is especially important for us fatties. Leaning into the bends reduces the grip on the tire that's doing the pushing and also increases your turning radius. Ideally, your inside rear wheel shouldn't be on the ground while cornering.

If anyone up for an event in the South West/South Wales/Birmingham area I'd be up for it.

Some well interesting stuff there, thanks! If you can get a team together (two or three) you should come the next time, we've penciled in September

[Sigourney Beaver]

Are you bigger than them? Weight is a major disadvantage in karts.

There might be another work's karting do in late october. By that time I hope to be pretty close to 11 stone, a whole 2 stone lighter than when I went last time. I'll update once it's happened.

[Sigourney Beaver]

There might be another work's karting do in late october. By that time I hope to be pretty close to 11 stone, a whole 2 stone lighter than when I went last time. I'll update once it's happened.

The karting event was tonight but it rained, so I couldn't get a true picture of how my weight reduction affected my times. However, I held the fastest lap until the dying minutes when someone pipped me by a couple of tenths. I had a fair few spins but overall I'm pleased with my increased understanding of how to handle a kart. The movement under braking is far more pronounced and if you slam on, you can get it snaking around and then turn in and boot it!

My team was last on the grid because we were all feeling our way in the practice session. I was doing 1:26s but got down to 1:11.99 in my second race stint. The start I got was amazing too. There was a long delay while the karts were getting lined up, so I had time to plan my start. There were so many karts that I was half way round the last corner like at Silverstone and I noticed the gap to the right was bigger than the gap to the left of the kart in front. The lights went green and I sailed up the route I had planned, going from last to third by the end of the first lap.

Driving round the outside of the corners helps loads too. It was almost like driving on a dry track. That's the first time I've driven a wet track and the grip on the outside line completely blew me away and let me get my quick times. Also, wrenching the wheel round is helpful coz once the front wheels stop sliding, they grip and turn instantly. And if you're heading for the outside line then the sliding will be minimal anyway.

Overall I'm pleased to have been up there with the semi-pros (or maybe even pros,) but I am still not that good when its dry. The extra grip and shorter braking distances still phases me a bit.

A thoroughly enjoyable evening

[linkster]

Which circuit did you go to?

I'm in the top 50 at mr karting now

[Sigourney Beaver]

Which circuit did you go to?

I'm in the top 50 at mr karting now

Three Sisters, Wigan.

It was insane with 19 teams of four drivers. The format is 30 minutes practice in which all drivers must get a turn. Then it's a 2 hour race with a fuel stop. It's easiest to do two 15 minute stints each. Normally I'm an average driver. Not fastest or slowest, probably because I drive the same way as I drive my car, never really thinking about any technique. I have been doing some reading though, and the wet weather helped me put it into practice because the karts slide so easily.

If we go again and it's dry I won't have any hesitation in pushing the limits.

[linkster]

My third solo race tonight, having come third and first previously, was an absolute blast. I qualified in eighth which I was surprised at but had experienced many yellow flags, still made for an interesting start, was in sixth by lap end then fourth one lap on. Hunted down this kart in front for anbout 10 laps with him getting very lucky breaks in traffic, then found myself leading after some smart accident avoidance and a bit of naughtiness. Held off a lot of pressure for several laps then blew it for myself, got pushed out twice but retained fourth overall (should have been at least third).

Quarter finals of the NKA nationals in a few weeks, can't wait.