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stephen129

KK first hand of a tournament

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First hand of £30 buy in tournament.

10,000 in chips each

Blinds 50/100

UTG calls

UTG + 1 raises to 300 (Guy called Adam, the only thing I know about him is that he does play a fair bit of poker and knows how to play)

UTG + 2 folds

I look down to find KK I raise to 1000

Folds round to Adam who calls 1000

Flop comes

JhJs7c

Adam checks

I raise 2000

Adam calls

Turn

Qd

Adam bets 500

I call

River

6d

Adam goes all in for another 6000 or so

QUESTION

Call or fold?

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You're not losing to much oustide of a random J,9, J,10 or A,J

Maybe he has, A,A but then that's just poker.

7,7 is also possible I guess but I wouldn't care if it was my first hand, I don't think I would be folding K,K on that type of board. There is every chance he knew you would be playing tight as it was the first hand and your call on the turn is terrible, flat calling here shows a lot of weakness regardless of his hand.

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Impossible to say, really, without any solid history on the player. His bizarre 500-chip turn lead is telling me to call the river, for some reason. It's like he was trying to do an OOP float or something equally crazy and had a brainfart when the action came back to him on the turn, before panic-shoving (my favourite move) the river. Your call there is pretty nasty, though - that's a rock-solid, 100%-of-the-time fold-or-raise situation.

My instinct is to call the river as played, but I dunno, really.

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Bet less on the flop for starters. Betting full pot here will end up in difficult situations because you engineer getting your entire stack in on the first hand of a tourney, something I hate, hate doing.

As played, I think I call the river. There's not a lot that makes sense if he's semi decent like you said. The most likely hand is AK where he picks up a gutshot on the turn and wants to see the river cheap.

Your full pot bet actually looks really weak, like you're trying to buy it - who bets full pot with AA or a Jack here? And just a flat call to such a small bet in the turn backs up that assumption. So given you've probably not got a Jack, he's thinking he can buy this pot with a massive bluff.

So I'd bite my lip and call. Then go on monster tilt when he flips over pocket sixes.

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As played, I think I call the river. There's not a lot that makes sense if he's semi decent like you said. The most likely hand is AK where he picks up a gutshot on the turn and wants to see the river cheap.

I can't see him having AK, I'm just not sure he'd call a 2000 chip bet (fifth of stack) on the flop with the overcards. Although it's obvious that Stephen doesn't have a jack after his large bet, the reraise on the flop is a strong indication that he has a pocket pair. He could be calling to bluff later but that's a ballsy move.

I can't see AA either. I think he'd three bet pre flop with AA 80% of the time. I've got a feeling he has the Jack, maybe raised with A-J? He could have made a loose raise and call pre-flop with Q-J and then made a tiny bet on the turn to try and milk the OP with the FH.

Stephen, did he show in the end? I want to know what he had now.

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My thinking is that he calls my flop bet kinda as a float with the intention of taking it away on a later street, however obviously in the back of my mind I am extremely wary he has AJ or maybe even KJ.

I had him on a range of AA KK QQ AK AQ AJ KJ TT.

I decide to flat call his 500 with the intention of flat calling the river and hoping he doesn't make it too expensive so I can minimise my loss if he does have trips.

I decided to call, I'll leave the thread open for a bit for anyone else who may have any thoughts on the hand.

I realise that by flat calling the 500 I am gaining no information whatsoever which probably wasn't a great idea.

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flat calling turn is losing tons of valie and i quite like the big bet on the flop as you get little credit and always get 1 street from pairs so might as well maximise it.

Whether to call river or not is completely villian dependant. The whole line makes no sense from anyone remotely.competent. The more.competent you think they are the more likely i would be to fold river given how.you played it.

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Bet less on the flop for starters. Betting full pot here will end up in difficult situations because you engineer getting your entire stack in on the first hand of a tourney, something I hate, hate doing.

As played, I think I call the river. There's not a lot that makes sense if he's semi decent like you said. The most likely hand is AK where he picks up a gutshot on the turn and wants to see the river cheap.

Your full pot bet actually looks really weak, like you're trying to buy it - who bets full pot with AA or a Jack here? And just a flat call to such a small bet in the turn backs up that assumption. So given you've probably not got a Jack, he's thinking he can buy this pot with a massive bluff.

So I'd bite my lip and call. Then go on monster tilt when he flips over pocket sixes.

This man talks sense. I definitely agree about the flop bet too, I should have mentioned that. Especially since I'm one of those guys that veers way towards the "T" in TAG in MTTs until the introduction of antes start approaching. But boy does it make the first few hours (and far longer in live ones) of big MTTs boring!

But yeah, if I called and he flipped over pocket sixes there I'd be off the roulette tables to tilt away every penny I have.

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I'd probably fold, might feel it and call but i doubt it. Would put them on a JJ, 77 or 66, or possibly an AJ type of hand, an experienced player could easily use the 500 bet to induce a raise, when none comes they realise your in call mode and go for the max on the river. Or ofcourse they could use the 500 to test you and think your too weak when you don't raise, it is a tricky one. At this stage in the tournament i would also be happy to take my chances with the 6k stack and my skill to get them back.

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I can't see him having AK, I'm just not sure he'd call a 2000 chip bet (fifth of stack) on the flop with the overcards. Although it's obvious that Stephen doesn't have a jack after his large bet, the reraise on the flop is a strong indication that he has a pocket pair. He could be calling to bluff later but that's a ballsy move.

If Villain has AK and is certain Stephen doesn't have a Jack, why wouldn't he call? Stephen's range also includes AK, AQ and depending on Stephen's play, all manner of random semi-bluff three-bet hands like 98s.

If I was in villain's position, I would call knowing that I can get a fold from TT and 99 and also AK. I could well have the best hand. I'd be very confident of coming out of this hand a winner.

I think the main thing to take away from this hand is not the ability to hand read your villain, but how your actions can lead you into a difficult decision on later streets. If you'd only put 2000 chips into the pot by the river, it all of a sudden becomes a lot harder for him to shove 8000 and a lot easier for you to fold if he does.

Stephen, have you read much on levels?

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He had AJ.

Some interesting points made in this thread though.

Looking back on it, it seems really obvious he had me beat. Calling 10bb pre flop, calling a pot bet on the river and the really weird 500 bet.

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The point made earlier is the most relevant, wether you made the right call this time or not isn't so important, don't get yourself into this spot in the first place. At this stage a bit of pot control, even with KK, is the best way to go. Later on in the tournament, the AJ winning against your KK will be worth the risk because of the blind sizes and your position in the tournament ect, but at this stage i would definatly not bet the flop, and i would not re-raise in the hand once the JJ comes down. It may seem too tight, but i would want to get my opponent bluffing/keep the pot small against a hand beating me, how often is an opponent going to want to call of all of those chips with a hand losing to KK, atleast if he's betting all the way you have a bigger chance of a big river bet being a bluff.

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The point made earlier is the most relevant, wether you made the right call this time or not isn't so important, don't get yourself into this spot in the first place. At this stage a bit of pot control, even with KK, is the best way to go. Later on in the tournament, the AJ winning against your KK will be worth the risk because of the blind sizes and your position in the tournament ect, but at this stage i would definatly not bet the flop, and i would not re-raise in the hand once the JJ comes down. It may seem too tight, but i would want to get my opponent bluffing/keep the pot small against a hand beating me, how often is an opponent going to want to call of all of those chips with a hand losing to KK, atleast if he's betting all the way you have a bigger chance of a big river bet being a bluff.

Not to pick on you but a couple of people have posted something similar to this including the experienced MTT/SNG guys on the forum.

stephen129 didnt answer what exactly this tournament was, but I think it is a fair assumption to say it is full of bad players. This guy for example called a 3bet out of position on the first level for 10% of his stack with AJ. Do you really want to be playing pot control with the second best hand in poker vs players like this? It doesnt matter the level, you are going to get most of your value in a game like this through betting your big hands big.

Once you have put in 10% of your stack pre you simply shouldnt be looking for ways to get away from a hand like KK on this type of board. There are just way too many hands you can get value from to even think about stopping betting at any point.

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Weirdly I once found myself in an identical situation at the start of a tournament. I had a pair of queens, bet fairly high but not amazingly so and a few people called. The flop came with (say) 2, 5, 9 and one person bet at it, everyone folded and I called. He bet again at the river but not too significantly, a 10 or something, and I called again. And then he went all in on the last card, something like a 4. It was a very cheap tournament and I figured I was either in a great position if I won or I'd not lost much. I was pretty much certain I was up against two pairs, or AA/KK but I decided to call it despite such logical thoughts. Turned out he had...a pair of queens.

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Not to pick on you but a couple of people have posted something similar to this including the experienced MTT/SNG guys on the forum.

stephen129 didnt answer what exactly this tournament was, but I think it is a fair assumption to say it is full of bad players. This guy for example called a 3bet out of position on the first level for 10% of his stack with AJ. Do you really want to be playing pot control with the second best hand in poker vs players like this? It doesnt matter the level, you are going to get most of your value in a game like this through betting your big hands big.

Once you have put in 10% of your stack pre you simply shouldnt be looking for ways to get away from a hand like KK on this type of board. There are just way too many hands you can get value from to even think about stopping betting at any point.

I wouldn't be looking to get away from it, but an opponent isn't going to chuck it all in if the pot is only 3 or 4k on the river, and if he does it's even easier to get away from. My MO from this hand after the flop is to still be in the tournament next hand, or alteast give myself a chance, the fact that i don't play cash may affect my thinking, but early levels for me are often about survival or a fair amount of extra chips, not saying i'm perfect as i would sometimes lose value, and ofcourse i would have called a shove pre flop. Sometimes you just have lay down when you see a really rubish board, especially in a £30 tourney, if the players are as bad as expected, there will probably be a lot better spots for plenty of chips than calling this river.

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...but at this stage i would definatly not bet the flop...

Checking back the flop is a very under-valued play here and one that most players don't even consider. On this board you're in what's called a 'way ahead, way behind' situation. And it really disguises your hand, where your much more more likely to get called on two streets by a hand like 99.

I wouldn't say I'm always checking back here, for example when I play against Poet, he knows I can be bluffy, so he would expect me to bet 98s here 100%, so I have to bet KK as well. But against randoms on the first hand of a tourney, it's a really good way of getting solid value and not getting stacks in when your not 100% about your hand.

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Checking back the flop is a very under-valued play here and one that most players don't even consider. On this board you're in what's called a 'way ahead, way behind' situation. And it really disguises your hand, where your much more more likely to get called on two streets by a hand like 99.

I wouldn't say I'm always checking back here, for example when I play against Poet, he knows I can be bluffy, so he would expect me to bet 98s here 100%, so I have to bet KK as well. But against randoms on the first hand of a tourney, it's a really good way of getting solid value and not getting stacks in when your not 100% about your hand.

Really?? Really?

:eyebrows:

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Very late to the topic. I would definitely agree that 2000 bet on the flop is way too much. I'd bet half of that at most. It might make weaker hands call and also makes a fold easier it out drawn later. Pot sized flop bets are something I almost never do. They actively create horrible all in or fold situations when you don't want them.

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