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Gender Diversity / Politics in games (was Tropes Vs. Women)

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How the fuck did I miss this until now? God, you think a thread has descended into a bleeding heart circle jerk, and then suddenly it turns into gold.

This is not "gold", this is awful. Smitty starts out with some fairly even-handed critique of the videos, and as soon as people start disputing the viewpoints, it becomes "I'm logically right" and quickly devolves into aggression. We've seen this before, this is not a question where Rllmuk is the solution.

Edit: And I don't mean that Smitty is awful, but this current thread of discussion is fucking toxic and I hope geekette and Smitty carry on the conversation in private. If they wish.

Edited for accuracy.

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This is not "gold", this is awful. Smitty starts out with some fairly even-handed critique of the videos, and as soon as people start disputing the viewpoints, it becomes "I'm logically right" and quickly devolves into abusive nonsense to good people who attempt to help. We've seen this before, this is not a question where Rllmuk is the solution.

Edit: And I don't mean that Smitty is awful, but this current thread of discussion is fucking toxic and I hope geekette and Smitty carry on the conversation in private.

What are you talking about? Are you saying I've argued anything even vaguely resembling "I'm logically right"? What quick abuse? Who are the" good people who are trying to help"?

As for continuing it in "private" - can anything be considered private with a person who brings up shit from two years ago to score points because they're annoyed?

But I suppose everyone most know of her saintly deeds. It is by their miracles that saints are known, right?

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Here's a tip for you - don't ever accept any generosity from Geekette (real name, profession and various embarrassing details withheld) because believe me you'll never hear the end of it - in person and eventually in public. First from her mates (super stu) and then from her.

I don't think she got the memo about how act an of kindness doesn't make a person beholden to you, that acts of charity should not be paraded and that gifts aren't something you can later start acting like there was a bill to pay.

I love that she went back to her post to edit in "vegetarian household". It's not enough that she bought me some steak, which it was it said pre edit. It's important to her that you know the full extent of her selflessness and my wretched villainy.

Here's another top tip: if you want to have a constructive debate come into a thread and immedietly call the proceeding discussion "disgusting"* and proceed to smear everyone who you disagree with.

*without naming names, of course, you're a coward after all. Just keep it vague and passive aggressive.

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The least you could do is give her her laptop back you monster. She probably needs it to make crispin his website

I don't have her fucking laptop. I gave it back to her when I left hers. I don't have something that she gave of me entirely of her own violation.

It's weird how a gift (that turned out to be temporary) can be used as a weapon isn't it? Even a thin and light Air can be used to batter someone around the head with two years later.

Here's a tip for you - just bite your fucking tongue when someone has gone so out of their way to help you. You ungrateful cunt.

Oh, fuck off Adam.

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Smitters, If Geekette was so keen to bang on about what a saint she is why has she waited two years to mention all this stuff?

Maybe she's just upset by the way you treated her in this thread and was hoping that by confronting you with details of her generosity, you would see that you were off the mark by accusing her of disliking you because you have a cock, or whatever.

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Disliking me because I disagreed with her more like.

What do the events of two years ago have we to do with how we talk to each other now? Nothing, absolutely nothing.

I'm pretty upset to have my views described as "disgusting" and then it have suggested repeatedly that I'm thick as shit/ignorant/part of the problem (which is essentially code for sexist) and lastly my criticism is partly based on the sex of the person I'm arguing with.

I'm pretty fucking 'upset' about that. Should I start shitting out irrelevant private details?

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She's gone back to edit in "delicate flower" now. She's really marshaling the big guns.

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I didn't think it was possible for a thread about sexism and misogyny to get more depressing.

I blame Ubisoft.

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geekette I feel sad can I have a red 3DS please

Chill out dude, she's a low level philanthropic investor, not a millionaire.

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You brought up something completely irrelevant from two years ago to use as ammunition because I annoyed you.

Whether or not your chum also did the same thing is neither here nor there. You know it has nothing to do with anything.

The way you've talked to and about me is the basis of my reaction.

It's "clearly" been difficult for me to not talk about you? What the fuck is that drivel based on?

The fact that I'm asking why I should keep anything you've said to me private now?

The "mire"? Do you realise how ridiculous you sound? The "mire" caused by your offensive insinuations about my views and furthermore completely unnecessary throwing around of personal details likes so much confetti?

And stu obviously didn't need to apologise to you given that you're quite prepared to make hay out of it anyway. It's incredible to watch you attempting to have your cake and eat it whilst trying to wriggle your way out of this.

What fucking "onslaught"? There was no such thing. Where have I" repeatedly insinuated " your views on me? What threads? What 'unacceptable terminology'?

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Anyway I'm going to try and get back on the original topic.

So recently I talked to "friend" about a certain post I made when the Elliot Rodger thing happened. This post to be exact:

Got to be honest the more I read about this the more down I feel about my own life. I'm a bit like him in a lot of ways, doing a degree, reasonably well off (not exactly rich but I have nice things that I should be grateful for), in my 20s, autistic, virgin, never been in a relationship. It's scary how much I feel like a total outcast compared to not just people who get into relationships but also people like him who are misogynistic or are "nice guys" or have entitlement issues or whatever.

It feels fucking weird because it can sometimes feel like I'm doing something wrong, don't get me wrong I can understand the appeal in relationships but at the same time I feel like people think I'm weird because my social priority is just making friends with people, meeting people who share hobbies, shooting the shit (talking endlessly about anything), etc. I've told people before that I'm not really interested in having a girlfriend and the fact I've never been in any kind of relationship doesn't bother me until people take issue with it. Whenever I think about the big picture I feel like the most out of place person in the world. Sometimes it feels good because it makes it easy for me to focus on certain work and personal goals but at other times when I have nothing I'm really working towards it eats at me a little bit. It's still weird though that both groups of people think I'm the one who has something wrong with them.

Maybe I need to reassess or something because I'm making myself confused again. I'm probably posting this in the wrong thread. Why I'm confessing all this here I don't know, probably because off topic viewing is members only.

http://www.rllmukforum.com/index.php?/topic/279123-elliot-rodgers-retribution/page-3#entry9878818

Now this is a "friend" who often has to deal with incidents like domestic violence disputes and on occasion rape. What I found interesting what when I spoke to him about a lot of the misogynistic viewpoints and attitudes he told me he believed that many people with a marginally negative view of women (i.e. Nice Guys, Neck Beards, people who blame women for being virgins etc) were suffering from a form of mental illness.

Now that is interesting to me because that had never once crossed my mind, it's always been easy to just assume that are just arseholes and move on but after seeing people on the internet speak in support of Rodger or try and justify what he did because they see it as some kind of attack on the people who "friendzone" nice guys it does start to cross my mind that there might be more to it than these people being cunts and that they may actually have something wrong with them mentally.

Now I know this isn't exactly related to video games but considering that this thread has become about more than that I think it can fit in here. To link it with video games, say this extreme hatred of women these types have is an mental illness or psychological illness or something like that, I don't think there are video games that risk contributing to the problem either directly (i.e. someone plays a game that gives them false expectations of how relationships work) or indirectly (they go on chat and end up talking with other people who reinforce their negative viewpoints).

Now I'm not one of those "video games rot the brain" believers, in fact I fully support the idea that video games can help treat conditions such as PTSD and even be educational for young children but a lot of games, such as the ones this topic is centered around may not actually do anything to help these people who are suffering from this social skill related mental or psychological illness (if extreme misogyny can indeed be the indicator of some kind of dysfunction or illness).

Also Smitty I think you need to cool off for a bit because the more you post the bigger hole you are digging.

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So, back on topic, has anyone discussed cosplay yet in the thread? I haven't read the whole thread, so apologies if so.

Some recent comments in the OT cosplay thread made me think a bit about that. Is modern day female videogame cosplay A Bad ThingTM? Does it aid the normalisation of sexism in videogame societies? What do you make of the women who partake? What do you think of the trend for women to be dressing up as male videogame characters?

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The cosplay thread makes me tired of breasts and cleavage.

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I think that if you're not that fussed about having a relationship, you're not the only one, there are plenty of people with all kinds of levels of attraction, sexual or romantic, to all kinds of people. It's just another part of the whole heteronormative narrative thing we've got going on in all forms of our media that tells you you must want to have a beautiful wife, and makes you question yourself, when you shouldn't. Edit to add: If you're interested, look up about asexuality, graysexuality, and aromantic, and etc etc. There's a million labels and you might not even fit any of them, but there's more moulds than you see on TV.

Re: cosplay, I think women should be able to dress as they want, on their own terms, whatever that may mean. They shouldn't be policed, no one else should be saying what's right or what's wrong, and basically people shouldn't give a fuck.


Related to both those posts is an article, I'll see if I can find it, but the main quote was something along these lines "it's no longer damned if you do, damned if you don't, it's dead if you do, dead if you don't" - after the Isla Vista killings for NOT sleeping with someone, and at the same time a young woman who had consensually been in a porn video committed suicide because she couldn't handle the backlash of hatred at her public display of enjoying sex.

Basically, everyone is constantly judging if a woman is the exact right amount of "slutty" or "pure" and it's a fucking joke. Just let them be whatever they want to be and stop weighing it all up because it's not your place to judge.

edit again: That sounds like I'm cross. I'm not cross at you for bringing it up (though my opinion still stands), thinking about ER makes me cross

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So anyway, I was playing Watch Dogs this weekend. That scene with the auctioned women is kind of the case in point – it’s using naked, victimised women as a plot device to make you hate the bad guys more. It’s playing off the women’s helplessness and vulnerability to sexual violence in order to empower Coatman and the player to save the girls and kill the baddies – taking pungent real-life themes and using them in a crass, shallow way to give you an excuse to kill people and to show naked women. The women in the game aren’t treated like real people, which is ironic because that’s what the bad guys are apparently being blamed for.

It made me think about another Ubisoft game from about (gasp) ten years ago, Prince of Persia: Sands of Time, which teamed a strong-jawed hero with a scantily-clad female sidekick and love interest who he frequently has to rescue from her own ineptitude, but somehow doesn’t feel sexist or exploitative. For one thing, the saucy clothes work in the context of the game’s setting – a sensual, Arabian Nights adventure, with a matinee idol hero. For another (and almost uniquely), the Prince’s clothes get gradually torn off as the game progresses – every so often, there’s a bit where the camera focuses on him taking his sleeves off until he’s bare-chested by the end of the game. IIRC, there’s no equivalent bit for Farah, so the game seems to objectify his physique rather than hers.

Compare that to Watch Dogs. I’m not saying that Aidan should slip into one of those half-thongs and oil himself up, but it is interesting that he’s almost invariably wearing at least three layers of terrible knitwear, gloves, a hat, and occasionally a mask, whereas the Poundstretcher Lisbeth Salander, his sidekick, looks like she’s off to a rock gig in early June, with a short-sleeved leather jacket and an incredibly low-cut top. The very fact that she’s a hacker AND female is notable enough to be treated as a twist in itself, with a “But…. you’re a woman?!” cutscene early on that feels like someone shook a Roger Moore-era Bond film, and this bit fell out. She sits there like Sigourney Weaver in Galaxy Quest, giving you exposition over the phone, but never really driving the plot in any pro-active way.

It feels like such a regressive step; Sands of Time was a bit of an outlier, but even Assassins Creed had better female characters than this. I’d be interested to know the story behind the game, and why it’s got this weak, derivative, lazy feel about its characters.

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I think that if you're not that fussed about having a relationship, you're not the only one, there are plenty of people with all kinds of levels of attraction, sexual or romantic, to all kinds of people. It's just another part of the whole heteronormative narrative thing we've got going on in all forms of our media that tells you you must want to have a beautiful wife, and makes you question yourself, when you shouldn't. Edit to add: If you're interested, look up about asexuality, graysexuality, and aromantic, and etc etc. There's a million labels and you might not even fit any of them, but there's more moulds than you see on TV.

Re: cosplay, I think women should be able to dress as they want, on their own terms, whatever that may mean. They shouldn't be policed, no one else should be saying what's right or what's wrong, and basically people shouldn't give a fuck.

Related to both those posts is an article, I'll see if I can find it, but the main quote was something along these lines "it's no longer damned if you do, damned if you don't, it's dead if you do, dead if you don't" - after the Isla Vista killings for NOT sleeping with someone, and at the same time a young woman who had consensually been in a porn video committed suicide because she couldn't handle the backlash of hatred at her public display of enjoying sex.

Basically, everyone is constantly judging if a woman is the exact right amount of "slutty" or "pure" and it's a fucking joke. Just let them be whatever they want to be and stop weighing it all up because it's not your place to judge.

edit again: That sounds like I'm cross. I'm not cross at you for bringing it up (though my opinion still stands), thinking about ER makes me cross

Regarding the bolded bit, I agree, but at the same time we're still quite a way from there (see Scousers "chubby funster" comment in the cosplay thread, among others). There's a portion of cosplay that is overtly sexualised (the roughly gazillion sexy Thelmas that have popped up, anyone?) but if that's their choice, it shouldnt be something that they are judged negatively for, and certainly people need to stop assuming that people who do the more sexual cosplays are either sluts, doing it because they like nerds lusting after them or other shit like that. And even if they are, so what? Also, people need to stop assuming that attractive people dressing up are doing it just to try and be "nerdy cool" or some shit. Tanya Tate, who is also a porn star, does plenty of cosplay, but is also genuinely into comics.

There is an MMO I occasionally play (not WoW, I might add) where on the forums, there was a discussion about the lack of community in the end game raiding scene, and that most of the big raiding guilds seemed to hate each other. This led to people proudly declaring that "in the spirit of competition", they would quite happily be a dick to players that werent on the same team. How is this relevant? Well, one of the most prominent players decided to "prove" it by posting a screenshot of them harassing/griefing someone streaming the game. I'm still not sure what it was supposed to show, as it was someone trying the game, not a rival guild, but I think it was to show the "we dont give a fuck about others" attitude they claimed big guilds had. The streamer in the screenshot was a woman. And to be fair, the screenshot, while showing them being dicks, didnt indicate they were sexist dicks. Until someone else, who watched the stream, posted a screenshot of the player harassing her by telling her to "show tits or we'll carry on till you quit" (or something similar). The woman herself also did some modelling, and also had a donate button (something every streamer has pretty much now) as well as a couple of her modelling pics on her homepage. According to the griefers, this meant that she was fair game for such comments, and that to show such pictures (which were tasteful, and she wasnt dressed revealingly in the stream either) meant that she was actively encouraging sexual comments and that she deserved them. A few of his guild mates backed him up (who also happened to be part of it in game), so several people, myself included, questioned if the guildmaster really wanted this to be seen as linked with his guild, which ended up with him being unceremoniously booted out of the top US guild.

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I think the issue in the cosplay thread was that it's possible to enjoy looking at attractive females without sounding like Danny Dyer leafing through the latest issue of Nuts.

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It's actually shocking to think back to how, just a few years ago, it seemed like it was perfectly acceptable to greet any female who ventured onto a gaming or similar male-interest forum with "Tits or GTFO".

I mean - it seemed acceptable to me at the time. Funny even. I always thought "Hah she will know we are all just having a laugh". Pretty sure it happened on here more than once, and I probably lolled at the time. I'm horrified about that now.

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Regarding the bolded bit, I agree, but at the same time we're still quite a way from there (see Scousers "chubby funster" comment in the cosplay thread, among others). There's a portion of cosplay that is overtly sexualised (the roughly gazillion sexy Thelmas that have popped up, anyone?) but if that's their choice, it shouldnt be something that they are judged negatively for, and certainly people need to stop assuming that people who do the more sexual cosplays are either sluts, doing it because they like nerds lusting after them or other shit like that. And even if they are, so what? Also, people need to stop assuming that attractive people dressing up are doing it just to try and be "nerdy cool" or some shit. Tanya Tate, who is also a porn star, does plenty of cosplay, but is also genuinely into comics.

Yeah, that's the stuff that made me bring it up here. Although I strongly disagreed with those comments, to be fair I don't think anyone was sitting there thinking "I'm making a misogynist comment" or was trying to be a prick or anything - I imagine the behaviour is learned and automatic. When a woman puts herself out there on display, some people think it means it is OK to say what you want. It reminds me a bit of when people comment on a girl's tits, then say "Well, she wouldn't mind because she's wearing that top."

After this stuff was raised in the cosplay thread we had a white knight picture posted, someone saying something like "you wouldn't say that if it was a bloke's weight we were commenting on" and another post suggesting that it was silly to point it out the misogyny because the whole notion of skimpy cosplay is misogynistic in itself.

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Well that just makes that thread sound like a mess. I don't think it changes the fact that there are two simple rules that would make it all better

1) don't be an dick*
2) if someone tells someone not to be a dick, don't be a dick to them

The rest is just silencing and misdirection to stop anyone having to come to terms with the fact that they might have been an ass. I don't think a detailed analysis of which women should be allowed to wear what is going to help - it's all policing of a woman's body and fuuuuck that shit.

Or, as someone put it on faecbok:

10329214_859749207386144_226461757328206


*Gendered insult. Sorry, couldn't think of an alternative that sums it up so precisely.

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That sounds wonderful.

Until you think it through.

I wouldn't go about saying that, I mean thinking anything in this thread through hasn't exactly been your strong point.

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meow.wav

Let's be honest here, that Facebook Cosplay 'everybody is beautiful' picture was terrible and would make you unfriend anybody who posted it on your wall. Of course people should do and wear whatever they like without being subjected to hate posts and the like, but please let's not pretend that fat people wearing Princess Leia outfits 'look AMAZING doing it'.

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