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Gender Diversity / Politics in games (was Tropes Vs. Women)


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Well, yeah, because they would be different situations.

Not really. Portraying homosexuality as normal is considered 'damaging' or 'dangerous to kids' in certain circles as much - or even more - as portraying senseless violence in others. It just depends on your own moral outlook. The problem being that Valve decides to be the arbiter of taste here instead of what it is supposed to do; be a distribution network of games.

Of course there's a line eventually somewhere when you get into truly dodgy territory with the stuff depicted - although I think anything goes pretty much as long as its within the law - but I find it a bit worrying that this case is so easily dismissed just because some people here don't like the theme of the game (based on nothing more than a short trailer and some quotes from the developer) hence it's fine to severely limit its availability (which is the case with Steam being the major distributor of PC downloadables).

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Yeah, every retailer can decide what to stock or not, even without having to defend or explain themselves ... but the gatekeeper aspect comes in when it's close to a monopoly, exclusively controlling the content the public has access to. Fortunately there are still plenty of alternatives, but Steam is rather fucking big and influential. I'd still prefer some kind of 'content neutrality' though. What if GOG, Amazon and Greenman follow suit? And Paypal decides not to cooperate with self-publishing? It will effectively be banned without a single judge having looked at it (although that might be for the better in this case :P )

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Rowan, they sell Postal.

Yeah, I assumed we were all aware of that factor from the stuff above. But they're not obliged by nature or law to be consistent.

I just enjoy playing devil's advocate, really. It's the only fun I have since Last of the Summer Wine ended. I can see why Valve might be wary of publishing Hatred. Whether they're right is another debate, but I don't think it's hard to imagine why they don't want to be associated with it. I don't really care, if I'm honest, though I suspect it'd be best for everyone if it was just released and then ignored. Of course Valve don't have to be a part of its release, just like I don't have to play it. Maybe it's equivalent to Target removing GTA, which I seem to recall I was against at the time, but if pressed I'll just fall back on the consistency defence up there in paragraph one.

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I'd like to think that if a situation like that arose, the pendulum would swing the other way and one publisher or another would stake out a niche selling the trashy gaming nasties that the mainstream outlets won't touch. Probably quite profitably. Heck, didn't Rockstar get going because it was one of the few publishers willing to release things like State of Emergency?

It is a concern though. It's all well and good saying "it's just one publisher" but if they all exercise their individual freedom we're collectively up the creek.

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I'd like to think that if a situation like that arose, the pendulum would swing the other way and one publisher or another would stake out a niche selling the trashy gaming nasties that the mainstream outlets won't touch.

Yeah, that's a good point. As long as there's demand, there'll always be somebody willing to sell it on.
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They could publish it themselves online and receive 100% of the revenue instead of 70% (the remainder going to Steam).

13,000 at $10

$130,000

70% $91,000

30% $39,000

big difference. $39,000 is about median full time income in the USA, iow one person's salary for a year.

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This discussion is dumb - this thread started because there are a bunch of easily fixable barriers to women in the game industry, and as shown by stuff like smartphones, there's a huge potential audience in the same age demographic that's underserved. That's good and a conversation that's worth having.

Now it's mutated into talking about stuff that's not exclusionary and is generally a weird moral crusade about videogames, and trying to exclude stuff that people find objectionable while stuff they like, which is daft and a futile task because it's one and the same, and if you really cared about stuff being actually mature in the well-done sense and not teenage edgy sense you sure as shit wouldn't be playing videogames in the first place, because it's all juvenile bullshit, even the "worthy" ones, and to quote Katamari Damacy:

T5BTqJa.png

Stop circlejerking over how terrible you think GTA is unless it's actually related to the topic title, because we all know you're gonna buy all of them and follow all of the pre-release hype bullshit anyway.

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Now it's mutated into talking about stuff that's not exclusionary and is generally a weird moral crusade about videogames, and trying to exclude stuff that people find objectionable while stuff they like, which is daft and a futile task because it's one and the same,

That's really my core concern with some of the discussion here, some of the ideas we're hearing. Some of has the distinct whiff of a new generation of Mary Whitehouses to it and I really, really don't like where that road leads.

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A few people just ignored that they're refusing to publish it, which is different from just selling Postal.

What's far more likely is that people simply didn't see that detail or understand the disctinction, rather than them ignoring it. That's the case for me, for instance.

You are however correct that it's important distinction to note. I wonder if Valve *will* sell the game. It seems unlikely to me though if they've taken this stance on this and also considering that Valve let disastrously bad shite onto Greenlight constantly.

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That's really my core concern with some of the discussion here, some of the ideas we're hearing. Some of has the distinct whiff of a new generation of Mary Whitehouses to it and I really, really don't like where that road leads.

However, this line of reasoning has a whiff of https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/slippery-slope and I really don't like where that leads.

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However, this line of reasoning has a whiff of https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/slippery-slope and I really don't like where that leads.

Right. Can I ask, seriously and earnestly, if there is any valid concern or criticism that anyone can make in this area? There is always some perfect, air-tight rejoinder to shut you down*

Look, some of the people involved in these discussions are doing the same sort of things, displaying the same sort of reasoning, that many of those same people (and all of us) criticise and attack when they just happen to come from another group of people who's political/social views differ from ours.

I am suspicious of it from any source. I can smell bullshit at a 100 paces and, yes, sometimes this side. 'our' side comes out with bullshit and specious reasoning. Even dangerous reasoning.

*although I suppose I should be extremely grateful I haven't been accused of misogyny, literally hating women, within seconds

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considering that Valve let disastrously bad shite onto Greenlight constantly.

However, there's a big difference between "disastrously bad game" that annoys the gamers who buy it and "disastrously bad mainstream PR" that would be pretty likely to come from Hatred. From a business perspective, allowing Hatred onto the store is clearly leaving Valve at genuine risk of getting on the front page of the New York Times for all the wrong reasons.

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However, there's a big difference between "disastrously bad game" that annoys the gamers who buy it and "disastrously bad mainstream PR" that would be pretty likely to come from Hatred.

Right but that wasn't my point with what you've quoted. I was trying to say that it seems likely to me that Valve have decided not to publish Hatred because of PR/moral reasons rather than quality reasons and that if we turn to the seperate question of them *selling* Hatred than I also can't see them doing that if there outstanding reason for not publishing it was PR/moral.

I mean, they couldn't be any doubt that they'd had declined selling it for quality reasons because, again, Valve allow staggeringly bad stuff quality-wise to be sold through Steam.

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I wish this was about censorship and banning and free speech because fascists having their speech suppressed is actually very cool and good.

Who's a fascist? I know you've got very exacting standards about who is a unacceptable human being and who isn't - do people who have concerns about artistic expression being squeezed by 'worthy' people on the side of the political spectrum we happen to like find themselves on your list of 'facists'?

As a sidenote your stance on free speech issues is short-sighted and one day you might find it tested when we're the ones being suppressed.

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Who's a fascist? I know you've got very exacting standards about who is a unacceptable human being and who isn't - do people who have concerns about artistic expression being squeezed by 'worthy' people on the side of the political spectrum we happen to like find themselves on your list of 'facists'?

As a sidenote your stance on free speech issues is short-sighted and one day you might find it tested when we're the ones being suppressed.

No, those people come under 'liberals' who frequently find themselves being the enablers of actual fascists through application of their high ideals. Complete unrestricted freedom of speech is what allows fascists to organise and create support networks and cause direct harm to others. Hatred is obviously not on the same level as something like the Pegido march that's happening in Germany right now but it's being made by people whose politics are vile as an extension of those politics and is in fact being latched on to by gamergate types who are demanding that the developers add on levels where you can mow down 'SJWs' in addition to immigrants and whatever else. I have no truck whatsoever with people wanting to protect this game somehow out of some modified Niemoller argument; it's the complete wrong tree to bark up.

Oh, and with relation to my views on free speech in general, I'll gladly take some hypothetical future comeuppance over white supremacists and racists being allowed to spread their ideals and cause the deaths of innocents right now, which is the verifiable consequence of allowing fascists to organise under the umbrella of free speech.

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He's referring to the developer of the game reportedly having links to Polish Neo Nazi groups. I haven't looked into it myself.

Oh, I see. I got the completely wrong end of the stick then. I thought he was making some reference to my point about Mary Whitehouses and wildly spinning it into something else, which has happened many times in this thread.

So excuse me Rudi. I won't cry any tears over these guys losing sales either. Then again on the other side as per Nap and Alex W on the previous page there is still something about this sort of thing, the idea of a retailer refusing to sell something (if it turns into that) that concerns me.

I also ultimately would not want them to be denied their free speech by having this banned or something either but that's another point.

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I'm working on a mod for Left 4 Dead 2 where all the special infected are replaced by prominent SJW figureheads. I feel this will accurately portray the struggle of today's gamer.

Let's Patreon that shit right now. If that isn't worth $10K of idiot money, I don't know what is.

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I have no truck whatsoever with people wanting to protect this game somehow out of some modified Niemoller argument; it's the complete wrong tree to bark up.

Oh gosh, well that's that settled then.

By the way this isn't just something that's been latched onto by GGs, unless you're accusing several people over the last page here and in the other thread of being GGs.

Others are interested in the issue too. Not all of us are prepared to abandon free speech and creative expression in some misguided attempt to create a better society through suppression of views we don't like, and that doesn't make any of us GG's.

That said I do know that your side of the debate are found of chucking slurs around like so much confetti, so perhaps that is how you feel.

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Oh gosh, well that's that settled then.

By the way this isn't just something that's been latched onto by GGs, unless you're accusing several people over the last page here and in the other thread of being GGs.

Others are interested in the issue too. Not all of us are prepared to abandon free speech and creative expression in some misguided attempt to create a better society through suppression of views we don't like, and that doesn't make any of us GG's.

That said I do know that your side of the debate are found of chucking slurs around like so much confetti, so perhaps that is how you feel.

I'm not accusing you of being a gamergater. Or indeed anyone still posting in this thread, even Nap.

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