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Gender Diversity / Politics in games (was Tropes Vs. Women)

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46 minutes ago, Broker said:

 

You'll just forget in two days like everyone did the last time it was suggested

 

He might, but I'm still negging everyone who replies to Jez and Neg. For all the good it'll do.

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I should have bothered scrolling down just one article as there is also this amazing (serious) piece: http://www.digitiser2000.com/main-page/tough-love-did-political-correctness-trigger-the-triggering-by-mr-biffo

 

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Here's the thing, though. If these people are fighting back, it's because they have something they feel they need to fight back against. Unfortunately - and this isn't going to be a popular opinion - there are times when I do wonder if political correctness has gone too far.

 

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I'm not sure you can liken an analytical web series and interactive fiction about depression, with people ostensibly whining too much. The former is what Gamergate has been attacking. Remember the "gamers are over" piece? That was about as un-PC as games media tends to get.

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"It would indeed be a terrible thing for Political Correctness to go too far, but don't worry.  I'm sure those rational & reasonable people in GG will let us know when we're approaching that point, so we can all just politely & calmly sit down & work out our differences."

 

Insincere Dave.

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47 minutes ago, Rev said:

 

For me that just isn't a very good piece. Rant

 

Anything Mr Biffo is by default amazing. Moc-moc-o-moc

 

I agree with his stance regardless, but that just might be my 30 year bias. 

 

Chill a little, and stay away from my bins!

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From that Biffo article:

 

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I don't want to live in a world where Twitter is dominated by comments that are designed to hurt others - but the Triggerers smell weakness, and use it to hurt. If you are too wounded to be unable to go online without that happening to you, then please take some responsibility for yourself. You have a choice. As hard as it might be to accept, you're only making things worse for everyone.

Unless, y'know, that's exactly what you want...? 

 

"Don't go online, if you think that you'll be hurt by abuse".  With a sneaky side helping of "people on the receiving end of online abuse are pretending to be hurt".  What a fucking awful sentiment to promote.

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Better things to do is something I was critiqued for too from the beginning. I don't think that's a bad sentiment to suggest.

 

It doesn't mean everyone literally go do something else, it means chill out, some things are not as important as you may think, and sometimes you're only helping the enemy by giving them what they want (and thus playing alongside in the mud with them, so to speak).

 

I shall now go walk the dog, and maybe water my plants later.*

 

*Hope the 3DS Street Pass picks up people

 

PS. And the internet can be brutal, it's the internet! It's no lie now is it. You do need to counter expectations with reality sometimes. You can hope for better, but that'll come in time naturally by itself.

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And you're right about not being able to tell a victim of sexual harassment to "get over it". But at the same time, even in therapy there has to come a point where you do say that - albeit not in such blunt words, and you do it with compassion and empathy - because otherwise the person risks becoming a victim, and getting stuck. 
 

 

That's such a fucking stupid thing to say.

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Given that Sarkeesian ignored and blocked her harassers and refused to engage with them, and is still getting abuse four years later, I think it's safe to say that short of going offline permanently you aren't going to accomplish shit.

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1 hour ago, Rowan Morrison said:

The real problem with the Biffo article is the message that it's unreasonable for people to exhibit 'out-of-control political correctness', but understandable for the GG crowd to 'feel oppressed'. And it's dressed up in 'common sense' talk, but I think it's a very disingenuous (or at least telling) piece - while he's careful to label GGers as 'unhinged' and 'repugnant' on several occasions, the labels are inevitably followed by a 'but' or a 'that said'. The targets of GG are 'crying foul, coming across like a victim' and 'fan[ning] the flames'. The Triggering crowd 'feel oppressed, because it does feel like political correctness has gone too far'.

 

Obviously I'm picking quotes here, but they are all quotes, and to my mind they're representative of the tone of article as a whole. The core message is basically 'toughen up'. And of course you've got a photo of a mouth being zipped up, which is straight out of the Big Book of Gamergate Stock Photos. In fact the more I read it, the less I like it, and I think it's arguably more harmful than a standard-issue Gamergate hate piece, because of its assumed appeal to common sense and the middle ground. But the middle ground he's talking about appears to be a place where you simply ignore organised abuse and threats of sexual violence / murder and there's no problem.

 

And indeed, Biffo appears in the comments with this beauty: 'And you're right about not being able to tell a victim of sexual harassment to "get over it". But at the same time [...]'

 

Nah.

 

I'm inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt on the sentiment, but it definitely gets worse the more you think about it.

 

To be honest, I think he's put himself under way too much pressure to keep articles coming out. You can tell the ones he's spent a bit longer on so easily and if this one had been written as it is now and then re-written and tidied on Sunday I think it'd get closer to what he was aiming for.

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It doesn't mean everyone literally go do something else, it means chill out, some things are not as important as you may think, and sometimes you're only helping the enemy by giving them what they want (and thus playing alongside in the mud with them, so to speak).

 

And the internet can be brutal, it's the internet! It's no lie now is it. You do need to counter expectations with reality sometimes. You can hope for better, but that'll come in time naturally by itself.

 

I'm not sure you can expect the situation to naturally improve if people who receive hurtful abuse online stop going online.  And the sentiment that if those people don't stop going online, they're "making things worse for everyone" is pretty fucking abhorrent.

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A lot of shit has been posted about how the Empire are bad and evil. All you hear about on NeoGaffistick is that somebody's cousin's, friend's, gardener was told that they were responsible for blowing up Alderaan - for which there isn't any proof BTW (and no anonymous posts by supposed shrill royal professional victims on 4-LOMChan don't count). But where's the balance? We never hear about the the plight of the other side. Only the other day the most up voted post on Redd5it was a picture of a Stormtrooper photoshopped to look like they were covered in faeces, with the title 'Stormpooper', imagine how hurtful that image would be to the mother or wife of a brave young man serving aboard a Star Destroyer. Frankly I find both sides reprehensible and will continue to ignore the whole thing by peridically posting long articles about it.

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I've never had teletext so never read Digitiser, my sole knowledge of it sadly comes from Neg shouting WANK! in every thread for about four years as some tribute to it or something, so I don't have rose-tinted specs over the guy- but if he's under so much pressure to produce weekly articles that he comes up with shitty analogies like that abusive relationship one, then maybe he shouldn't be producing weekly articles.

He's basically going all Littlejohn without the smart word-play- rambling on about "out of control political correctness", how victims deserve what they get by not running away etc- because harassment never follows someone. Ever. But hey, he's got black friends! And transgender friends! And because they don't use the internet as a political tool, nobody should! Everybody- know your place! He confuses the fact that people can both get on with their lives and post things on the internet, while acting as if extreme fringes are representative of entire movements as well. 

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17 minutes ago, rumblecat said:

I've never had teletext so never read Digitiser, my sole knowledge of it sadly comes from Neg shouting WANK! in every thread for about four years as some tribute to it or something, so I don't have rose-tinted specs over the guy- but if he's under so much pressure to produce weekly articles that he comes up with shitty analogies like that abusive relationship one, then maybe he shouldn't be producing weekly articles.

He's basically going all Littlejohn without the smart word-play- rambling on about "out of control political correctness", how victims deserve what they get by not running away etc- because harassment never follows someone. Ever. But hey, he's got black friends! And transgender friends! And because they don't use the internet as a political tool, nobody should! Everybody- know your place! He confuses the fact that people can both get on with their lives and post things on the internet, while acting as if extreme fringes are representative of entire movements as well. 

 

Daily articles, essentially. Mostly lists these days.

 

He's a very good writer and the stuff he puts out at his best is genuinely great. And DigitiserV1 was also great.

 

This piece definitely wasn't.

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He is now describing it as "a rant about The Triggering which lost me loads of Twitter followers!" which also feels rather GamerGateyPlaybook even as a joke. It's a bit odd.

 

7 minutes ago, geekette said:

Just read the Biffo article. What a total misrepresentation of the evidence about therapy! But I guess it reflects both training in a non-evidence-based model, and to work with only private clients. NHS mental health services aren't full of people who are "comfortable in their pain" and enjoying that identity. And therapy is first and foremost about having a trusting and respectful relationship. Saying "get over it and stop whinging" isn't therapy in anything but a Dennis Leary routine.

You should reply in the comments on there.

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31 minutes ago, rumblecat said:

I've never had teletext so never read Digitiser, my sole knowledge of it sadly comes from Neg shouting WANK! in every thread for about four years as some tribute to it or something, so I don't have rose-tinted specs over the guy- but if he's under so much pressure to produce weekly articles that he comes up with shitty analogies like that abusive relationship one, then maybe he shouldn't be producing weekly articles.

He's basically going all Littlejohn without the smart word-play- rambling on about "out of control political correctness", how victims deserve what they get by not running away etc- because harassment never follows someone. Ever. But hey, he's got black friends! And transgender friends! And because they don't use the internet as a political tool, nobody should! Everybody- know your place! He confuses the fact that people can both get on with their lives and post things on the internet, while acting as if extreme fringes are representative of entire movements as well. 

 

I like most of what Biffo writes, I think he just bought into Gamergate early on out of his own mistrust of games journos and this is the latest step in his self-de-brainwashing process. He's become a lot more lucid about it over time.

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57 minutes ago, PK said:

 

 

I'm not sure you can expect the situation to naturally improve if people who receive hurtful abuse online stop going online.  And the sentiment that if those people don't stop going online, they're "making things worse for everyone" is pretty fucking abhorrent.

 

51 minutes ago, geekette said:

It's that thing of if you go online and speak up you should expect abuse. Why? If I say that women deserve to be treated better in real life nobody will come up to me and shout abuse and threats at me - but if they did, there would be legal consequences for it. (Apart from some logistical stuff about borders, and the sheer volume of offences involved) I've never understood why those same rules don't apply as soon as the location is online.

 

Responding to both - You can't have anonymity and expect the same as real life without policing,

 

It is the best and worst feature about the internet.

 

The reason I say it's improving is because social norms are obviously changing for the better. Don't let a few bad eggs ruin the internet as we know it.

 

Do you really want to take legal action on some 13 year old for not knowing any better online? (which in my mind are the majority of spam commenters on the internet)

 

Also reminds me, on the subject of comments online versus to a persons face:

 

 

Pretty simple don't you think? Have something bad to say? Say it to the persons face. Otherwise it doesn't even mean anything (on the internet).

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I think 13 year olds are less likely to say things like that online when there aren't 30-year-old men arguing that what they're doing is completely understandable and it's up to their targets to deal with it.

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4 minutes ago, Alex W. said:

I think 13 year olds are less likely to say things like that online when there aren't 30-year-old men arguing that what they're doing is completely understandable and it's up to their targets to deal with it.

 

The figure heads certainly don't help and action towards them particularly should be taken in some way, sure.

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It's not even action that needs to be done in most cases, aside from guys like Milo who are literally sicking trolls on people. In most cases it's just a question of getting through people's thick skulls that maybe their support for Gamergate is propping up a bunch of regressive crap.

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12 minutes ago, Alex W. said:

It's not even action that needs to be done in most cases, aside from guys like Milo who are literally sicking trolls on people. In most cases it's just a question of getting through people's thick skulls that maybe their support for Gamergate is propping up a bunch of regressive crap.

 

I don't think that's been working for the majority. Surely some of the stuff Milo has said (preferably towards another person) has been terrible enough to do some sort of legal action? Especially when this person cares enough to always point out it's himself that's saying it (verified on twitter, etc). If anything not acting like a Anonymous group is going to bite him in the long run.

 

On the other hand I also doubt even 50% of GG support comes from listening to him. It's the general atmosphere of the subject that's been tainted and not much to do with figure heads. Could be wrong.

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19 hours ago, rockstarjez said:

I don't think any trends of the depiction of women in video games is particularly concerning. Because they are a fantasy! It is not real.

You don't think they're particularly concerning. Does that imply you think they might be somewhat concerning?

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39 minutes ago, Mr Cochese said:

Wait, is Mr Biffo accusing people on twitter of being thin skinned?

 

Is he particularly thick skinned on twitter?

 

Irrelevant really

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