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Gender Diversity / Politics in games (was Tropes Vs. Women)


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12 hours ago, geekette said:

The problem isn't that women aren't allowed to be sexy, or that feminists want to erase all gender differences, the point is that when it comes to knowledge of a topic, or deserving a job or a promotion, the attractiveness of your bum or how much cleavage you show should be irrelevant. Feminists penalising women for being feminine is something that isn't happening - you've internalised a straw feminist that doesn't exist in reality or at least doesn't represent the huge numbers of people that are actually feminist and simply want equal rights, equal pay, equal respect and equal bodily autonomy for women. Read back my first paragraph and try to imagine the equivalent happening to a man. Ever seen a man forecasting the weather or assisting the host on a quiz be cast for appearance and have gratuitous bum or crotch shots? Ever seen a man over 50 replaced by a younger model based on looks alone? If you haven't, don't you ever wonder how that fits with the idea that it is feminists penalising women for being feminine or sexy, rather than the patriarchal society that already existed long before feminism?

well I am basing this on comments I have read from some people in the community. such as Emma Watson (of heforshe fame which I support). a few months ago when her photo was published in a magazine and a portion of her boobs were showing she received apparently insults to dead threats on twitter, even causing her to respond publicly. same thing for her role on beauty and the beast in which she portraits an intellectual, self-sufficient and strong woman, who happens to be attractive.

 

and also based partially on that video from tropes lady. in which she overplays camera placement in video games which has to go behind the player for game-play reasons. for both for male and female characters. I think the core of her argument was that the clothes male characters were wearing did not emphasise their butt, whereas female characters wore tight trousers, that emphasise their curves.

 

I wanted to point out that I don't think that is a problem. women and men can dress differently and still have equal rights, pay, voice, etc. in your real life role, have you ever felt like you have to dress a bit like a guy to be taken as a equal? or do you feel it does not matter anymore? just curious. I have found women in my company for example dress kind of all the same. and sort of mimicking the way men dress. I hope we get to a point where that does not matter at all. and women can come to work and be taken as an equal regardless of the pink bow on their head. I want my daughter to have both. be proud of being a feminine woman (or even manly if she chooses to be) AND be taken as an equal (or superior as I am sure she'll be :D)

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Why would clothes be necessary for any job role? May as well all come to work naked.

 

Would you rather wear a suit and tie or something? Should businesses not have a dress code? Does it offend you that someone could recognize you as female from afar?

 

Tsk
 

Spoiler

Oh, and I disagree on feminism not being frowned on, it is. Same will go for Men however. I can't wait until Superman is re-modeled into a wimpish body.

 

 

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37 minutes ago, geekette said:

And you think this abuse was from feminists?

I am sure it came from various sources. the internet and specially twitter are (as we all know) a terrible place for this. but let's all face it. sadly, it partially came from the feminist community. I will give you an example. Julie Hartley-Brewer (who has written things I have found rather compelling) tweeted: Emma Watson: "Feminism, feminism... gender wage gap... why oh why am I not taken seriously... feminism... oh, and here are my tits!"

 

37 minutes ago, geekette said:

So you don't think the costumes or camera angles in video games sexualize female characters more than male ones?

they do sexualize female characters more than male ones (by a mile) when they are non-playable characters. and this is a huge problem. specially on Japanese games. because they assume (sadly maybe rightly in instances) that this is what men want. but when we are talking about the playable character I would argue this seldom is the case. unless you go back to games that came out 20 years ago. 

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12 hours ago, Oz said:

I am sure it came from various sources. the internet and specially twitter are (as we all know) a terrible place for this. but let's all face it. sadly, it partially came from the feminist community. I will give you an example. Julie Hartley-Brewer (who has written things I have found rather compelling) tweeted: Emma Watson: "Feminism, feminism... gender wage gap... why oh why am I not taken seriously... feminism... oh, and here are my tits!"

Feminism is not a single homogenous viewpoint. If one feminist says something that doesn't speak for the whole of feminism. There are various strands of feminism and some of them are sex positive and body positive. I think Russell Brand happened to deal with this one quite well:

 

But also Emma herself expresses it pretty clearly and articulately:

As she says "feminism is about choice" and "it is not a stick to beat other women with". She can show some of her skin without that undermining her intellect or politics. Listen here also about the implied coercive power of feminists to tell people they are doing femininity wrong.

 

Quote

they do sexualize female characters more than male ones (by a mile) when they are non-playable characters. and this is a huge problem. specially on Japanese games. because they assume (sadly maybe rightly in instances) that this is what men want. but when we are talking about the playable character I would argue this seldom is the case. unless you go back to games that came out 20 years ago. 

I disagree. Quiet was scantily clad in 2015 MGS. Street Fighter V was last year, not some historic artefact. Dead or Alive still exists, and beach volley ball now comes with sexual assault modes for VR. Final fantasy still has anatomically impossible female characters.

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3 minutes ago, geekette said:

Feminism is not a single homogenous viewpoint. If one feminist says something that doesn't speak for the whole of feminism. There are various strands of feminism and some of them are sex positive and body positive.

so you think she was the one feminist with that view? I don't want to be contrarian. I agree with your viewpoint so much. I think we agree about nearly everything (minus that one thing you pointed out above:D). I just want to be critical of the strand of feminism that does not subscribe to being sex and body positive. and acknowledge that sadly this is a chunk of people and not a few. I would argue they do not help the cause. I think Emma Watson and Russell Brand do wonders for the cause. they are just extremely smart people. 

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22 minutes ago, geekette said:

I disagree. Quiet was scantily clad in 2015 MGS. Street Fighter V was last year, not some historic artefact. Dead or Alive still exists, and beach volley ball now comes with sexual assault modes. Final fantasy still has anatomically impossible female characters.

I think these examples are in the minority is all (maybe not quite "seldom"). but also I have played none of those games (except maybe for a bit of FFV) so maybe that is another thing that I should consider. my sampling is biased as I have only played the games I have wanted to play. but there is no excuse for any of those. its an embarrassment to me as a "gamer". so I will let you take that one. :D

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At least I'm willing to engage.

 

She just stated that feminism isn't being frowned on and then states DOA, SF5 and FF in a pretty much frowned on view. That we should be embarrassed by such games.

 

But don't worry, because those games should exist and no one is telling them not to make or censor them. Promise. :rolleyes:

 

The fantasy of body builds shouldn't be a crime. Yes, no one in real life should aim for non-realism, I understand the harm that has done to many, but it's worth remembering fantasy is one of the reasons we play games. Street Fighter wouldn't be what it is without Chun-Li.

 

Edit: And before I break into a rant which causes people to confuse what I'm saying again, I'll stop here for today.

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19 minutes ago, DukeOfEarlsfield said:

:lol:

 

I'm sorry, I shouldn't laugh. If you put JH-B in a room with a bunch of feminists and then switched all the lights off the chances of her escaping with her life would be approximately nil.

 

She's a reactionary bigot. A younger Anne Widdecombe. Nigel Farage with tits.

 

She's the 'thinking man's' Katie Hopkins. And the thinking is in scare quotes quite deliberately.

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I think these examples are in the minority is all (maybe not quite "seldom"). but also I have played none of those games (except maybe for a bit of FFV) so maybe that is another thing that I should consider. my sampling is biased as I have only played the games I have wanted to play. but there is no excuse for any of those. its an embarrassment to me as a "gamer". so I will let you take that one. [emoji3]


They are all Japanese games.
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One of my journalist colleagues who I regularly transcribe gaming-related interviews for just came to me with an hour long interview about Anita Sarkeesian and women and gaming generally. Nothing I can share on here sadly, but I'm so happy he decided to cover this!

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On 5/6/2017 at 16:02, NEG said:

At least I'm willing to engage.

Ok, I'll take you at your word. You're just unable to engage.
I mean, fucking hell, I've tried.

Once more, with feeling...
 

On 5/6/2017 at 16:02, NEG said:

But don't worry, because those games should exist and no one is telling them not to make or censor them. Promise. :rolleyes:

 

The fantasy of body builds shouldn't be a crime.... [etc.]

NOBODY IS SAYING POOR DEPICTIONS OF WOMEN SHOULD BE CENSORED OR MADE CRIMINAL. LITERALLY NOBODY. FOR FUCK'S SAKE, NEG, YOU'VE BEEN TOLD THIS ON AT LEAST FOUR OCCASIONS OVER THE PAST YEAR. CRITICISM IS NOT CENSORSHIP.

 

READ. UNDERSTAND!

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4 minutes ago, Sprite Machine said:

Ok, I'll take you at your word. You're just unable to engage.
I mean, fucking hell, I've tried.

Once more, with feeling...
 

NOBODY IS SAYING POOR DEPICTIONS OF WOMEN SHOULD BE CENSORED OR MADE CRIMINAL. LITERALLY NOBODY. FOR FUCK'S SAKE, NEG, YOU'VE BEEN TOLD THIS ON AT LEAST FOUR OCCASIONS OVER THE PAST YEAR. CRITICISM IS NOT CENSORSHIP.

 

READ. UNDERSTAND!

 

Hence the sarcasm that it seems you've clearly missed? I even put rolling eyes for you this time. As in: this is what they'll respond with, despite still wishing it not to exist anyway with their constant pushing/examples cited. It's an opinion.

 

You can try the Bold option next time if you like.

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6 minutes ago, NEG said:

 

Hence the sarcasm that it seems you've clearly missed?

I didn't miss it, that's why I addressed it as I did. Otherwise I would have said "yes, you're right, nobody is saying that. High-five!"

 

6 minutes ago, NEG said:

As in: this is what they'll respond with, despite still wishing it not to exist anyway. It's an opinion.

Wanting things to be better is not wishing for censorship, or criminal charges. You are conflating the two and you've been told this multiple times, so why are you still doing it?

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37 minutes ago, Sprite Machine said:

I didn't miss it, that's why I addressed it as I did. Otherwise I would have said "yes, you're right, nobody is saying that. High-five!

 

Wanting things to be better is not wishing for censorship, or criminal charges. You are conflating the two and you've been told this multiple times, so why are you still doing it?

 

Okay, how about this, because I really think we're on the same page here:

 

Singular individuals like anyone in this thread may not want censorship, changes, or games filled to the brim with tropes not to exist. They simply want devs to be more considerate in future (myself included) if it fits the current vision that they may be making. (As in, ignore us if what your making is DOA Vollyball 4, or yet another Mario game. Or at least those of us with common sense enough to realize Mario doesn't require changing, for example.)

 

However, singular individuals like anyone in this thread don't seem to realize that by constantly pushing, they're getting censorship, changes, and less games filled to the brim with tropes anyway. To the point they may not exist, and also to a point where franchises we know may be changed to a point of inrecognizability.

 

You can't have cake (we want more consideration!) and eat it too (we don't want censor/less boobs to exist!). You either want certain kinds of content to be around or don't. Don't pretend otherwise. In the meantime enjoy the moral righteousness of telling developers how to think.

 

Yes, that's how change is made you'll respond with. That doesn't make SFV's Juri, or the Fire Emblem censors any less rubbish, regardless of you not wanting it to happen. It did and we'll also be getting less of it. We're to blame for it, regardless of you wanting to admit to it or not. Mission accomplished, we can feel good for the future of gaming/our children/the world we leave behind when we're long dead!

 

Unless Bayonetta 3 stays Japan only, that is. I'd be rolling in my grave over that.

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Seems I was mistaken, I thought you didn't understand what I was saying, but it's more a willingness to make it sound like I don't understand, making assumptions on what that entails and then continuing to deny the effect you may have. Which, gasp yes, has and can be negative as much as it's been positive. 

 

I'll quote you later if I can think of anything more to add, still in bed. 

 

Not every trope is equally as bad to every individual, so pretending with the 'We' doesn't work, I'm afraid. 

That doesn't mean those with different concerns shouldn't critique, wishing devs ignored certain critiques is opinion. Aka Mario. 

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19 minutes ago, NEG said:

Seems I was mistaken, I thought you didn't understand what I was saying, but it's more a willingness to make it sound like I don't understand, making assumptions on what that entails and then continuing to deny the effect you may have. Which, gasp yes, has and can be negative as much as it's been positive.

This doesn't even make sense. You have shown, repeatedly, that you do not understand the difference between criticism and censorship. That you do not understand what a 'trope' is. That you do not understand the effect they have or why they happen.

Every time, you demonstrate this.

 

What negative effect has criticism of tropes had, NEG?

 

 

19 minutes ago, NEG said:

wishing devs ignored certain critiques is opinion. Aka Mario.

You wish developers would ignore criticism? Why?

(Edit: Just to add, it's a struggle to parse your language sometimes. I'm assuming you mean "criticism" not "critiques" and "a la" or "ie", not "aka". Otherwise this makes no sense.)

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3 minutes ago, Sprite Machine said:

This doesn't even make sense.

 

Your problem, not mine. 

 

3 minutes ago, Sprite Machine said:

What negative effect has criticism of tropes had, NEG?

 

2 game examples on the previous page, do catch up. 

 

3 minutes ago, Sprite Machine said:

 

You wish developers would ignore criticism? Why?

 

That is not what I said.

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9 minutes ago, NEG said:

Your problem, not mine.

Well, presumably you want people to understand you, so it's your problem too. Unless you don't care, in which case you might as well bugger off.

 

9 minutes ago, NEG said:

2 game examples on the previous page, do catch up. 

The only games you've mentioned on that page are ones that were censored (Fire Emblem and Street Fighter?). I've already said that censorship and criticism are not the same thing.

 

So, I ask again: what negative effect has criticism of tropes had?

 

 

9 minutes ago, NEG said:

That is not what I said.

True, what you actually said was gibberish. I'm just trying to understand it.

 

"Wishing devs ignored certain critiques is opinion". - What does this mean? What are you trying to say?

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