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Gender Diversity / Politics in games (was Tropes Vs. Women)


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Everyone is forgetting that NEG managed to divert this conversation onto the subject of wet suit design and his original forays into the thorny subject of feminism was pondering the possibility of splicing human DNA with a frog.

 

So yeah. I think it's fairly safe to say he's been trolling.

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Thanks Sprite (I think?). Much like you've said, sometimes it's being devil's avocate on some issues in an attempt to make it more interesting, though more generally I do just throw out whatevers in my head to see what folks think. (and discuss)

 

I've always pointed out when I've been wrong, sorry, or just generally mis-understood something, even yesterday.

 

9 minutes ago, matt0 said:

Everyone is forgetting that NEG managed to divert this conversation onto the subject of wet suit design and his original forays into the thorny subject of feminism was pondering the possibility of splicing human DNA with a frog.

 

So yeah. I think it's fairly safe to say he's been trolling.

 

I'm not as gullible when it comes to YouTube videos these days, for whatever that's worth. I'd grown into watching conspiricies at one point (some folks might remember me posting about flouride-less toothpaste for a while out of being scared shitless of the stuff from conspiricies). Geekette generally made me understand that this isn't about frogs.

 

Edit: Nothing wrong about discussing wet suits, though. Though they'd have to relate to tropes somehow.

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3 minutes ago, Sprite Machine said:

1) Yes, it's widespread, that's what makes it a trope. You don't seem to know what a trope is if you don't realise this, and if you don't know what a trope is, you have nothing useful to contribute to a thread about tropes.

2) Should the criticism be spread (to other games too)? Yes, and they are. That is literally the whole point of the "Tropes vs. Women in Videogames" series that this thread is about. It is literally what the first three videos in the series talk about at length, the many examples of the damsel trope being used. THREE VIDEOS ABOUT EXACTLY THIS! You've watched them, you know this. Why are you asking for things that are already happening? Why are we back to page 1 asking the same stupid questions?

3) How else can a kidnapped Peach become the exception not the norm if we don't criticise examples of it happening? By what mechanism would you have the change occur (ie. what would you actually DO to encourage the damsel trope to not be used)? And why should Peach specifically be excempt from criticism and other examples not be?

 

You say that your contributions to this thread are worthwhile to the discussion, but when you ignore things that are covered in the videos themselves and make the most basic mistakes over and over, it's hard to see what you're contributing at all. This is basic day one stuff and you're still being told. You haven't demonstrated that you've learned anything yet. :(

 

Thought 3 was phrased poorly, the main point was more so: if Peach becomes the exception rather then the norm, would that be okay to folks? Sorry to make it sound like I didn't understand the concept of Tropes. Yes, obviously them being widespread makes it the trope. I also wasn't trying to imply critique wasn't being said of all things, but obviously, something like Mario is going to roll more heads then some other games. To me personally, that feels unfair, because Nintendo prides itself with being family friendly.

 

Yes, that doesn't exempt them from critique, but I see that as harsh nonetheless, for a franchise that otherwise doesn't do much else wrong, and brought kids so much entertainment and so on. Hard to push off any personal feels, I guess. (Much like most people unable to see flaws in Zelda soon after it's release).

 

3 minutes ago, Sprite Machine said:

 


"A cop on his beat might be a little quicker to reach for his gun. A judge might rule child custody one way instead of the other. A politician tries to limit our freedom of travel."

These are things that actually happen. Disproportionate number of unarmed black people are killed by police because widespread racist assumptions that black people are dangerous. Stereotypes about women being the "care giver" in family scenarios mean that custody judges overwhelmingly rule in favour of the mother not the father. People of ethnic background are more likely to be stopped and searched, or questioned before boarding aeroplanes. Minority groups are under represented in politics, news, industries. Stereotypes in the media cause assumptions in real people. Witness how often actors of middle-eastern ethnicity are given the role of "terrorist" in films and TV shows and how unoften they're the main characters. Unequal, unrepresentive depictions of people inform our assumptions of the real world, whether we want them to or not. We unconcsiously believe they represent reality.


Christ, you've got Donald Trump becoming president because, amongst other things, he convinced a large proportion of the US that Mexicans are lazy or drug-dealers. All stereotypes perpetuated by film, TV, games, and more.

 

You want examples of everyday sexism, try https://everydaysexism.com/ . These sexist views don't just pop into the heads of people spontaneously. You can't dismiss arseholes as arseholes without understanding why they are that way, what has influenced their views, and the role that our media and our art has on the cultural landscape.

 

That's how and why stereotypes are harmful. Not individually, but cumulatively.

 

All good examples, and yes, people can at times be easily swayed. Like you say however, there's many reasons people are the way they are. Whilst education helps/would help, it's not the sole defining factor to stopping racial/religious hate, among everything else you mentioned.

 

You reminded me of something actually, saw this the other day..

 

 

Perfectly reasonable video you might think, with a good message, but then I saw the comments, which I won't paste here. Some of which got 400 likes.

 

The amount of hate on display is truly saddening, to say the least.

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34 minutes ago, NEG said:

if Peach becomes the exception rather then the norm, would that be okay to folks?

Yes, that would be fantastic.

 

34 minutes ago, NEG said:

I also wasn't trying to imply critique wasn't being said of all things, but obviously, something like Mario is going to roll more heads then some other games. To me personally, that feels unfair, because Nintendo prides itself with being family friendly.

 

Yes, that doesn't exempt them from critique, but I see that as harsh nonetheless, for a franchise that otherwise doesn't do much else wrong, and brought kids so much entertainment and so on.

 

Something being family-friendly doesn't mean it won't convey sexist stereotypes. Sexism is absolutely everywhere and not for nefarious (intentional) reasons, it's usually just accidental, lazy, or unthinking. And it is especially important to point out when it happens in family-friendly media, because that is more likely to be seen by younger (more impressionable) minds.

 

More than anything, content aimed at children needs to break away from tropes that marginalise women or other groups.

 

I don't think it's at all "unfair" to hold to account a massive multi-million dollar publishing giant for the content of its work that it aims at our children. You might want to think about that some more.

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6 minutes ago, NEG said:

Like I said, It's more a point that it's hard to do for things we love.

Anita's opening line in every episode is:

 

"Remember that it is both possible, and even necessary, to simultaneously enjoy media, while also being critical of its more problematic or pernicious aspects."

 

Worth remembering.

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Bear in mind that when I started actually watching the Tropes videos one by one, and tried to make a point of every point made in the videos, again, one by one, they were largely (after 3-4 episodes, if memory serves) being ignored and considered trolling and derailment! Even though I was doing what people like Geekette asked me to do! Hilarious! I didn't bother with the last 3-4 episodes for that reason alone. If your not nodding your head obediently, they don't want to hear.

 

I don't have to spell critic properly for you. On most occasions these days however, I do. What a silly thing to bring up.

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15 minutes ago, geekette said:

This is a lie. You started watching every video that Feminist Frequency had ever produced, not the tropes series, and going through them painfully slowly point by point, refusing to watch the actual tropes series, and here we are on page 557 and you admit you still haven't even watched many of them.

 

I watched (and reviewed) 4-5 of them, that's a handful. You're probably right that I started with other videos, but the point was I got to the Tropes videos as well. Not how few I've seen in total.

 

Quote

Spelling words wrong and using the wrong word isn't resisting group think and mind control, or doing something for or against me, it is just being ignorant. If someone tried to join in a conversation about Sega games and talked about Soniq the hedgehod everyone would know they didn't know what they were talking about. It is just the same as when you show you don't know the word critique.

 

Not everyone reacts the same way. I'd find Soniq the Hedgehod funny, and draw a fan picture of this proposed new character of the fandom, and demand fan fiction to be written! It's not the same as spelling an actual real persons name wrong or in a manner the person dislikes. (Geek instead of Geekette, for example). That's when it's disrespectful.

Writing critic to you (only because you pointed it out, mind) isn't ignorance, it's called being amused because you react to such a thing. We're long past that particular spelling mistake for you to be petty enough to point out in 2017. Why don't you point out a different regular spelling mistake I do instead (believe me, there are plenty), seeing as you care so much about my literacy.

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23 minutes ago, geekette said:

So after 5 years of discussing the topic, and endless posts citing many hour-long videos you have watched on youtube you have still watched only a quarter of the tropes videos? I think you've made my point better than I ever could.

 

I think I've made my point clear (it might have been more videos, who cares? point was how it was treated in the topic), and I'm happy for you to think you've made yours. Whilst there is no doubt you know more on the subject then any of us here, I certainly keep up on what pops up on the news and am free to give an opinion on them. We friends yet?

 

23 minutes ago, geekette said:

 

Anyway, let's talk about Princess Peach, because I think that is a perfect example of where tropes fit and what can be done about them. So, we've got this twee pink princess who gets kidnapped all the time. She is finally given a game in which the male characters are kidnapped and she is the active character going to rescue them, but it is only released on the DS, and the cover art looks like the box for a sex doll, with a circular mouth and shocked/embarrassed expression:

 

Representation matters. My daughters play games and notice that the female characters are rubbish. Yet I'm reading them Good Night Stories for Rebel Girls and they are already planning how they are going to be rebel girls of the future.

 

Good for them. :) No one is defending the poor characterization of Princess Peach nor her DS game.

 

A little harsh on her art, but I can certainly see what you mean. Should absent minded (or whatever the right term is for characters like Peach, Betty Boop also springs to mind) not exist in your view? I suppose 'stupid blonde' trope character is another term for such characters, in which in the past there certainly have been too many.

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2 hours ago, NEG said:

Bear in mind that when I started actually watching the Tropes videos one by one, and tried to make a point of every point made in the videos, again, one by one, they were largely (after 3-4 episodes, if memory serves) being ignored and considered trolling and derailment! Even though I was doing what people like Geekette asked me to do! Hilarious! I didn't bother with the last 3-4 episodes for that reason alone. If your not nodding your head obediently, they don't want to hear.

NEG, I don't mean to be impolite but there isn't a nice way of explaining this. On the basis of your "contributions", you demonstrate that you aren't particularly intelligent and you don't make good arguments. Your point-by-point analyses weren't dimissed for "not nodding along", they were dismissed for being facile and shit. Tedious individual rebuttals, excuses and 'whataboutery' that failed to see the broader picture or show the most basic understanding of what the criticisms were about.

 

Also, please do bear in mind that nobody actually asked for a point-by-point commentary, just that you watched the videos because they answered questions you were asking and made clear, easy-to-follow points with lots of examples. And you still didn't do that.

 

To be frank, they are for your benefit. I don't think anybody here is even slightly interested in what you have to say about them because you lack the intelligence to make interesting or worthwhile points.

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18 minutes ago, Qazimod said:

I kind of wonder why they don't mess around and subvert the narrative clichés of the Mario platformers more often

Exactly, wouldn't it be fun to have Peach rip off that twee pink princess dress and have some practical kick-ass clothes underneath to be the protagonist in an adventure? I had a look for alternative Peach costumes and the best I could find was this:

static1.squarespace.com_.jpg

Or maybe this, if she had a proper top on:

EsDa0w4.jpg

 

But she really is a terrible character. I read that Miyamoto explained why she repeatedly plays with her kidnapper:

Quote

Time and again, Bowser kidnaps Peach. Why do Mario and Peach still race go-karts and play tennis with him?

Miyamoto: If you're familiar with things like Popeye and some of the old comic characters, you would oftentimes see this cast of characters that takes on different roles depending on the comic or cartoon. They might be businessman in one [cartoon] or a pirate in another. Depending on the story that was being told, they would change roles. So, to a certain degree, I look at our characters in a similar way and feel that they can take on different roles in different games. It's more like they're one big family, or maybe a troupe of actors.

 

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1 minute ago, Sprite Machine said:

NEG, I don't mean to be impolite but there isn't a nice way of explaining this. On the basis of your "contributions", you demonstrate that you aren't particularly intelligent and you don't make good arguments. Your point-by-point analyses weren't dimissed for "not nodding along", they were dismissed for being facile and shit. Tedious individual rebuttals, excuses and 'whataboutery' that failed to see the broader picture or show the most basic understanding of what the criticisms were about.

 

Also, please do bear in mind that nobody actually asked for a point-by-point commentary, just that you watched the videos because they answered questions you were asking and made clear, easy-to-follow points with lots of examples. And you still didn't do that.

 

To be frank, they are for your benefit. I don't think anybody here is even slightly interested in what you have to say about them because you lack the intelligence to make interesting or worthwhile points.

 

Well, that's a long way to call me stupid I guess. I don't make myself out to be clever, but I'm not below you, mate.

 

I gave what I assumed would be best, point by point easy to follow stuff, much like the videos you suggested. I'm sorry that wasn't enough for people, but remaining argumentive wasn't a solution, neither then nor now, towards my thoughts. Certainly debate my points, but simply calling things wrong is, well, you get the idea. (not that I haven't done the same at times, fair enough)

Also, maybe the videos didn't explain everything in some cases, thus needing clarification. Because I r stupid haw haw!...not funny.

 

Not funny at all, mate. Especially after a day of chatting.

 

@geekette Or maybe something like this? (her Bayonetta costume)

 

bayo_peach_thumb.jpg

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Just now, matt0 said:

 

Come on people. If there was any ever doubt NEGs intentions in this thread you should all know what he's up to at this point.

 

But a stronger character is a start, and part of the point Geekette was making. Bayonetta is still miles better in the character department then Peach.

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45 minutes ago, geekette said:

Exactly, wouldn't it be fun to have Peach rip off that twee pink princess dress and have some practical kick-ass clothes underneath to be the protagonist in an adventure?

 

Doh, I deleted my post before I knew it was quoted as I haven't played certain Mario games and I don't know if I'd be talking crap (worrying about narrative in the Mario universe, I know :rolleyes: ), but (to reword my point) from the games I have played the narrative is so loose and the characters so shallow that there's little risk in changing the roles more. You're given scraps of narrative context either in intros (e.g. New SMB) or between levels ("our princess is in another castle!") but the motivation of "chase Bowser and reclaim the stolen thing" could suit anyone from Waluigi to Peach to Toad to Rosalina. :) 

 

EDIT: heck, WarioLand had Wario stealing treasure to fund an extravagant castle - he doesn't give a damn about princesses ;) 

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29 minutes ago, NEG said:

Well, that's a long way to call me stupid I guess. I don't make myself out to be clever, but I'm not below you, mate.

You're demonstrably less intelligent and most of your posts are garbage. It's impossible to debate the things you say because most of what you say makes no sense or misses the point, and yet you blame others for that.

 

Like, you've just posted a picture of Bayonetta in STOCKING and HIGH HEELS in response to Geekette's comment about practical clothing. PRACTICAL CLOTHING! HIGH HEELS!

"But a stronger character is a start" is completely irrelevant to the costume, then! Like, you could have posted a picture of literally ANYBODY and it would have been a stronger character than Princess Peach, so what has that got to do with Bayonetta's shitty impactical constume?! Nothing! It's pointless, it says nothing, it makes no point, it's irrelevant!

 

SEE?! I'm "debating" with you and it's pointless, because the points you're making are utterly fucking stupid, reactionary, facile, irrelevant, point-missing garbage!

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6 minutes ago, Sprite Machine said:

You're demonstrably less intelligent and most of your posts are garbage. It's impossible to debate the things you say because most of what you say makes no sense or misses the point, and yet you blame others for that.

 

All I can say is I believe you are wrong, without having to insult you like you are doing to me right now (and in healthy small amounts yesterday as well). If you can't understand, fair enough. I'm not blaming 'all' others for the past Trope video impressions having gone sour, either. You have a habit of grouping things I say to mean a lot, rather then specifics.

Our chitchat started with you over the last day, hope you remember that.

 

Quote

Like, you've just posted a picture of Bayonetta in STOCKING and HIGH HEELS in response to Geekette's comment about practical clothing. PRACTICAL CLOTHING! HIGH HEELS!

"But a stronger character is a start" is completely irrelevant to the costume, then! Like, you could have posted a picture of literally ANYBODY and it would have been a stronger character than Princess Peach, so what has that got to do with Bayonetta's shitty impactical constume?! Nothing! It's pointless, it says nothing, it makes no point, it's irrelevant!

 

SEE?! I'm "debating" with you and it's pointless, because the points you're making are utterly fucking stupid, reactionary, facile, irrelevant, point-missing garbage!

 

Correct that I could have posted any character and they would have been better then Peach, yes. I wasn't responding in regards to clothing as you might realize inbetween your shouting and insulting. I posted a stronger female character in Peaches clothing. That is all.

 

Please stop calling people you choose to debate with stupid, thanks. You are not far from reporting.

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It's almost like it's not worth even discussing with him in the first place. If only we could ban him from this discussion and allow only serious, interested parties to contribute, instead of wasting their time with circular arguments that only ever accomplish one thing, distracting from the topics of discussion. He's doing it because he's the type of repulsive individual who would specifically target a discussion about these issues to destroy, but he's allowed to do it forever because we only have one mod who thinks it's an issue.

 

And we're wasting our money supporting that pathetic, spineless decision.

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