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Gender Diversity / Politics in games (was Tropes Vs. Women)


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2 hours ago, geekette said:

Nothing is a better metaphor for the problems with sexism in gaming than the sexists who periodically come and post in this thread that we are all being over sensitive and po faced about this trivial issue, which only reflects the unsolvable problems in society. Rather than being able to make any legitimate justifications for these tropes they just attack the straw feminist or white knight that exist in their imagination. I've started to recognise that these are the attack-as-defense responses of people who feel threatened and baked into a corner. Ironic how they try to frame themselves as strong and assertive plain-speakers cutting through all this namby pamby politically correct nonsense, or funny, which by no coincidence are the gender roles they have been trained are most acceptable.

 

You really want to remove the mote from your own eye first. When I suggested a number of months ago that pregnancy might be a factor in women's wages being lower, people chimed in with how this was a caveman attitude and what is this, the 70s.  It was cited as a factor (one of many) in a recent ONS report.

 

Moreover, I said that was a eglatarian and not a feminist, and that feminism can be counterproductive people will be quite happy to put up straw man arguments against that position, or suggest that it is just a front for something nastier. Your 'I've begun to recognise this pattern as my very own straw man..." is a perfect example.

 

Part of the reason this thread gets accused of being a bit of an echo chamber is that there is more than a bit of truth to it.

 

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Thing is, a lot of people - myself included - entered this thread way back when and we're all like "hey, this isn't really such a big deal is it?" or "How do you fix game X, then?" or even "so what, they want to ban this shit?". 

 

Difference is, when someone engaged with me and explained a different viewpoint I empathised and accepted it. Instead of rejecting / ridiculing it. 

 

It has become an echo chamber through discussion and empathy. It hasn't always been that way. 

 

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2 hours ago, NEG said:
  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

5 part discussion from 2015.

 

Edit: I do hope some actually give this a listen. You can continue demanding less Peach kidnapping, and similar demands, afterwards. :rolleyes:

Have you actually watched any of these? What do you think they bring to the discussion?

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27 minutes ago, Anne Summers said:

 

Well considering it was recently discovered that there was a group of people acting with the specific agenda of upsetting Geekette on this forum, you can't really blame her, surely?

 

I wasn't referencing that grouping (which I also dislike, even with valid justification in the end), but the people that post in this thread being grouped, which is what she did in that post. Stating an opinion here is not victimhood.

 

Quote

And it isn't "once every blood moon". Taking yourself specifically as an example, just about every post you make prompt attempts at reasonable engagement, even when it's basically the same stupid thing you're saying over and over again. People on this forum are remarkably tolerant of other people's views, even when they are stupid, in comparison to many other places online. 

 

Sorry, but I didn't see Sprite's discussion with me as reasonable engagement. Or the way many reacted in the last two days in general.

 

It's all said and done now of course, I'd rather not dwell on it, but it's worth saying the above so that you try not to take your statements as fact.

 

Thanks for calling my comments stupid, by the way. You are among good company here as a result.

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3 minutes ago, Anne Summers said:

Feminism is intrinsically egalitarian. It's impossible to be an egalitarianist (?) and not be a feminist. 

 

I disagree. I think that by focusing on gender, it tends to force things into gender politics. If you wear sunglasses, the world gets tinted.

 

Plus you get the thing where people go ""But X happens to men too" with the inevitable reply "Oh what about the men! It's 100 times worse for women and this is just a deflection". It's probably true it's 100 times worse for women. But the dismissal of someone else's problem isn't good. It might be a deflection, but it's an effective one because there is truth behind it.

 

Part of that previous argument was that you had to care about about the white men whose word was changing fundamentally too. And at least one person said they didn't not care, they are privileged. A month later we got Trump, driven in part by anger of the white working class. 

 

But people disagree. Grand, reasonable people can. I'm sure someone can go back and trawl me saying something stupid or badly explained too: I probably did. But the automatic assumption here is that anyone that does not agree with the assumptions of the thread is that they are sexist bad people.

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31 minutes ago, David Kenny said:

Have you actually watched any of these? What do you think they bring to the discussion?

 

Just part 1 and got caught up in a more recent (March) podcast shes in (now subbed to her channel). But so far: Very much the anti-Geekette on this topic, I think I like her. :) To me says some very interesting things. Before you say what things, give it a listen.

 

Edit: This also looks interesting:

 

 

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2 hours ago, NEG said:

You can continue demanding less Peach kidnapping, and similar demands, afterwards. :rolleyes:

It's this sort of shit that makes people not take you seriously when you say you're "just having a reasoned debate"

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16 minutes ago, Darren said:

So you do believe in equality for women?

 

Wow it's like a replay of the last time.

 

I believe in equality for everyone. That includes women.

 

Then you go "So you're feminist then"

 

Then I go "No feminism is a political movement"

 

Then there is a tedious argument over what I mean, whether feminism is just a dictionary definition, classic japes about the feminist committee or whatever, debates on whether Margaret Thatcher was a feminist, until everyone gets very grumpy.

 

I've no desire to do it again. No one's mind was changed.

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1 hour ago, kensei said:

 

Wow it's like a replay of the last time.

 

I believe in equality for everyone. That includes women.

 

 

So you're a feminist then.

You're wrong about feminism being a political movement though. It's an idea. There are certainly political movements which have incorporated feminist ideas (eg, all of the left wing and pretty much all of the mainstream ones). The problem is that you seem to have taken your definition of "feminism" from those who over the years who have attempted to discredit it by labelling it as a political movement. Pushing the idea that those who preach feminism are doing it in order to gain power for themselves or further other agendas, besides creating a climate where men and women have equal rights.  

 

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1 hour ago, NEG said:

 

Just part 1 and got caught up in a more recent (March) podcast shes in (now subbed to her channel). But so far: Very much the anti-Geekette on this topic, I think I like her. :) To me says some very interesting things. Before you say what things, give it a listen.

 

Edit: This also looks interesting:

 

 

Frankly if I'm going to spend two and half hours of my life doing something, I'd like some idea of why it's worth it. I started reading the article the youtube videos are a reading of and it was entirely about how fans of Sarkeesian had bullied this woman, and some whataboutery regarding Sarkeesian saying that we should believe women who say they have been abused (essentially saying this was a terrible thing to say because some men do get falsely accused).

 

Is there more in there if I persevere? Where is she going with it?

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14 minutes ago, David Kenny said:

Frankly if I'm going to spend two and half hours of my life doing something, I'd like some idea of why it's worth it. I started reading the article the youtube videos are a reading of and it was entirely about how fans of Sarkeesian had bullied this woman, and some whataboutery regarding Sarkeesian saying that we should believe women who say they have been abused (essentially saying this was a terrible thing to say because some men do get falsely accused).

 

Is there more in there if I persevere? Where is she going with it?

Read the first chunk of it, it's the same old tired "Anita doesn't compare mistreatment of women to mistreatment of men, which makes the game look REALLY BAD."

 

Not worth the time.  No wonder NEG likes it! 

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3 hours ago, Anne Summers said:

 The problem is that you seem to have taken your definition of "feminism" from those who over the years who have attempted to discredit it by labelling it as a political movement. Pushing the idea that those who preach feminism are doing it in order to gain power for themselves or further other agendas, besides creating a climate where men and women have equal rights.  

 

 

Firstly, Feminists themselves propose political action to advance their cause, it's not an invention of their enemies. The idea is mind blogging for so many reasons I just don't even. The suffragettes were a feminist campaign, for God sake.

 

I never said Feminists are doing it to gain power or promote themselves. Not withstanding every political movement has power grabbers, hangers on and carpet baggers, I believe the vast majority are quite sincere. It's depressing you associate political movements with, basically, corruption. I just think the focus on gender can become counterproductive, both in terms of understanding and fixing problems, and building political support for progression causes. And I find some of it and the wider new left around it downright odd or worrying. Safe spaces and checking privilege is beyond me. I could well just be too old and the inner Tory is finally coming out. But I don't like anything that stifles Democratic debate or free speech.

 

That doesn't mean I wouldn't agree with a lot of feminist positions. Or support particular campaigns stared or championed by feminists. I'm fairly left wing. I just do not want to identify myself as a feminist.

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3 hours ago, kensei said:

 

Wow it's like a replay of the last time.

 

I believe in equality for everyone. That includes women.

 

Then you go "So you're feminist then"

 

Then I go "No feminism is a political movement"

 

Then there is a tedious argument over what I mean, whether feminism is just a dictionary definition, classic japes about the feminist committee or whatever, debates on whether Margaret Thatcher was a feminist, until everyone gets very grumpy.

 

I've no desire to do it again. No one's mind was changed.

 

Yeah I think this is fair.

 

My view in those situations is essentially, call me a feminist if you like but don't expect me to call myself one.

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I just find it mind boggling that there are people out there and in here who still have a problem with the label. I don't meet people like that in real life. Everyone I know is happy to say they are a feminist and understands that it simply means believing sexes should have equal rights and opportunities. Since this discussion got going I've taken it upon myself to ask several people directly "Are you a feminist?" And the answer every time has been along the lines of 'well,durr, of course I am? Who isn't ?"

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A  portion of men are dicks. I don't want to identify as a man. 

 

A lot of British people wanted to leave the EU, I don't want to identify as British. 

 

Some gamers are misogynists. I don't want to identify as a gamer. 

 

Is the the same logic, then, or have I misunderstood? @kensei

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