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Gender Diversity / Politics in games (was Tropes Vs. Women)


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1 hour ago, dood said:

A  portion of men are dicks. I don't want to identify as a man. 

 

A lot of British people wanted to leave the EU, I don't want to identify as British. 

 

Some gamers are misogynists. I don't want to identify as a gamer. 

 

Is the the same logic, then, or have I misunderstood? @kensei

 

I'm a Belfast Republican, so I definitely do not identity as British.

 

It's not that people are dicks. It's that, as best I can gather, even the non dicks support and obsess over stuff I don't believe or think is counterproductive to progressive causes in addition to stuff I agree with. So I don't want to associate or identify as one. But it's also aspirational. I don't want to be a feminist. I want to be an eglatarian. A true one. 

 

But on any case, if you have too many or too loud dicks, it's natural people will shy away from identifying with something. When being a gamer meant

being a nerd less people did it. If it means being a Gamergater less people will too.

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1 hour ago, Anne Summers said:

I just find it mind boggling that there are people out there and in here who still have a problem with the label. I don't meet people like that in real life. Everyone I know is happy to say they are a feminist and understands that it simply means believing sexes should have equal rights and opportunities. Since this discussion got going I've taken it upon myself to ask several people directly "Are you a feminist?" And the answer every time has been along the lines of 'well,durr, of course I am? Who isn't ?"

 

That's not a red flag for "Bubble"? Like you don't look at Trump and Brexit and think maybe it's not a representative group?

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You can never silence me.

 

Where you guys are erring is by equating the plight of women with, say, the suffering and injustice encountered by black people. 

 

You're doing this because you don't think.

 

The white man with the privilege is oppressing women with the insidious way they portray them in the media!! Painting them as damsels in distress!!

 

Bullshit. Black people are oppressed because Africa didn't develop technologically and economically the way Europe did. So the asshole Europeans could exploit them.

 

Women never had a disadvantage like that. If men built society it's because women sat there quite happily and let them, I'm afraid, and if there's somebody to blame then blame olden days women. Not modern man.

 

That's really where you must start. As Uncle Mike madly pointed out, 50% of the Army and firemen are now women. So how did men get to shape the world? When they have the same tools?? Answer that while at the same time saying there's no difference between men and women. 

 

So yeah, I'm afraid, women, unlike other oppressed peoples you had all the advantages right from the start. You were the right colour, lived in the right country. Had access to the latest elephant guns with which you could defend yourself and you fucking blew it. Big time. And what man would want you now? So it's a bit late to cry about some man portraying you as not the hero when frankly you've never really been that heroic. 

 

I'm afraid that's just the brutal truth. Men and women are different. Asshole white men tend to make the rules. It's the way it's always been. But women, keep in mind most men just like all women aren't heroes either. When I see Donald Trump or Chris Pratt doing their stuff I don't think that they're scoring points for team MAN. So am I a feminist? No. I'm a humanist.

 

I like women. I play as Rosalina in MarioKart and sometimes even a black Shyguy.

 

An interesting footnote is that the developer had access to Anna Sarkesian's Spelunky account. She played for 76 hours and never once changed the person being saved to a man. You know why? Because who can fucking be bothered, right?

 

In conclusion. If woman want to shape the future they should start shaping the future, not asking men to shape it for them. And perhaps accept some of the blame for the mess they got themselves into. Rather than pointing fingers and gossiping on the bus.

 

 

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No. I'm not disparaging women. I think they're great. Very different to men. And that's great too. It's about thinking. You gotta think. *Taps head*

 

I could blunder around saying it's outrageous women are portrayed more as motherly figures than men are.

 

 

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No need to thank me. You wait though, that post I made could well redefine gender politics completely.

 

Could give birth to a new Anne Sarkesian. This one with a YouTube channel encouraging women, rather than attacking men. One earning respect rather than demanding it.

 

How pathetic does an earnest discussion about the sex of a NPC in Spelunky look now? Very pathetic, that's how pathetic. And yes. That's down to me.

 

It's a shame I had to ruffle some feathers doing it but that's what it takes for real social reform.

 

 

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37 minutes ago, joe bazooka said:

How pathetic does an earnest discussion about the sex of a NPC in Spelunky look now? Very pathetic, that's how pathetic. And yes. That's down to me.

 

no you just stuck a cherry on the top of a big pie of pathetic.

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1 hour ago, joe bazooka said:

No need to thank me. You wait though, that post I made could well redefine gender politics completely.

 

Could give birth to a new Anne Sarkesian. This one with a YouTube channel encouraging women, rather than attacking men. One earning respect rather than demanding it.

 

How pathetic does an earnest discussion about the sex of a NPC in Spelunky look now? Very pathetic, that's how pathetic. And yes. That's down to me.

 

It's a shame I had to ruffle some feathers doing it but that's what it takes for real social reform.

 

 

 

Anita*

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7 hours ago, joe bazooka said:

An interesting footnote is that the developer had access to Anna Sarkesian's Spelunky account. She played for 76 hours and never once changed the person being saved to a man. You know why? Because who can fucking be bothered, right?

 

The last time I came in to this thread we'd just explained patiently to somebody why she thought that switching the damsel in distress to a man wasn't an effective solution. :lol:

 

I sometimes think this forum is set to write-only.

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3 hours ago, joe bazooka said:

This one with a YouTube channel encouraging women, rather than attacking men.

 

Yeaaah, you're one of those guys who's never actually watched anything she's put out, aren't you?

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He's right. pack it up everyone. No point in being concerned about gender equality when racism hasn't been solved yet. Because as we all know, it's impossible to tackle more than one issue at once.

 

1 hour ago, NEG said:

Anita*

You're right Neg, that's the only mistake he made in his posts. Everything else was flawless.

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21 minutes ago, clippa said:

Well I think this thread is a bit too serious.

 

The subject of a joke and it's target aren't always the same thing. I think it's safe to say that this thread has become stale and a bit of an echo chamber, 

 

 I want this thread to be an echo chamber, no one should be arguing that women are well represented in video games and that these tropes don't exist.

 

I don't want the same, carbon copy, pink bow characters. A want games designers to create interesting and complex characters not just revert to lazy character design.

 

I don't really understand why people wouldn't want this too.

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I'd rather we started digging further than that to be honest. Why stop at just getting people to accept that women are badly represented in the medium? Acknowledging a problem in of itself is useless without some form of amendment. 

Fair enough that the whole point of Tropes vs Women was to show evidence of there being a problem but now that the evidence is laid out bare for all to see why not try and move this thread towards talking about the next step?

Perhaps if we do that the thread can address new topics while (if we really have to) still covering the same topics that have been occasionally popping up over the last 5 years.

 

So no lets not let this thread be an echo chamber, echo chambers echo for a reason, they are empty, devoid of anything which we can gain further value out of, they relay only what you put in with nothing to be gained or learned. Let's mine this chamber for all it is worth and see what we discover.

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4 hours ago, clippa said:

 

Yes, but that's a shame though, isn't it? It's reinforcing the old stereotypical view of the militant feminist in doc martins, stony faced and totally lacking in humour.

 

It seems like you're pushing that stereotype yourself to be honest, simply by comparing our behaviour in here to it, when in reality the discussion in here has been reasoned in tone, polite and inclusive. No one has said everything has to be po-faced and serious. Look at the range of reactions someone like Rockstarjez provokes. You can see that the most common response isn't the "outrage" he seems to think he generates, it's piss-taking. The only person that anyone really complains about having a voice is Neg, and he is clearly a very special case. 

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