Gender Diversity / Politics in games (was Tropes Vs. Women)

[Nick R]

Ian Miles Cheong has a Sun column?

 

Whatever next? Cacophanus getting a column in Forbes or somewhere?

 

 

[memories]

Who?

[The Bag]

Here's the thing though, you'd think Boogie would be a moderating voice in all this - if I'm reading correctly and his nervous breakdown was due to interactions on the internet. 

[Unofficial Who]

So you've probably noticed that I've changed the title to Gender Diversity / Politics in games.

 

There's a few reasons for that. Obviously the Kickstarter was funded and the episodes (and counter episodes) have all been released and discussed. But this seems to have become the mega-thread for discussing feminism and gender politics in gaming related topics. So rather than close or split off the threads we'll still use this one for now.

 

A few guidelines.

 

-Some knowledge of past discussions is encouraged. If you come in here asking why Anita should be allowed to make her videos don't be surprised if other posters either tell you to read some of the earlier content (or even quote earlier posts.)

 

-Robust debate is encouraged, abuse is not. Essentially if you're resorting to calling someone a c--- then you're not only bringing the thread down you're also admitting that you've run out of valid points.

 

-No dogpiling. It's tempting to question someone over and over with a disenting opinion, sometimes though you're just going to have to agree to disagree.

 

-No circular arguments for pages and pages. Again, see above. Sometimes you'll have to agree to disagree.

 

If you can think of any other guidelines to add, PM me.

 

There's a couple of other issues outstanding. The mods are currently discussing changing modding for politcal threads or moving all political threads to their own folder. If you have views on how this thread should be modded or where it should sit in the forum feel free to debate it in Announcements and feedback. (I'm not a mod so better to petition them than me.)

 

Thanks again for the past few years of interesting discussion and debate on the topic.

[Benny]

And if you're new to the thread pop NEG on ignore before reading, as he's a self confessed troll, more so in here than most places.

[Unofficial Who]

And here's the reason I wanted to broaden the scope of the thread. Just read this piece which came across as somewhat condescending at best, at worst it talks about enforcing traditional gender roles on people while papering over any depth.

 

But hey I'm possibly biased. Let's have a look.

 

http://www.theage.com.au/business/comment-and-analysis/gone-gaming-why-young-men-are-walking-away-from-work-20170706-gx6dcj.html

 

A team of researchers in the United States might have just cracked one of the biggest mysteries in economics. It's why young men are vanishing, in Australia as well as overseas.

A decade or so back we had a good idea of where they were. Of the Australian men aged 15 to 24 who weren't in school or higher education, an impressive 85 per cent were working.

That was back in May 2007. By May this year it had fallen to 78.6 per cent. That's one in every five young men not in education now not working, up from one in every seven a few years back. An extra 51,000 young men have "gone dark", slipped under the statistical radar.

And hardly any women. Young women not in education are about as likely to work as they used to be.

No-one's too sure what the young men are doing. Tragically, our Bureau of Statistics hasn't run a time-use survey since 2006. We don't know who supports them - is it girlfriends, is it parents? And we don't know why they are not working or if they'll start. Might they have suddenly found work hard to get? It's possible. These days there are fewer (traditionally male) manufacturing jobs and far more (traditionally female) healthcare and social services jobs. Might the minimum wage have priced them out of work? It's unlikely, because young men are also falling out of work in the United States.

Between 2000 and 2015, the hours worked by American men in their 20s slid 12 per cent. The slice of those not in education who'd been out of work for at least a year jumped from 8 to 15 per cent.

It isn't showing up in the unemployment rate. America's unemployment rate is very low, lower than Australia's. That's because most of these men aren't looking for work. They're doing something else. And, in America at least, we've a good idea of what it is.

 

Cue scary organ music.

 

In the US, they still conduct a time-use survey. Every year they ask thousands of Americans where they were at each moment of the day, who they were with, and what they were doing.

Young men cut back on work by an average of 2.5 hours per week between 2004 and 2015. All of it became extra leisure time, an astonishing 1.9 hours of it extra "recreational computer time", and 1.4 hours of it "gaming" – using computers to play video games.

Before 2004 gaming was small time. Massive multiplayer online games hadn't been invented. There was no World of Warcraft, the graphics weren't lifelike. Gaming has swiftly become very, very attractive. But mainly to young men, not women. That couldn't be why they are deserting work, could it?

Mark Aguiar, Mark Bils, Kerwin Kofi and Charles Erik believe it is. Economists at Princeton University, the University of Rochester and the University of Chicago, they believe the increasing quality of video games explains half of the retreat from work of young men since 2004.

 

What a load of rubbish. The economy is failing the young with not enough jobs to go round. Who's to blame? Those feckless men playing video games rather than working. Because if a man isn't working what is he good for?

 

Also that nice jab at lazy men being funded by their poor girlfriends or wives. Not sure how it plays out in the UK but in Australia if you're married and your partner is working? No dole. If you live with your girlfriend who is working? No dole. If you sleep with your flatmate and they work? No dole. (Australia doesn't recognise gay marriage but if the dole office wants to make your life hard they'll declare that you might be sleeping with your same sex flatmate and then your stuck in the weird position of proving legally that you aren't.)

 

It's just such an amazing out of touch article.

 

[macosx]

I heard something about that on Radio 4 @Unofficial Who about two weeks ago, where it said that these young men who didn't have work were being supported more by parents, living at home and having an easier escape into online worlds and gaming where they could achieve goals rather than face reality.

[Unofficial Who]

4 minutes ago, macosx said:

I heard something about that on Radio 4 @Unofficial Who about two weeks ago, where it said that these young men who didn't have work were being supported more by parents, living at home and having an easier escape into online worlds and gaming where they could achieve goals rather than face reality.

 

Which should be preferable to hanging out on street corners or in snooker halls like they did in the old days surely. But yeah, it was just a weird angle for The Sydney Morning Herald/The Age to take. (For those unfamiliar with Australian media those two papers have a reputation for being slightly left leaning.)

[smac]

17 minutes ago, macosx said:

I heard something about that on Radio 4 @Unofficial Who about two weeks ago, where it said that these young men who didn't have work were being supported more by parents, living at home and having an easier escape into online worlds and gaming where they could achieve goals rather than face reality.

 

cf. Hikikomori in Japan. Which is apparently an official condition according to wikipedia:

 

Quote

The Japanese Ministry of Health, Labour, and Welfare defines hikikomori as a condition in which the affected individuals isolate themselves from society in their homes for a period exceeding six months.

 

[Dig Dug]

Was just about to bring that up. I wouldn't be surprised if Hikikomori does begin to become a thing in western countries over the next 20 years.

[Unofficial Who]

15 minutes ago, Dig Dug said:

Was just about to bring that up. I wouldn't be surprised if Hikikomori does begin to become a thing in western countries over the next 20 years.

 

Same here. Along with the unpaid overtime culture and the associated health risks.

[Illyria]

Is there a thread about general diversity somewhere on Rllmuk, or race specifically? This one is all about gender so I don't want to dilute discussion but I think race is also important and I just saw a 9gag post that really pissed me off

[Unofficial Who]

5 minutes ago, Illyria said:

Is there a thread about general diversity somewhere on Rllmuk, or race specifically? This one is all about gender so I don't want to dilute discussion but I think race is also important and I just saw a 9gag post that really pissed me off

 

Quite tempted to make it broader, I think people were about 50/50 when I bought it up last time.

 

Is it games related or just about diversity in general?

 

[Illyria]

Just now, Unofficial Who said:

 

Quite tempted to make it broader, it think people were about 50/50 before.

 

Is it games related or just about diversity in general?

 

 

Wasn't games related, had to do with the new Spiderman movie so I just chucked it in that thread for now. Maybe a general thread about diversity in OT? It's such a broad subject though so I'm not sure... would that then just refer to "modern" media, or also politics and society in general. Hmmmmm. 

[Unofficial Who]

Just now, Illyria said:

 

Wasn't games related, had to do with the new Spiderman movie so I just chucked it in that thread for now. Maybe a general thread about diversity in OT? It's such a broad subject though so I'm not sure... would that then just refer to "modern" media, or also politics and society in general. Hmmmmm. 

 

There's sort of a feminism thread in Off Topic in Are You a Feminist?

 

Not sure if there's a general diversity thread in there yet (or how long it would survive.)

[Illyria]

Right, feminism is already covered. I think I'll see if any discussion comes off that post in the Spiderman thread, if so it can always be split off into a new OT thread about "white-washing" and race diversity in general and this one here can stick to gender diversity and videogames, I think that's best.

[Unofficial Who]

It's difficult sometimes to work out whether or not this is the right thread for some topics given where it sits in the forum. For instance there's a great article about the GG crowd and what their next project is. Was going to post it here but decided that the US politics thread was a better place to post it.

[Petrousgyre]

Just start a new thread, no? @Illyria

 

edit: you do that whilst I learn to read properly. 

[Talvalin]

@Illyria - Can you post a link to that thread for reference please?

[Illyria]

Of course, sorry!

 

No discussion ensued though, might make a proper thread (but now I'll have lunch and then I really need to play Mass Effect)

[Unofficial Who]

I've just been given a heads up.....Neighbours is tackling video games and gender issues in it's latest episode including harrassment by an ex and online comments.

 

(This link is probably been geoblocked. It screened in Oz on the 11th July)

 

https://tenplay.com.au/channel-eleven/neighbours?psearch=Google_Neighbours&gclid=Cj0KCQjw7pHLBRDqARIsAFyKPa57h3ffi0R7OEBoZY8T1PBhvYVpTmsfU5_jH1RXpyQd_SB3Nhck_rEaArLBEALw_wcB

 

Edit, comments have not been kind.

 

 

[minkee]

"My feminism will be intersectional or it will be bullshit"

 

"There is no such thing as a single issue struggle because we do not live single issue lives."

 

Ie. Ask a black woman whether the discrimination she faces is because of her skin or her gender - you can't separate them, she lives on the intersection of those two things. 

 

Racism is 100% relevant, or all you will have here is White Feminism.

[earlymodernsteve]

I agree but argued for a separate thread to increase visibility. You're right to point out it's more complex than that though. I guess, ideally, it'd be ok to cover a lot of these things in individual threads but then the same arguments would probably get repeated even more than they do in here.

[minkee]

Make as many other threads as you like, but don't ban wider discussion from this one.

[Nick R]

YouTube Thingies.

 

 

Spoiler

Hi, I'm a YouTube Thingy. I talk abt gaming, geek culture, the only two genders and Hitler's good ideas. Feminism is cancer
 

Hi, I'm a YouTube thingy. My name is rational thingy. I'm all abt rational thinking. It's all women's fault they won't Fuck me. I'm rational
 

Hi, I'm a YouTube thingy. I believe there is no God. I hate Islam bc they make women cover up so I can't ogle them AND they won't Fuck me
 

Hi, I'm a YouTube thingy. I film myself overreacting to terrible horror games. I also him myself complaining about Jews
 

Hi, I'm a YouTube thingy. Having been kicked out of my mother's house I have found another woman to leech off. Her name is Anita Sarkeesian
 

Hi, I'm a YouTube thingy. I have no original ideas. My most popular video was stolen from black creators. I have a beard
 

Hi, I'm a YouTube thingy. I hate games but I hate women more. Also I think pedophilia is okay. My name is Milo. Buy my book
 

Hi, I'm a YouTube thingy. I have no opinions. I hang out with Nazis but I'm a good guy. You can trust me. Do you like games?
 

Hi, I'm a YouTube Thingy. Harassing women pays the bills. I mean its terrible I can only say that online bc I can pay my internet bill, see?
 

Hi, I'm a YouTube thingy. I'm not a racist, I'm a race realist. I dress like a guys and dolls extra and I like to hold a glass on camera
 

Hi, I'm a YouTube thingy. Google is a near infinite source of porn but I lose my shit if a game removed a sexy thirteen year old
 

Hi, I'm a YouTube thingy. A game/movie didn't do what I wanted so I found a woman involved and forced her to quit existing
 

Hi, I'm a YouTube thingy. I pull *pranks* on ** ppl** for *** fun***

* Assault
** Women
*** I am a cis male who had never been slapped
 

Hi, I'm a YouTube thingy. I rail against victim complex. Not 1 of these crybaby snowflakes know what it's like to be called a garbage human
 

Hi, I'm a YouTube thingy. I'm literally only capable of my career via white privilege
How dare a woman use her sexuality for her profit
 

Hi, I'm a YouTube Thingy. I used to SJW but then I saw my bfs last bank statement & I flipped faster than a Nintendo dev conference table
 

Hi, I'm a YouTube thingy. 
I make up stories for clicks 
If someone gets hurts lol oh well.
All I did was make up a story. Y u mad.
 

Hi, I'm a YouTube Thingy.
I live in my moms basement & make more than nurses
Now let's talk abt refugees & the death of western civilization
 

Hi, I'm a YouTube Thingy
I collect money and favours from publishers to talk about games

Have u heard about gamergate? Man, the collusion!
 

Hi, I'm a YouTube thingy. I called a woman a whore but I wasn't being a misogynist, no, I was criticizing.
Marketplace of ideas, mate
 

Hi, I'm a YouTube Thingy. I routinely insert my voice into the speeches of smarter people. I'm a skeptic
 

Hi, I'm a YouTube thingy.. I pay poor people in poor nations to hold up racist signs. 

This is Satire
 

Hi, I'm a YouTube thingy
On 1 side is racism, fascism, homophobia, misogyny
... And it desires to b heard out! Both sides, man. Be objective
 

Hi, I'm a YouTube thingy.
I tell young men the reason their sexcount isn't as high as their killcount is interracial mixing
 

Hi, I'm a YouTube thingy. I had a rival. I swatted his twitch. He almost got killed. Did I mention he's black? All's fair
 

Hi, I'm a YouTube Thingy
You know, YouTube comment pages have been a hellscape since day dot but you know what the problem is?
Tumblr
 

Hi, I'm a YouTube thingy. 
My childhood was ruined by four women pretending to bust ghosts 
Please, take me seriously
 

Sorry, felt like I had to add this
Hi, I'm YouTube thingy
I throw black women under the bus
I am a black man
I meat for my alt right bros

 

[MDY]

Milo sells a whopping number of copies of his book on it's UK launch!

 

Spoiler

152!

 

https://inews.co.uk/essentials/culture/books/milo-yiannopouloss-dangerous-book-sells-152-copies-uk/

 

 

He also reckons his book has sold 100,000 copies in the US..

Neilsen Bookscan figures reckon it's actually..

Spoiler

18,000

 

..and then there's the US launch party for the book:

Spoiler

However, while the sales may have failed to leave much of a mark, the New York launch party for the book reached almost cartoonish levels of edginess. Featuring costumed dwarf performers, “jihadi strippers” and a Hillary Clinton impersonator, one of the guests of honour was Martin Shkreli, the pharmaceuticals executive who racked up the price of crucial medication used by people with HIV.

 

[Don Rosco]

152! That's cheered me right up.

[Unofficial Who]

On 12/07/2017 at 19:08, minkee said:

Make as many other threads as you like, but don't ban wider discussion from this one.

 

An excellent point. Discussion of such won't be banned here. I'm still open to change the thread title to encompass all issues to do with diversity in gaming.

 

I get @earlymodernsteve 's point but it doesn't seem to be discussed anywhere else but in this thread.

[Unofficial Who]

OK, here's a piece that's going to cause some debate.

 

https://mic.com/articles/180888/erik-wolpaw-chet-faliszek-old-man-murray-untold-origins-of-gamergate-harassment-abuse-gaming-culture#.iSy1drEZe

 

This guy makes the case that Old Man Murray is somehow responsible for creating GG. It's a pretty long bow to draw and personally I think there are other later events that created the culture. I've loved some of the old OMM stuff on design, especially things like StC ratings (how many seconds you play a game before you see a crate), their article on why adnventure games died and their work on Portal 2 was amazing...

 

...but Jesus Christ, some of the cherrypicked quotes in that article are the worst. The absolute worst. It's a pretty hard read.

 

There's already a debate here http://www.metafilter.com/168183/the-most-sacred-of-sacred-cows

 

 

[Unofficial Who]

As a counterpoint to the above from the metafilter thread

Quote

But OMM is also a product of an internet era where frankly, a lot more of us were shitlords and our moral standards were lower. This is at least partially the byproduct of who was on the internet back then: a lot more young men with a poorly calibrated sense of their own privilege. I was one of them. I'd like to think I wasn't so bad, but I remember being in IRC channels where people would send me the marketing materials for a Descent clone called Forsaken (read: NAKED WOMEN) because fuck, man, isn't she hot? A lot of us, even if we didn't necessarily take part directly in edgelord culture, were definitely adjacent to it.

 

People who have been targeted by Gamergate, like Sarah Nyberg and Zoe Quinn, have talked about their past teenage selves trolling in IRC channels and being shitty people. More generally, people in this thread have talked about Something Awful goons being awful people, and then turning into upstanding members of society (and even adopting progressive politics). All this is not to absolve OMM of its misogynist writing, or even to claim the people behind it have changed (although I really hope they have!). It's to suggest that the internet of two decades ago was in some ways a weird fever dream where everyone felt free to say the most transgressive, offensive shit on a regular basis, and some people recovered and some people didn't.

 

 

I think that's an interesting counterpoint, I'm guessing when Erik and Chet posted some of their more offensive stuff almost 20 years ago they had no idea that 20 years later it would still be up for anyone to read.

 

Edit:not sure that gets rid of the awful and the bit that's confronting for me I guess is realising that 20 odd years ago I would have seen some of the bits quoted and just ignored it.